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I'll be GMing Rise of the Runelords, so I bought the anniversary edition hardback. After reading the introduction, I skipped to the appendices before reading the adventure itself. All those details on Sandpoint, its history, residents, surrounding area, etc seemed like good stuff to know immediately. I know a fair bit of general knowledge about Golarion from playing lots of PFS, but I want to learn as much detail as I can about the specific area around this adventure path before my group meets again. We'll be doing a character creation session as a group before the first playing session, and I'll want to help them incorporate their back stories into the setting, so the more I know, the better.
I have a few questions, some of which may already be answered here. But with 2700+ threads already about this AP, it's hard to find answers to specific questions, so I'm starting my own thread.
My first and most obvious question is what year is it when the AP starts? The history of Sandpoint gives years for the town's founding and when the "Late Unpleasantness" happened. Admittedly, I just skimmed the start of the adventure looking for a reference to the year, so I may have missed something that I'll find once I read it all in detail, but I don't see it. How long has it been since the Late Unpleasantness?
Also, there are references all over to the ancient Thassilonian ruins around Varisia, including the Old Light and the 7 stones at the center of the Sandpoint Cathedral, both of which are described as being misunderstood by the current locals. Just how much would the residents of Sandpoint and the PCs know about this stuff? Would they even know the name "Thassilonian" to describe these ancient ruins, and have a general idea about how long ago it was and/or any of the history involved, or would they just view these things as ancient ruins that nobody knows anything about?
That's it for now. I'm sure I'll have more questions as I keep reading.
Also, there are references all over to the ancient Thassilonian ruins around Varisia, including the Old Light and the 7 stones at the center of the Sandpoint Cathedral, both of which are described as being misunderstood by the current locals. Just how much would the residents of Sandpoint and the PCs know about this stuff? Would they even know the name "Thassilonian" to describe these ancient ruins, and have a general idea about how long ago it was and/or any of the history involved, or would they just view these things as ancient ruins that nobody knows anything about?
It's mentioned in "Varisia: Birthplace of Legends" and a few other spots that Sandpoint is a hotbed of archaeological expeditions and ventures. At anytime, there are probably a fair number of town visitors and travelers there are who are specifically on-site to investigate Thassilonian ruins and artifacts.
That being said, it's probably fair to assume that the locals should have a basic knowledge of such things from catering to all the academics and archaeologists passing through.
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Ok, so the PCs would probably know that those are Thassilonian ruins, which are over 10,000 years old (common knowledge in the area), but they'd need a pretty good knowledge: history role (20+?) to know any of the actual history of ancient Thassilon. Maybe those PCs who are natives to the area would be able to roll that knowledge check untrained and/or get a bonus on it. Sound about right?
On to the next question (still early enough to change the thread title :p )
Someone in another thread mentioned that there aren't many skill checks in this AP. Is skill use minimal enough that I should be warning my players against making skill monkey type characters? It seems like social skills will come in handy with all the NPC interactions, but if there won't be a lot of call for Stealth or Disable Device, then playing a rogue might be kind of pointless.
Hey Fromper! Welcome to a great experience. Rise of the Runelords is my favorite published campaign to date.
My rule as a DM is: Build the game to suit your players. Its true that there isn't a ton of traps and things for Rogues, etcetera. I have a Rogue that is built to do that kind of thing, and so I add in extra traps, and I lock a few doors, easy as that.
Rise of the Runelords has a few other quirks. As far as treasure goes, your players are either getting a huge haul or next to nothing, so if your players need treasure to live, or if you just notice that you're in a part of the campaign that doesn't offer much, you should sprinkle a little extra in.
Also, the treasure that IS there throughout the whole campaign really favors the magic user, so consider replacing "Mage" treasure with items that anyone could use, or else add this in along with the standard awards.
Someone in another thread mentioned that there aren't many skill checks in this AP. Is skill use minimal enough that I should be warning my players against making skill monkey type characters? It seems like social skills will come in handy with all the NPC interactions, but if there won't be a lot of call for Stealth or Disable Device, then playing a rogue might be kind of pointless.
Okay, I think you're overthinking this a bit
BUT
In regards to your question...I am currently playing a lvl 7 Wizard in RotRL and I have gotten plenty of use out of my knowledge skills. Our group also includes a multiclass rogue/bard who has gotten plenty of use out of Stealth and has used his Disable Device ability to good effect in a few cases.
One thing to consider, Fromper, regarding the Thassilonian lore and such...
...consider requiring your players to take one trait (if you are using traits) from the listed RotRL campaign traits. These are a great way to help tie the characters into the story and can give them some very beneficial abilities that they might otherwise overlook as being useful in the campaign.
For example, I took "Scholar of the Ancients". It gave me +1 to Knowledge Arcana and Knowledge History and gave me the ability to speak and read Thassilonian. In addition, it gave me some nice fluff for helping to figure out why my PC was in Sandpoint in the first place.
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It's been five years since the Late Unpleasantness. That happened in 4702 AR, which makes the current year 4707. Mokmurian awoke Karzoug in that year, and his stirring reactivates the runewell of greed. This in turn reawakens several other runewells across Varisia, including the one beneath Sandpoint. The minor runewell in the Catacombs of Wrath burbles to life, and amplifies the wrathful impulses of the citizens above, manifesting in Chopper's killing spree and the fire that consumes both the original Sandpoint Cathedral and claims the life of Ezekien Tobyn. Nualia is assumed to perish in the flames as well. It also pushes Lonjiku into killing his wife Atsuii, and while he is never convicted or accused of this crime, some people speculate she did not accidentally fall to her death. (The Pathfinder Wiki's a great resource on when things happen, so check that out at pathfinder.wikia.com!)
And yes, everybody knows that Varisia's a treasure trove of historically significant sites, but at the time of RotRL, nobody suspects that the Thassilonian Empire is anything but a footnote in history. It's like Stonehenge: we know that ancient people built this impressive monument, but nobody thinks that those people are still around today (or, at least, nobody sane). There's ancient monoliths and half-buried ruins everywhere, but most of them have been picked clean of anything of worth, and nobody certainly expects that the Runelords have actually survived to this day. There's some threads on here that I've suggested that people "know" to be true about Thassilon, but most of that is either apocryphal or could even be flat out wrong, based on the scant knowledge people have of that lost civilization. That's why the library in Book 4 is so important historically - it represents modern Golarion's first really accurate look at the horrors of Thassilon, and just how big the threat really is if Karzoug returns.
But that's all in the future. For now, a DC 20 would be a sufficiently high number to slowly piece out what people "know" to be true about Thassilon. And, if they can't figure it out, that's what the Sandpoint Brain Trust is there for. Brodert Quink will be glad to talk to people about his specialist subject...if you can get past his crazy theories.
I wouldn't say there aren't skill checks in this AP - it just depends on what you're doing and how you're doing it. There are times you'll want to go in hot, and times when a more clandestine approach will benefit you. Knowledge skills will give you clues on avenues of approach that aren't immediately obvious. Linguistics will let the party read Thassilonian, not to mention speak with the giants or other races they'll meet along the way. Movement skills like Acrobatics and Climb can be useful to get past obstacles. In general, every class should be able to find something to do in the AP at some point.
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Misroi gives you a good overview, but it's worth emphasizing what he says about the Thassilonian Empire.
People know that it's old, but almost nobody thinks that it's 10,000 years old (crazy old Quink does, but he's barmy...)
People know that it had monumental structures which have fallen into ruin, but that crazy old coot Quink thinks the Old Light was a fire-spewing war machine.
The goblins live on a fort on this weird looking rock. From one angle it looks like a big stone head. Funny about that.
This stuff shouldn't be widely disseminated common knowledge. If you ask most folk, even relatively learned ones, they might say "Thassa-who?". Even people who know about Thassilonian history kind of view a lot of the information as more propaganda and myth-making than actual fact (Oh, yeah, a lost city paved with gems and roofed in gold. Sure.)
It's really important that you hit a 'sweet spot' about Thassilon. It's not common knowledge, at all, but you do also want to give out some information in dribs and drabs, so that the reveal isn't a sudden, massive info-dump.
My group is unbelievably hella-curious about ancient Thassilonian stuff, so they are more than willing to believe that Quink may be right and this stuff might be really, really darn old. They have bugged every two-bit crackpot and expert they can corner on this stuff. On the other hand, they still don't really get the proper "scalle" of Thassilonian stuff. They don't get why the 'border' between ancient Thassilonian nations is so near the coast (because one nation collapsed into the gulf!). They also think that all of this stuff emerging is due to the ancient magics of the Thassilonian wizards decaying (like the preservative magics are decaying) and releasing bound demons or something. They haven't cottoned onto the fact that ancient rune-lords are actually alive and kicking...
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Butch, it sounds like you and I have very similar ideas on how to present information on Thassilon to a party. People know about Thassilon, so it's not like they're discovering a hither-to-unknown ancient empire. The way I see it, you want them to always be wanting just a bit more information than they actually have. Slowly reveal the true depth of how big, powerful and evil they were, until they realize just how large the stakes really are.
For mechanics:
a benchmark for Knowledge (history) checks
Ruyan.
Ok, so the PCs would probably know that those are Thassilonian ruins, which are over 10,000 years old (common knowledge in the area), but they'd need a pretty good knowledge: history role (20+?) to know any of the actual history of ancient Thassilon. Maybe those PCs who are natives to the area would be able to roll that knowledge check untrained and/or get a bonus on it. Sound about right?
On to the next question (still early enough to change the thread title :p )
Someone in another thread mentioned that there aren't many skill checks in this AP. Is skill use minimal enough that I should be warning my players against making skill monkey type characters? It seems like social skills will come in handy with all the NPC interactions, but if there won't be a lot of call for Stealth or Disable Device, then playing a rogue might be kind of pointless.
While you could do that, there is an actual trait that gives a player knowledge on Thassilonia. Giving that much to everyone kind of invalidates the players choice to take the trait.
In fact I'd suggest looking the traits over carefully, as I reworked a few to more closely fit my game. I like a low equpment start so I modified the full kitting from the Ranger in town to a more modest one, and him becoming the players mentor (which is important in my game).
I also encouraged players to be from Sandpoint, and provided good NPC ties for those that chose that path.
Someone in another thread mentioned that there aren't many skill checks in this AP. Is skill use minimal enough that I should be warning my players against making skill monkey type characters? It seems like social skills will come in handy with all the NPC interactions, but if there won't be a lot of call for Stealth or Disable Device, then playing a rogue might be kind of pointless.Okay, I think you're overthinking this a bit
BUT
In regards to your question...I am currently playing a lvl 7 Wizard in RotRL and I have gotten plenty of use out of my knowledge skills. Our group also includes a multiclass rogue/bard who has gotten plenty of use out of Stealth and has used his Disable Device ability to good effect in a few cases.
One thing to consider, Fromper, regarding the Thassilonian lore and such...
...consider requiring your players to take one trait (if you are using traits) from the listed RotRL campaign traits. These are a great way to help tie the characters into the story and can give them some very beneficial abilities that they might otherwise overlook as being useful in the campaign.
For example, I took "Scholar of the Ancients". It gave me +1 to Knowledge Arcana and Knowledge History and gave me the ability to speak and read Thassilonian. In addition, it gave me some nice fluff for helping to figure out why my PC was in Sandpoint in the first place.
Yeah, keeping the thief engaged when there aren't a lot of traps is always a good idea. If they are one that checks at all doors, and you don't want to set up a bunch of traps, just let them "find" one when they've made a successful roll to do so. It'll keep them on their toes, and make them happy they're taking the time to do it right.
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My recommendations.
I believe there is a list of DC's for lore in the 4th book around where the robot is. That being said, the adventure is supposed to take place when very little Thassilonian lore is out. For instance, I didn't allow my players to take Thassilonian as a language until book 4.
As far as the town and its deep history, if the players want to delve deep think of Sandpoint kind of like Sunnydale. They can keep digging in the Book 1 catacombs, but they might find the rest of them that are in book 4 if they dig too deep. I wrote a side adventure for Chopper that is in Wayfinder 7 and highly suggest having it on hand just in case your players get curious, plus it makes Das Korvut the Blacksmith alot of fun to RP with.
In addition to all the startup material in the first few pages about the carnival, Wayfinder 7 has carnival games.
Early on I'd have some Black Arrows from Fort Rannick pass through town, just so the players can hear about the prison/fort of doom, I ran it like the Wall from Game of Thrones, which is pretty close to the truth.
The first big bad, Nualia, I have some journal pages to alter her story a bit and turn her into a redeemable character. It alters the story in no major ways, adds some extra depth that the players may miss out on if they really like digging. I'll email them to you if you want, I just didn't have any good way of hosting them. (allmightydm@gmail)
Definitely find the random npc chart on the Community Created thread, just randomly rolling on some npc to walk up on the party makes the town come alive. Either that or just roll a 1d50 and use the appendix of buildings and have them cross that npc.
Buildup the mysticism and mystery around Madam Niska the druid, my players really loved the character.
Remember the celebration for the cathedral is going to have a TON of people in town. My players who use theives always had fun pick pocketing people or getting pick pocketted themselves.
I had everyone in the Fatman's Feedbag always give a hard time to the party.
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Thanks for all the comments and advice everyone.
James, I just downloaded Wayfinder #7. I didn't know about the magazine before. I'll definitely use those carnival games, and maybe your Chopper's Island side adventure. I haven't even started reading the main adventure yet, so I haven't quite gotten far enough to make decisions like that yet.
I have the anniversary edition of the AP. After reading the short intro chapter, I went straight to the appendices in the back. I skipped the two pager on continuing the adventure at level 18, and I've been reading up on Sandpoint, which seems like a necessary appendix to read before starting in on the adventure. I'll probably try to finish reading all 60+ pages of the appendices before starting to read Burnt Offerings. Luckily, we're doing character creation this coming Monday, then starting to play the following Monday, so I have a week and a half (including two weekends) to prep.
This one does seem to have a ton of up front prep work, but I'm assuming I won't have to do this much reading on a weekly basis once we get going, just enough to know what's coming up next in the adventure. In general, how far ahead do I have to read to make sure I have all the necessary story to play everything out well? ie Is it best to try to read upcoming chapters in advance, so I can drop hints about upcoming events in advance? Or just make sure I'm done reading the current chapter? Or even just the small portion that I know we'll get to play that week? Or should I try to binge read to be done reading the entire AP as soon as possible?
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I'll second the Swallowtail Festival games - they make for a very soft opening to the first session. My party decided they wanted to try their hand at everything! It introduces them to the townsfolk, and also sets up Sandpoint as a sleepy little town where nothing interesting ever happens.
Like Derry, Maine, really.
There's also a thread in this forum that has a rough version of the Wayfinder games, as well as a few other things that were added after the fact. I'll also recommend the Chopper's Isle adventure, since I used a slightly depowered version of that during Local Heroes.
As for your reading assignment, I'd focus on the Sandpoint gazetteer and Burnt Offerings, but skim through the broad strokes of what's to come. As the story starts, you won't need to know everything there is about Thassilon or Xin-Shalast or Runeforge, but knowing where the story is going will allow you to tailor encounters to your PCs' triggers. For example, I was ecstatic when I found out that my party's cleric/paladin has Fey Foundling and absolutely loathes his First World heritage. I made sure that Nualia targeted him with Lamashtu's Mark - a ram's horns grew from his forehead quite instantly and painfully. Keep an eye out for things that PCs do and say which you can then bring back up in later stories. You'll want to read it all eventually, but you can content yourself now by focusing on the early bits.
Speaking of, you'll want to start listening for whatever their sins would be. Runeforge will respond to them if you've noticed how PCs react to the situations, and you'll soon learn which of the deadly seven they most identify with.
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I've run this AP about 6 times, once to completion. I used it to teach people how to play PF and for a four hour game with some decent RP you really need to only read about 4 pages.
For instance here's what my game 1 ended up being in bullet points.
-Players make level 1 characters
-Players get to read the original handout, but only the Sandpoint section, literally pages 17-19 of the original player's guide, I feel the new one has too many spoilers. They get the map if they buy one in game, force them to go around town. Make sure they get the rumors though.
-At minimum start the game the night before the festival or further back, maybe do a half hour thing explaining historically where they went to school at Turandaroc Academy. Let them see all the townsfolk, especially Ameiko (Rusty Dragon Inn), getting ready and the place filling up with outsiders, notably Varissians and Shoanti.
-Pg 13 Most of the game will be Welcoming speeches, Festival Games, the Release, then Lunch. Great time for players to meet the Mayor and Sherrif.
-The first battle of the initial assault, which is more comedy than danger.
-After the first couple of fights, just make sure not to skimp over Aldern Foxglove, he becomes an important character in book 2. I'd read ahead just to see his spoilers pg 68.
The town has some neat things like a small seacave that leads to the Catacombs of Wrath, but I'd try and keep that hidden until a bit later. My players have always investigated the seacave so I always have it full of teenagers and kids to throw them off. They always want to check out Junker's Edge for goblins. On occasion I have had kids poorly dressed up as goblins running around, which can lead to some bad situations.
Just make sure that the players understand that the town is guarded by sleepy farmhands and old men.