Hello,
Our "tank" left the group and now the dagger rogue would be our only melee , so I decided to stop playing my kitsune sorcerer and make a "tank".
I can use the rolls from my old sorcerer and will start at Level 3 like the rest of the group.
The rolls are 18 17 16 13 12 11
So my first idea was this Paladin
Race: Aasimar (Angel-Blooded)
Class: Paladin (Oath of Vengeance or Wyrm)
Ability Scores:
Str:19
Dex:11
Con:16
Int:13
Wis:12
Cha:20
Traits:Prince(Intimidate),Eyes and Ears of the City(Perception),Dangerously Curious(UMD),Reactionary
Feats:
-1 Fey Foundling
-3/5 Antagonize(my "taunt")/Power Attack(I want to use a greatsword)
-7 Angelic Blood
-9 Angelic Wings
-1 Fey Foundling
-3 Greater Mercy
-5 Ultimate Mercy
-7 Angelic Blood
-9 Angelic Wings
I'm not sure which traits I should take because I'm not sure if I Need the perception and initiative.
Which feats do you guys think would be more useful for a greatsword wielding Paladin who is the "tank" of the group.
I really like "Fey Foundling" so i want to keep it , it sounds very useful because I am sure that I will get hit quite often.
My other idea was a Kensai (maybe bladebound) but we never had one in the group so I'm not sure if he can really tank. Just from the spells and feats his AC looks good and he has some other useful "Tools".
Does anyone have more experience with a "tanking" kensai?
It would be nice if someone could share his build with me , using my rolls on top and preferable being human with a katana (i'm allowed to use weapong finesse for the katana)
I'm also open for other builds , but I would like to be able to use magic.
Thanks in advance
paladins have awesome survivability- which makes them great 'tanks' as much as there are such things in pathfinder... unlike in video games, in pathfinder if an enemy isn't killing you effectively he/she/it will most likely try to get past you to kill something more frail (that's possibly hurting it even more). so, if you want to 'tank' you need to address that in some of the following ways:
- positioning. have you seen 300? whenever possible try to fight somewhere narrow, that way enemies can't get past you and your magic/ranged damage dealers can do their thing in relative safety. wall spells and summoned creatures can also help create these situations.
- maneuvers/control. sometimes just being able to stop someone/thing from moving is enough. early on, trip is awesome for this (especially with reach); at higher levels (more creatures flying and whatnot) you'll need a new trick, but bottomline- if they can't move past you they'll have to fight you.
- be a threat. enemies can't ignore you if you're doing enough damage. a high str 2handed weapon build is a good start, just be careful not to focus too much on healing because your damage may start to lag (you can pick up Arcane Strike thanks to your racial SLA for a nice little damage boost, though you can't use it the same round as LoH). try to make sure the group understands this- haste, for example, becomes a defensive spell for the party wizard because it gives you one more big swing/round (and increases his fleeing speed).
- taunt. this isn't nearly as potent as you might be expecting if you're used to video game tanks, but it was a nice addition, especially for paladins. you can only target a creature with the intimidate version 1/day. it's great for pulling a baddy off a wizard, but it won't be a 'go-to' ability in most fights (when just attacking will usually be more valuable).
with those things in mind, think about maybe something like this for feats:
1- Fey Foundling
3- Power Attack
5- Antagonize
7- Arcane Strike
9- Intimidating Prowess (if antagonize is being useful, otherwise-Weapon Focus, or Furious Focus)
as for magus tanking- i think its possible... but it would require more set up time. their survivability is definitely lower than a pally. to tank you need to rely a lot more on spells: shield right away, blur and mirror image early on, then displacement and the monstrous physique spells (for bonus Nat AC, and Con boosts), and eventually stoneskin. if you know a fight is coming (or you're clearing a closed area fast enough for min/lvl buffs to last the whole time) you can get up a few of these buffs ahead of time and be in good shape, but if you're caught unaware you're gonna have a tough go at it. i like the kensai archetype, but it'll be even harder for them to tank (especially early on) because they give up armor use and have less spells total (which will make it very difficult to cast all the defense they need and still be enough of a threat to keep things attention).
conclusion- i like your race and stat array (think about maybe taking a 1 level dip in Lore Oracle, sidestep secret lets you use Cha instead of Dex for AC and Ref). for traits, i'd (personally) go with eyes and ears of the city and reactionary (because as a 'tank' you really want a chance to get out in front and influence how the battle develops); if nobody else has UMD then take dangerously curious instead and whatever else you want for the second one (Blessed Touch is a small bonus but it adds up over time, especially if you're LoH yourself a lot).
You may also use several 1st level spells in place of Antagonize such as Challenge Evil and Compel Hostility. This would free up that feat slot for something else.
-MD
Thanks for the advice,
I like that idea with the Oracle and I think I'm going that way.
Taking Fey Foundling and Power Attack.
For my traits I'm going to use Dangerously Curious and Reactionary , the other Party members will have a much higher perception anyway.
Which curse would you recommend ?
I'm thinking about haunted or tongues.
I'm still playing around with a kensai or normal Magus build as a tank though. I like the Utility the spells offer while "tanking" , why take hits if you can put enemies in a web.
well, not to split hairs, but what you're actually talking about there is 'control'... in many parties a good controller will remove the need for a tank. and magi can do a fair job of it- they don't have the pure magical control capacity of a full caster, but they have the flexibility to include some melee control through combat maneuvers and (with the proper buffing) to even 'plug the gap' if you can get enemies to engage you in/at a bottleneck (as mentioned in my first post).
Well, I am just going to throw this out there, but if you are starting at level 9 (you said this is a replacement character, and the builds you suggest seem focused around there), then might I suggest a brawler archetype fighter?
I say this because that archetype gains an important ability at level 9: "No Escape". This allows the brawler to make an attack of opportunity against just about any type of movement from adjacent squares. This is meant to be combined with a specific feat (which the designers actually force you to take at level 13 if you hadn't already through an ability) called Stand Still, which allows you to turn movement-provoked AoO in adjacent squares into a maneuver that stops that movement.
So basically, you just move next to a target, and then you can keep them from moving from that spot. This works fantastically with the highly encouraged TWF style. Just charge in and then make full attacks until the target is dead.
Plus, it can help you keep high DPR enemies from targeting your squishier party members. And even if the enemy has ranged attacks/magic, their ability to use them will be hampered through the "Menacing Stance" ability, which gives a scaling debuff to anyone next to you (up to -4 to hit and -7 to concentration checks.)
Admittedly, this choice lacks the high saves of the paladin build, but it does have enough feats to throw around that you could just take some save boosting feats. Not quite as good, but it could suffice. Although you also miss out on all that self healing too. Well, you don't get much out of brawler after level 9 (although level 13 does give you 1/2 your fighter level in bonus to the stand still's maneuver). Maybe go into paladin after that for a small bit of extra tanking ability?
I will start at level 3 my builds were just till level 9 because I am not sure how long this "campaign" will be.
It's the first PF group for most people because the group wanted to try a new pen and paper game.
Maybe after this we are going to run an AP with new characters.
I didn't see the legalistic curse because I don't have the book for it , but yes it sounds like the best for that paladin. Besides that the punishment will come from heaven and not from hell.
Your stats are good enough where you don't have to dip oracle.
I like the regular Aasimar myself, giving up the daylight SLA in favor of a STR boost, then I keep my bonus on perception and diplomacy.
Angel Wings actually cannot be taken until lvl 11, unless you are retraining your lvl 9 feat once you get to lvl 10.
STR 19 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 13 WIS 13 CHA 20
Traits: Extremely Fashionable (+1 on Diplomacy and Intimidate, and you get it as a class skill); Seeker (for wider deity access)
Magical Knack is another good trait to look at.
Oath of vengeance is over rated, a lot. Most things you need to kill will be one-shotted if you smite it, making it a waste of a smite and thus a waste of resources. The extra damage from Power Attack using a two hander will really make smiting not necessary.
Oath Agaisnt the Wyrm I love, though giving up channel energy has hurt me in the past. Access to flight is more for Human paladins though, so you can probably avoid that too.
Fey Foundling, Power Attack, Unsanctioned Knowledge are all gems.
Best spells to pick up are Wrath (if you don't go vengeance), Bladed Dash, Haste, and Divine Power. A bump to your CL (from Magical Knack?) will help with those a lot. Alter Self is okay, but better on human builds so they can get their hands on Darkvision, which you already have.
Angel Blood, and Angel Wings are also good, but with natural fly speeds you need to remember that you have to have ranks in Fly to be able to do anything maneuverable in combat. An ioun stone of +2 INT with Fly as its associated skill is most likely the cheapest way to go about it assuming you don't actually wanna waste skill points on Fly.
That's pretty much the consensus of the thread so far. I really like the feats Furious Focus and Death From Above, which by level 16 is +10 to your first attack if you make it from the air, RAW it also negates the -2 AC from charging, though RAI it doesn't.
You also said you were interested in a magus? Any particulars on race/feats?
I didn't see that "character level 10th" requirement for angel wings. I guess we are going to play without retraining first.
I went with the prince and dangerously curious traits now(the character can still be changed till tomorrow)
I start to like unsanctioned knowledge more and more , especially because of bladed dash and haste.
Thanks for the advice with the ioun stone , it looks like I won't have enough skill points for "good" flying , how many points do i need?
Well about the Magus , I would prefer a human Magus (preferably a kensai) with a Katana (i could use finesse for it) or a wakizashi.
For the wakizashi i'm allowed to use a version of dervish dance, using calligraphy instead of dance.
If it's possible I would like to add craft wonderous items to the magus build. Because we don't have another character in the party who is going to take it.
If you are gonna be flying, you should have Fly maxed, you have a pretty low DEX mod and you are going to have an Armor Check Penalty to worry about. The Fly spell gives you a bonus on Fly checks based on CL, but because this is a natural Fly Speed you won't be getting that. By level 10-11 when you can get the feat you should have enough money to pick up the ioun stone.
Kensai is really unattractive to me, not that giving up armor is especially bad, because Mage Armor exists. But having to use Mage Armor while still losing out on spellcasting really seems to hurt your resource pool.
Personally I would stick straight Magus or go Hexcrafter.
A katana cannot be used with weapon finesse, a Dueling Sword can though. The trait Sword Scion is actually really good and flavorful for this build if you are gonna go kensai.
The main point of the kensai is to have access to those fighter feats like focus, grater focus, specialization, and eventually greater specialization, and Sword Scion is like having Weapon Focus a 3rd time.
On any build, I like to recommend taking Spell Focus (Evocation) and Spell Specialization (Shocking Grasp). At 3rd level your Grasp is already at it's 5d6 max damage.
Magical Lineage will allow you to apply a +1 spell level metamagic for free, so at 5th level when you get a free metamagic feat you can pick up Intensified Spell and have your Shocking Grasp do 7d6.
At 9th level you can take Greater Spell Specialization and cast your Intensified Shocking Grasp in place of any spell slot you have above a cantrip, and at lvl 15 with spell perfection you can add quicken to that for free. So if you need some help with that, any spell slot can be used to deal an extra 10d6 electric damage as a swift action through a free melee attack. Only problem is that if you are casting it spontaneously you won't be able to use Spell Combat. Spontaneous Metafocus fixes that pretty easily.
Spell Specialization may seem to lose its flare after lvl 8, but it really doesn't. Remember that +2 CL also applies to SR.
So build kinda looks like this:
1) Weapon Focus(Dueling Sword); Weapon Finesse; Spell Focus (Evocation)
3) Spell Specialization (Shocking Grasp)
5) Intensified Spell; Craft wondrous Item
7) Weapon Specialization (Dueling Sword)
9) Greater Spell Specialization
11) Spontaneous Metafocus; Quicken Spell
13) [metamagic feat]
15) Spell Perfection
17) Greater Weapon Focus; Greater Weapon Specialization
Personally I think Weapon Finesse and going Kensai is a bad choice and you can do a lot of the same stuff with a similar build and have more resources.
magi don't get mage armor (presumably because 'they' wear armor... except for kensai whose AC is gonna be rocky for a while)
magi don't get mage armor (presumably because 'they' wear armor... except for kensai whose AC is gonna be rocky for a while)
There's an Arcana that will let them pick it up.
Also, why Dangerously Curious? What spells do you not have access to that you need to waste that skill rank on?
My GM allowed me to use a Katana with finesse or using dervish dance with a Wakizashi.
As a kensai i would start like.
Ability Scores:
Str:13
Dex:17
Con:16
Int:20
Wis:12
Cha:11
Feats:
-Kensai EWP (Katana),Canny Defense,Weapon Focus(Katana)
-level 1 weapon finesse (Katana)
-Human combat Reflexes
-level 3 power attack
-level 3 magus arcana: wand wielder
-level 5 craft wondrous item
-level 5 Bonus feat intensified spell
Don't know about a scimitar/wakizashi build though , basically i can use the scimitar but call it a wakizashi
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Something a little different.
Check out the avatar.
This build does just as well as a Human or Half-orc.
I went for Half-orc for darkvision. Our GO loves darkness.
Now the awesome thing about the Sacred Servant is the DOMAIN.
See I chose the Tactics Domain cause it let's you caster ally role 2x on initiative and with the feat selection I chose the WEAPON MASTER power is brilliant.
You see at low levels, tripping is by far the best CM, since it let's you Debuff your foes (-4 AC/attack), grants an AOO when they stand and limits their actions.
I am at level 10 now and It still works most of the time even on Large foes.
But for WEAPON MASTER, you meet the preqs, for a Ton of awesome feats, usable as a swift action.
Cleave.
Felling Smash.
Improved X maneuver
Blindfight
Cornugon Smash
Gtr Trip
Etc. The utility is wicked!
Unsanctioned Knowledge is also sweet.
I chose VANISH (unethical but let's you reliably sneak for 5 rounds unseen, +20 mod for Sir Clarks alot)
Instrument of Agony because Daniel likes to use Intimidate.
Slow- great for battle with tons of mooks. Your WIZARD should really be using HASTE as soon as it's available.
You can save smite for bosses.
Good 4th level spells include
COWARDS LAMENT (aggro spell)
LEASHED SHACKLES (battle control targets reflex)
SHARED WRATH (party buff, stacks with divine favor)
Divine Favor is nice BUT. Haste already grants an extra attack. Since you take FORTUNE'S FAVORED trait, Divine Favor is worth +4 to hit and damage anyway and who cares about the temp HP? You have a bazillion with Fey Foundling.
Another Domain to consider (as if Paladin’s didn't do enough damage already) is the RAGE SUBDOMAIN.
Granted by Ragathiel. He is LG.
heck, your a RAGING PALADIN.
THINK ABOUT THAT.
and what about call planar ally instead of Divine bond?
Think of the utility of having an always around Hound Archon with at Will Gtr teleport?
Want a mount? HALF CELESTIAL HIPPOGRIFF!
@ Daniel: SOLD! where can i sign?
Would you still dip oracle ?
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Nah,
I'd Massage the Daniel Arrisen build depending on your game and GM.
(It's my build btw)
I had ORIGINALLY intended to make him Half-orc so I could go
1-Fey Foundling
3 - Combat Expertise
5- Blindfight
7- Improved Trip
8- Weapon Master Power
9- Unsanctioned Knowledge (to learn Blur)
11- Moonlight Stalker.
This makes a decent Tripper who is mega durable and gets +2 to hit and damage, whenever he casts BLUR!
It's fine by RAW but my DM didn't like the idea of a Stealth Paladin using illusion and misdirection to boost melee.
Rather than sulk, I just rolled with the setup you see in Daniels avatar. (Which is still freaking awesome)
What you can do instead is take the Bully and Fortune Favored Traits.
Bully makes INTIMIDATE a class skill and adds +1 (so you can face Diplomacy or scare) and use weapon master for CORNUGON SMASH and drop SHAKEN on foes you power attack.
That's the Tactics Domain version.
If you go with Ragathiel as your patron and the Rage SUBDOMAIN, go with Human.
1- Fey Foundling, h- Combat Expertise
3- Improved Trip
5- Combat Reflexes
7- Cornugon Smash
8- You Get RAGE!
9- Gtr Trip
11- Felling Smash
With the rage build get a Furious Weapon.
The Tactics build is very much a select-a-feat build. Almost feels like a fighter. Has plenty of Strike power anyway.
The Rage build is still a trip monkey with but once you are stacking Divine Favor,RAGE, Smite, enemies just explode.
Btw, definitely DO NOT dip Oracle.
The whole sidestep secret thing?
Who cares? Most Reflex saves are just hp damage and again you have soooo many from Fey Foundling. It just delays your pally progression
With Fey Foundling even the 750gp Wand of CLW does 1d8+1+2 hp for you.