Flurry of Manuevers question

[Petty Alchemy]

So, there's the intuitive way I imagined FoM to work (same as FoB, except extra attacks are only maneuvers), but I've found the text to be a little different.

1: FoM says your BAB for CMB purposes is equal to monk level, but otherwise it isn't. So you get your iteratives slower, even in FoM.
2: On the other hand, the -2 penalty is only to maneuvers, so at least your stunted BAB attacks are at full bonus.
3: At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. The plurality here confuses me. The additional -3 penalty is only on the second maneuver, right?

If you were a lvl8 Maneuver Master, your flurry would look like (without other mods):
+6 attack, +6 CMB maneuver, +1 attack, +3 CMB maneuver.

Is that correct?

[Kazaan]

There are three ways to interpret this that people have debated:

1) You start with -2 to maneuvers (including both the bonus maneuver and replacing a normal attack with trip, sunder, or disarm). Once you've made your second bonus maneuver, the net penalty goes up to -5 and applies not only to the second bonus maneuver but also to subsequent maneuvers that replace normal attacks. Once you execute your third bonus maneuver, you net -12 to that and any subsequent "melee maneuvers" you sub in for normal attacks.

2) You start with -2 to all maneuvers. Once you hit lvl 8, all maneuvers from the start of the FoM take -5 penalty, regardless of how many bonus maneuvers you actually take. Likewise, when you get your third bonus maneuver, all maneuvers from the start get -12.

3) You get -2 to all maneuvers, but the extra -3 applies only to the second maneuver and the pluralization was an error. Likewise, the -7 applies only to the third maneuver and any maneuvers you sub in for normal attacks remain at -2.

Personally, I like the third reading best. It keeps things consistent and doesn't make you play accounting with whether the bonus maneuvers happen first or maneuvers subbed in for melee attacks do. But it relies on a presumption that RAW doesn't support; that there is an error in the writing. I feel that the second reading is complete garbage and makes the entire archetype worthless except as a dip which you stop before you hit lvl 8. It imposes a harsh penalty automatically just for the fact that you've hit a certain level and the whole ability has "ranked up" which applies cumulative penalties across the board. So, ideally speaking, reading 3 is the best followed in close second by reading 1. Reading 2, unfortunately, is what most people insist on when confronted with the ability in complete disregard of any and all common sense and rationality.

[blahpers]

I read it as 2, with the qualifier that the player only gets the additional -3 to all maneuvers if she adds that second extra maneuver. The monk is still free to FoM with only one extra maneuver at -2, but two extra maneuvers would be at -5 each.

[Petty Alchemy]

I think 3 makes more sense as well, since the wording for -3 and -7 is different from the -2 which is explicit about applying to all.

It would be counter intuitive for the monk to get worse (relatively) as he levels up.

[Lord_Malkov]

I read it much like I would read a modified Rapid Shot.

You can make one additional maneuver as part of a full attack by taking -2 to all maneuver checks that round.

At level 8, you can choose to make two additional maneuvers by taking -5 to all maneuver checks that round.

At level 15, you can choose to make three additional maneuvers by taking -12 to all maneuvers that round.

The number of maneuvers (like rapid shot) is chosen by the Monk when he starts his full-attack action.

Essentially, the maneuver master can use the lowest BAB extra attacks that he would have gotten from Flurry of Blows to attempt maneuvers that otherwise couldn't replace attacks.

Flurry of Blows:
1st:–1/–1
8th:+6/+6/+1/+1
15th:+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3

Flurry of Maneuvers:
1st: Full Attack:+0 Maneuver BABs:-1
8th: Full Attack:+6/+1 Maneuver BABs:+1/+1
15th: Full Attack:+11/+6/+1 Maneuver BABs:+3/+3/+3

Comparing the two, this all makes sense and the abilities match up pretty well.

[Petty Alchemy]

It seems rather weak to be going at it with +3 maneuvers at level 15. I think your math just proves to me that method doesn't make sense.

There's pretty much no progression from 1st lvl -1 to 15th lvl +3.

I think it makes more sense to read it as TWF than Rapid Shot.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Lord_Malkov wrote:

I read it much like I would read a modified Rapid Shot.

You can make one additional maneuver as part of a full attack by taking -2 to all maneuver checks that round.

At level 8, you can choose to make two additional maneuvers by taking -5 to all maneuver checks that round.

At level 15, you can choose to make three additional maneuvers by taking -12 to all maneuvers that round.

The number of maneuvers (like rapid shot) is chosen by the Monk when he starts his full-attack action.

Essentially, the maneuver master can use the lowest BAB extra attacks that he would have gotten from Flurry of Blows to attempt maneuvers that otherwise couldn't replace attacks.

Flurry of Blows:
1st:–1/–1
8th:+6/+6/+1/+1
15th:+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3

Flurry of Maneuvers:
1st: Full Attack:+0 Maneuver BABs:-1
8th: Full Attack:+6/+1 Maneuver BABs:+1/+1
15th: Full Attack:+11/+6/+1 Maneuver BABs:+3/+3/+3

Comparing the two, this all makes sense and the abilities match up pretty well.

You're looking at the wrong numbers. It should be:

Flurry of Blows:
1st:–1/–1
8th:+6/+6/+1/+1
15th:+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3

[Zahmahkibo]

I agree with blahpers and Malkov. You declare how many maneuvers you are making at the start of the flurry action. For each additional maneuver you choose make, a cumulative attack penalty is applied to all maneuvers (whether additional or replacing normal attacks) made during that action.

So, -2 with one bonus maneuver, -5 with two, and -12 with three. It doesn't seem that great compared to Flurry of Blows, I agree, but at least you can do it in armor.

[Petty Alchemy]

That's the RAWest of RAW readings though. I'd separate FAQ it up, I'd wager highly that FoM was supposed to have the same limitations as FoB, it's just that the no armor clause is general and separate, rather than a part of all the abilities it disables. (Same with Ki Pool extra attack in flurry).

Unless they've said it's intentional.

[Zahmahkibo]

The armor question has been asked and FAQ'd many times, and always gone unanswered.

The Sohei monk archetype had a somewhat similar issue. It modified the monk's Weapon and Armor proficiency section, and omitted the Flurry of Blows restriction. The archetype's designer posted on the forums and said he had not intended to change the FoB requirements, but when the Sohei it finally made it to the FAQ last month, the armor allowance was (mostly) maintained.

So, there's a precedent. The community consensus, when the Maneuver Master armor question occasionally arises, usually touches three points: 1) FoM in armor probably wasn't intended, 2) but it works anyway, 3) and it serves to balance a somewhat underpowered archetype.

[Apocryphile]

I have a question relating to Flurry of maneuvers which is tangential to this, so my apologies.

If a tengu monk was making a full attack with their natural attacks, would they be able to use the additional combat maneuver from flurry of maneuvers, and if so, would the natural attacks remain primary natural attacks (as no manufactured weapon has been used), or would the natural attacks all become secondary?

The flurry of maneuvers ability makes no mention of not being usable with natural attacks, so I suppose the first answer is yes. But does using the maneuver mean -5 to all the natural attacks? That'd seem a bit harsh..

[James Risner]

Petty Alchemy wrote:

1: FoM says your BAB for CMB

2: On the other hand, the -2 penalty is only to maneuvers
3: The additional -3 penalty is only on the second maneuver, right?

If you were a lvl8 Maneuver Master, your flurry would look like (without other mods):
+6 attack, +6 CMB maneuver, +1 attack, +3 CMB maneuver.

Is that correct?

1) Yes MM Monk is "Full BAB" for the purpose of Maneuvers.

2) Yes ever maneuver is at -2
3) Yes the second one is at -5 and the third is at -12 at higher level.

My read conforms to Kazaan's 3rd version of the RAW.

I don't know which is correct, but his 3rd is the cleanest in my view.

[Lord_Malkov]

Apocryphile wrote:

I have a question relating to Flurry of maneuvers which is tangential to this, so my apologies.

If a tengu monk was making a full attack with their natural attacks, would they be able to use the additional combat maneuver from flurry of maneuvers, and if so, would the natural attacks remain primary natural attacks (as no manufactured weapon has been used), or would the natural attacks all become secondary?

The flurry of maneuvers ability makes no mention of not being usable with natural attacks, so I suppose the first answer is yes. But does using the maneuver mean -5 to all the natural attacks? That'd seem a bit harsh..

Sure, as long as you aren't using a manufactured weapon to perform the maneuvers. Flurry of Maneuvers is not flurry of blows, and does not have the armor or weapon restrictions that flurry of blows has.

[R2D2TS]

James Risner wrote:

1) Yes MM Monk is "Full BAB" for the purpose of Maneuvers.

Just to expand a little on this one. You only have "Full BAB" on the bonus maneuvers initially. Once you get Maneuver Training at 3rd level all maneuvers will use "Full BAB". So any swapped attacks prior will use the regular BAB.

Relevant portion in bold in the spoiler below.

FOM:

PRD wrote:

Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks. This ability replaces flurry of blows.

[Apocryphile]

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Apocryphile wrote:

I have a question relating to Flurry of maneuvers which is tangential to this, so my apologies.

If a tengu monk was making a full attack with their natural attacks, would they be able to use the additional combat maneuver from flurry of maneuvers, and if so, would the natural attacks remain primary natural attacks (as no manufactured weapon has been used), or would the natural attacks all become secondary?

The flurry of maneuvers ability makes no mention of not being usable with natural attacks, so I suppose the first answer is yes. But does using the maneuver mean -5 to all the natural attacks? That'd seem a bit harsh..

Sure, as long as you aren't using a manufactured weapon to perform the maneuvers. Flurry of Maneuvers is not flurry of blows, and does not have the armor or weapon restrictions that flurry of blows has.

Good point. So if a manufactured weapon is used in any way, e.g. to do a combat maneuver, the natural attacks would become secondary. That makes perfect sense to me, cheers!