Goblin Squad Member
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Does Goblinworks intend to allow players to grind Achievements in-game to earn Goblin Points to be spent in the Goblinworks Cash Shop?
Live from GamesBeat 2013 - there will be new video! (Nightdrifter's link to the video)
In that presentation, Ryan mentioned they were modeling their Cash Shop system on Turbine's. Turbine lets players grind out achievements in-game to earn Turbine Points, which are their Cash Shop currency. Does Goblinworks intend to include that particular aspect of Turbine's model?
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be fair, Turbine's achievements don't really give enough shop points to do more than whet one's appetite. You don't really earn enough to buy anything material without further monetary investment from the player.
That's not really true.
If you do all the Deeds in each area where you quest, you should generally be able to keep buying the next area of content. If you do the same on an alt, you can easily accomplish that. It's grindy as all get out, but it can be done.
[Edit] I guess it's neither true nor false, it's an opinion. I wasn't into buying the cosmetic outfits and such, so being able to buy the next zone's content seemed like plenty to me.
I think he just meant cuz Turbine has a subscription/cash shop hybrid model or whatevs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I just did a little research and I overstated it a bit. It looks like you can earn about 200 Turbine Points (think $2) in each of the normal zones (Ered Luin, North Downs, etc.). It would take three or four runs through a particular area in order to be able to pay for the next.
I think I remembered it the way I did because my wife and I were each playing four or five characters, and I remembered getting a significant amount of Turbine Points after getting all those early-ish Deeds on all my characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think he just meant cuz Turbine has a subscription/cash shop hybrid model or whatevs.
It wouldn't surprise me if he used Turbine as an example because their cash shop and free-to-play model has been so successful, and it certainly wouldn't surprise me if there were significant differences between Turbine's model and what Goblinworks ends up with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be fair, Turbine's achievements don't give enough shop points to do more than whet one's appetite. You don't really earn enough to buy anything material without further monetary investment from the player.
It's a deliciously evil way of getting people to start drooling over cash shop items, like the infamous drug dealer way of sucking people in: "the first taste is free".
I'm all for it.
I've played DDO extensively and can say one can easily earn the Turbine Points on needs to buy pretty much anything if they can do the grind. Turbine even has a mechanic where you can relevel your toon to gain more power and redo all that Turbine Point farming all over again. It is a bit grindsome (well... very grindsome) but they allow players to buy the content they need without spending a dime if they so choose. However that is not the real money maker. Otto Boxes, raid timer resets, tomes, outfits and the like are where most people spend their points on from my experience observing conversations with guildies. Most go sub to start then transition to a Premium account.
Nothing that's P2W except with the addition of the Astral Shard auction house where one can buy some/most of the higher end loot.
Personally I just went with a sub because it was too much of a hassle with all the gaps in content that you had to buy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about F2P players having to buy "the rights" to be able to trade (thus affect the economics of the game?). Or to be able to join a social element of the game eg Factions of player groups?
I think if they are running around doing stuff they are already getting value for playing for free. Then those above are quite valuable additions that probably are work a small fee? Certainly they could only buy bundles to be able to trade and not be able to unlimited trade without also subing/skill-training atst? Just a couple of thoughts.
Achievement grinding to spend on stuff in game, I've no idea about. I'm sure there are people who are time rich and cash poor who might like that? *shudders*
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally really like Turbine's setup with DDO's hybrid model, as I've said. It accommodates a lot of different types of players in that free time vs available money spectrum.
I don't really worry about too many people grinding and staying entirely F2P. So long as the grind only gives small increments (like Nihimon said, run through an area 4-5 times to unlock another area, but obviously different from that because this isn't a themepark) of Cash Shop funds, it can keep some people in the game who wouldn't be in it otherwise, for lac of IRL funds.
I think the most obvious problem I see is automation of grinding leading to Cash Shop currency. One possible solution is to keep the bonuses as one-time only deals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In GW2 (free after purchase with cash-shop) you can freely exchange in-game gold and cash shop gems for each other. So with real money you can trade for in-game gold to buy things in the game or you can work on getting in-game gold and trade it for the gems to buy cash shop stuff.
In Wurm Online (F2P with skill cap, premium subscription with complete skill gain) everything is paid for with in-game coin. You can purchase a month of premium time in-game with the same coin that you purchase goods and services from other players. Players can choose to purchase premium directly at Wurm's website or coins. Those are the only things sold out of game. There is no difference in price for a month of premium vs the amount of coin you would get to pay for a month of premium. Players actually purchase/own/build their own land called a deed. Deeds have a monthly upkeep with the price based on the size of the deed which can be sized as the player wishes. So there is a good cycle of coin that goes on in this game.
I personally really like Turbine's setup with DDO's hybrid model, as I've said. It accommodates a lot of different types of players in that free time vs available money spectrum.
I don't really worry about too many people grinding and staying entirely F2P. So long as the grind only gives small increments (like Nihimon said, run through an area 4-5 times to unlock another area, but obviously different from that because this isn't a themepark) of Cash Shop funds, it can keep some people in the game who wouldn't be in it otherwise, for lac of IRL funds.
I think the most obvious problem I see is automation of grinding leading to Cash Shop currency. One possible solution is to keep the bonuses as one-time only deals.
Trade is limited I think somewhat, one can only post so many items on the auction house and a F2P player can only hold so much in game currency (at least the old currency of platnium). Even a sub player has a limit of auctions they can post. And the distinction gets a little hazy between F2P, Premium, and VIP. The only difference between a F2P and Premium is one completes one transaction in the Turbine store regardless of the price.
F2P can't send tells I believe. Guilds are not an issue I think as anyone can join regardless if they are a F2P player.
For DDO one has to complete quests which are instanced to the party, like dungeons in any typical MMO. I don't know what you mean by automation but I don't think that's an issue.
Earning Turbine Points is set up like this atm. Quests are completed for favor, which includes raids also, on a solo, normal, hard, and elite difficulty scale which elite offers the highest amount of favor. For every 100 favor you complete you get 25 Turbine Points, which the current maximum favor cap I think with their upcoming Update 20 is 4,000 I think or 5,000. I forget but it will take a very very VERY long time to do. Which your looking at 1,550-1,900 turbine points for one life of max favor which will be at least a month process if not more. This will cover 1-2 adventure packs depending on the pack as the content and pricing varies.
In short, it is an extremely grindsome process, DDO is imo on of the most grindsome games out there because not only do you need to grind gear drops in raids but also in TRs (reincarnation) and some do this anywhere from 3-6 times if not more.
The pro I like in DDOs store is that you can pick and choose content, a lot of content you don't even need and over time a player can build up to getting all the content available if they choose not to bother with stat tomes, xp tomes, cosmetics, astral diamonds, ect ect.
What DDO's store does like tremendously is cosmetics. DDO's artwork with armor is someone that your 5-8 yr old kid could do better. Skin tight plate leggings, shoulder pads that dwarf WoW's, almost no options for helms that look any sort of decency. I can't say what are the real sellers but besides stat tomes and content I see nothing worth while in the store.
In GW2 (free after purchase with cash-shop) you can freely exchange in-game gold and cash shop gems for each other. So with real money you can trade for in-game gold to buy things in the game or you can work on getting in-game gold and trade it for the gems to buy cash shop stuff.
In Wurm Online (F2P with skill cap, premium subscription with complete skill gain) everything is paid for with in-game coin. You can purchase a month of premium time in-game with the same coin that you purchase goods and services from other players. Players can choose to purchase premium directly at Wurm's website or coins. Those are the only things sold out of game. There is no difference in price for a month of premium vs the amount of coin you would get to pay for a month of premium. Players actually purchase/own/build their own land called a deed. Deeds have a monthly upkeep with the price based on the size of the deed which can be sized as the player wishes. So there is a good cycle of coin that goes on in this game.
The issue with GW2 is it can easily be player manipulated and was actually cheaper to buy from 3rd party vendors some in game gold than it was to buy through ANet themselves. It always boils down to how much time you willing to give up. With school rearing up and will be working some hefty schedule I will likely be spending money because my time is extremely limited. Never though I would ever say that but that's how it is. Don't know if ANet ever addressed that issue with player manipulation of gold/gem price ratio.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am so sick of this cash shop nonsense...
Why cant game developers remove their greed from an MMO so that people feel that they have a fair shot at a game without cheating.
Thats is all cash shops are, a way to cheat that gives the developer more money.
If they really go any farther then Goblin Balls then I am not likely to play long.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I am not likely to play long.
There are going to be any number of people saying that about any number of issues they have with GW's overall design of PFO. As always, anyone is allowed to make his own decision whether to play, based on the totality of the game's features and implementations, and they can also come and go over time.
I believe this is an unmitigated good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am so sick of this cash shop nonsense...
Why cant game developers remove their greed from an MMO so that people feel that they have a fair shot at a game without cheating.
Thats is all cash shops are, a way to cheat that gives the developer more money.
If they really go any farther then Goblin Balls then I am not likely to play long.
Ryan said they are using Turbine's Hybrid system which includes a monthly subscription that gives you access to all things. The CS will be for cosmetic and account convenience options. So if they maintain this then you can just forget about the MT stuff and pay your sub and be happy. That's what I intend to do.
The only use of the CS I can see myself doing is if there is a clothing item that i think fits my character that completes his style.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am so sick of this cash shop nonsense...
Why cant game developers remove their greed from an MMO so that people feel that they have a fair shot at a game without cheating.
Thats is all cash shops are, a way to cheat that gives the developer more money.
If they really go any farther then Goblin Balls then I am not likely to play long.
I find it a bit tedious as well. But I think the purpose is to funnel players who come in with the preconceived notion of, "Nothing is worth paying for in these clone online games." and possibly start enjoying the experience or finding it exceeds their expectations and they decide to buy something to engage more fully with the game.
If the MTX is designed around that principle I think it's good. As well as inconsequential stuff such as graphical embellishments (perhaps also requiring achievement in-game) then I think it has a place.
It's when it's selling stuff to impacts the economy or competes with actual gameplay that I think is wrong.
I think at that end of the scale, the so-called "free-loaders" who might convert it makes sense. But I also think it could make sense at the premium end of the market which offers "Unique gameplay experiences" such as the ability to be a mob or be a GM crafting an adventure for your friends in a dungeon or hex owned by a guild for such stuff that is off-map perhaps and has modding/scripting options to add objects or change rules etc? That's probably future stuff. But people could pay much more for that sort of extra materials. So either side of the staple sub?
I am so sick of this cash shop nonsense...
Why cant game developers remove their greed from an MMO so that people feel that they have a fair shot at a game without cheating.
Thats is all cash shops are, a way to cheat that gives the developer more money.
If they really go any farther then Goblin Balls then I am not likely to play long.
Turbine, at least in DDO, is a very modest store. There really isn't anything that gave players advantageous. Stat tomes are debatable but that only allowed players a shortcut from a very gruesome process. Doing 20-40 runs of the raid that are on a 3 day time for that tome and still not getting the tome you're needing.
Granting with the addition of the Astral Diamond Auction House that added a P2W factor but it was never any some uber gear that one can demolish other players.
Lacking a sub the company needs to make revenue, people need to realize this and quite expecting a cheap free game of AAA quality. While some models are extremely bad like SWTOR who charges for addition hot bars and Neverwinter where it was so intrusive that it caused many to quite and started hearing the term P2E (Pay to Enjoy)but one could still enjoy all the content of the game though, while some got a very good model like Turbine's DDO where there was no advantageous uber gear but you were very limited to the content. GW2 is another example of another good model of a CS. They are out there.
With the game being , from my limited understanding, that all the gear will be crafted, can be lost if not threaded, and true power will come from your skills that you train in that take real time to complete just like EVE makes the cash shop unable to be a P2W.
Would you consider EVE P2W?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I am so sick of this cash shop nonsense...
Why cant game developers remove their greed from an MMO so that people feel that they have a fair shot at a game without cheating.
Thats is all cash shops are, a way to cheat that gives the developer more money.
If they really go any farther then Goblin Balls then I am not likely to play long.
Lots of people will play, very happy to pay only 5 bucks/month instead of 12 because some a-holes like meself are ready to pay 50 bucks for a new hair-cut, a blue bikini or a giraffe mount.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would you consider EVE P2W?
Yes, in fact I do.
I have played Eve since 2006, and have always hated Game Time Cards.
You pay for a bunch of GTC's. Sell them on the market for ISK... Use ISK to buy high Skilled Character... Now repeat, but instead of buying character just buy the high end ships.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yes, in fact I do.
I have played Eve since 2006, and have always hated Game Time Cards.
You pay for a bunch of GTC's. Sell them on the market for ISK... Use ISK to buy high Skilled Character... Now repeat, but instead of buying character just buy the high end ships.
The problem is selling char' then ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I am not likely to play long.There are going to be any number of people saying that about any number of issues they have with GW's overall design of PFO. As always, anyone is allowed to make his own decision whether to play, based on the totality of the game's features and implementations, and they can also come and go over time.
I believe this is an unmitigated good.
Please dont fall into Nihimons bane... You cannot quote part of a comment and focus on that for a comment.
The key here is if they go with the cash shop I will not likely stay long. Ryan has said previously that he will only be selling Goblin Balls... Now if he goes greedily for a cash shop then, well you know the rest.
...I am not likely to play long.There are going to be any number of people saying that about any number of issues they have with GW's overall design of PFO. As always, anyone is allowed to make his own decision whether to play, based on the totality of the game's features and implementations, and they can also come and go over time.
I believe this is an unmitigated good.
Please dont fall into Nihimons bane... You cannot quote part of a comment and focus on that for a comment.
The key here is if they go with the cash shop I will not likely stay long. Ryan has said previously that he will only be selling Goblin Balls... Now if he goes greedily for a cash shop then, well you know the rest.
Goblinworks have very specifically said there will be a cash shop from way back quote here
"You'll use Skymetal Bits to purchase four kinds of things:
Enhancements to your account: Things like having multiple characters, paying for skill training, and other premium services
Convenience consumables: Things that your characters might want to use in–game in lieu of relying on always having specialist characters with you while you adventure, or as a way to recover from an encounter that goes horribly awry
Bling: Visual displays that have no in–game mechanical effect, such as specialized clothing, decorations for buildings, and interesting–looking mounts.
Theme park adventure content: In–game modules that you can unlock for yourself and your friends"
From the money changes everything blog
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Goblin Squad Member
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I REALLY hope they don't model LOTRO's cash shop model too closely. It started out ok but got increasingly crass in terms of selling power.....to the point where it was selling cash shop only items or effectively cash shop only items (your chances of getting them in game were so miniscule as to be non-existant) that were more effective in a number of ways then what you could get in game. Not to mention the loud and intrusive cash-shop advertisements that appeared all over the UI. It wasn't the only reason I walked away from the game...but it certainly was a big part of it.
Though not a fan of cash shops, period....LOTRO's origional cash shop wasn't bad at all....but as time wore on, they got to the point where they seriously crossed the line.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You cannot quote part of a comment and focus on that for a comment.
As you like, my comment remains the same:
The key here is if they go with the cash shop I will not likely stay long.
There are going to be any number of people saying "I'll leave" about any number of issues they have with GW's overall design of PFO. As always, anyone is allowed to make his own decision whether to play, based on the totality of the game's features and implementations, and they can also come and go over time.
I believe this is an unmitigated good. Given the marketplace, game companies need to maximise the opportunities they give themselves to earn revenue, and if some players find those opportunities unacceptable, the companies will take that into account in their planning and execution and they'll operate as they deem best.
Some potential players will join, some will not. Some actual players will stay, others will leave.
The company will succeed or it will fail; that's generally beyond the scope of any one person's choices or actions.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There are three major targets for revenue: there are those that will try for no cash cost but can be convinced to upgrade; there are those who want a consistent price and a fair game; and there are people who spend lots of money on things that they like, even I'd they get no advantage ingame. Dismissing this third group is leaving money on the floor, and Goblinworks cannot afford to do that.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Here's the theory behind MTX.
Imagine a graph with two axis: Vertical is "Amount Player Will Pay Per Month". Horizontal is "Number of Players Who Will Pay".
A traditional subscription creates a square on this graph. You go up the vertical axis to the price of the subscription, and over the horizontal axis to the place where you run out of buyers. The revenue potential of the game is whatever is inside that square.
The genius of MTX is this.
There are some people who would pay something but not a full subscription price. In the subscription model, you get nothing from these people. But with MTX, you allow them to pay something less than the subscription. They play, but they have a reduced experience compared to everyone paying the subscription. But they're playing. And paying.
There are some people who would pay a lot more than the subscription price. In the subscription model, you get nothing more from these people. But with MTX, you create an opportunity for them to give you a lot more money by offering them various things above and beyond what the subscribers are receiving.
This creates two "triangles" of additional revenue - one above the subscription price, and one beyond the limit of the number of people willing to pay for a subscription.
The amount of money represented by those to two triangles can be more than the total of the subscriptions. It represents tremendous upside that is locked for games with flat subscription pricing. MTX unlocks that value.
The challenge is to avoid putting things into the MTX store that degrade the value of the subscription, or that unbalance the game so that an unreasonably high amount of purchases are required to be competitive.
In Asia, those concerns are ignored (due to lack of revolving credit facilities, and the fact that many (most) gamers play in game cafes where they pay by the hour for access to the computers anyway). In Asian MTX, anything goes and the goal is to extract maximum revenue from a small number of rich "whales" at the top of the food chain. To induce whale behavior, spending is rewarded directly with in-game mechanical benefits. The more you spend, the more powerful you are in-game.
In the West, we think that model fails. While there are still whales willing to spend a lot of money to win on-line games, we think the better, more sustainable model is to earn a smaller, reasonable amount of money from almost everyone who plays. To do that, we have to avoid giving meaningful mechanical advantages to MTX purchases (or we'd fall into the Asian trap of chasing whales).
Therefore, as we've said since the inception of this community, our MTX won't feature items that have a meaningful in-game benefit, nor will we sell things that are mechanically superior to the goods craftable by the players themselves.
RyanD
In Asia, those concerns are ignored (due to lack of revolving credit facilities, and the fact that many (most) gamers play in game cafes where they pay by the hour for access to the computers anyway). In Asian MTX, anything goes and the goal is to extract maximum revenue...
And then they kill the whales, as well as the dolphins, which minimizes revenue. lol
Kidding aside, I really hope you don't put anything into the MTX that's of any functional value, and restrict it only to cosmetic items, bag space, etc. A person shouldn't be able to buy something that a crafter can make for 500 gp in exchange for $15 or whatever, it just shouldn't be like that. And everything you can get cosmetically in the store you should be able to get the hard way too, if you'd like to earn it.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I concur that taking the Asian model of selling the big spenders ingame advantages proportional to their cost will result in at least one Western player with the willingness and ability to become one of the whales to leave.
That said, I don't think the PLEX model provides one player an advantage proportional to their spending- what it does is provide a number of players a total advantage proportional to their total spending, which they then distribute among themselves in a manner that they mutually deem equitable. It is functionally similar to hiring people to play, with the benefit of reduced transaction costs; it has the same gameplay effects as the inevitable gold sellers, without the disadvantage of disreputable people potentially scamming or compromising the players.