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Question first:
Basic Issue:
- Core Rulebook section on negative levels states that temporary negative levels receive a saving throw every day to be removed.
- Energy Drain (spell and universal monster rule) states there is only a single saving throw for the negative levels bestowed by them, and then they become permanent.
History:
The evolution of the language of Negative levels and Energy Drain from 3.5 to Beta to Pathfinder is fairly clear. There was a design goal to make Negative Levels less painful and annoying - primarily by eliminating actual level loss, but not exclusively. From the Beta (and Core Rulebook) rules published, there appear to be two classes of negative levels:
- Temporary: one save every day to rmeove
- Permanent: No save to remove
The Disconnect:
The Energy Drain rules in the Bestiary do not match this change to Temporary vs. Permanent, instead using the 3.5 Temporary -> Permanent rules.
Rules:
The character gains one or more negative levels, which might permanently drain the character’s levels. If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, he dies. Each negative level gives a creature the following penalties: -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks; loss of 5 hit points; and -1 to effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities). In addition, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from the highest spell level castable.
Lose a Level
Few things are more disruptive to a game session than losing a level, be it from a monster or being raised from the dead.
In the 3.5 rules set, this means “un-building” your character, trying to undo all of the choices you made the last time you gained a level. There is no simple way to do this and you often end up permanently behind the curve of the rest of the party. To address this problem, we have taken the mechanics for a negative level, streamlined them a bit, and made them permanent in some cases. So, when you suffer an effect that would have caused you to lose a level, you instead take a permanent negative level. No more “un-building” your character and losing a bunch of abilities that allow you to keep up with the rest of the group. Now you just take some penalties until you get a restoration or similar spell cast on you. While this does take some of the bite out of losing a level,
it speeds up play and lets you continue playing your character without a bunch of messy calculations.
[and separately]
Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to bestow negative levels. These levels cause a character to take a number of penalties, but they never result in actual level loss.
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each
negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature’s negative levels equals or exceeds its total Hit Dice, it dies.
A creature with negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. These permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equals its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration
spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
The final pathfinder language is substantially the same as the Beta language.
Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
Potential Explanations:
- Incomplete Transition: It's Spring 2009, the Core Rulebook has been finalized after combing through the comments of 50,000 playtesters. But the Bestiary has to be updated in just a couple months! An excellent job is done, but cross-checking every single change made to the rules is beyond the time constraints. Result: Energy Drain is tidied up as far as the effects go, but changes to the duration are not noticed.
- Desired Dichotomy: Despite making two clear categories in the Negative Level rules, it may have been intended for the third category that energy drain falls in to exist. Result: Bestiary rules work as intended as an adjustment to the normal rules for negative levels.
- Belated Rollback: After experimenting with "save every day" negative levels during the playtest, the developer decided not to implement that aspect of the changes (only the "no actual level loss" portion), but missed the window to actually remove the language from the Core Rulebook.
Pros/Cons:
- Level draining undead not *quite* as overwhelming. CR3 Wights (encounter-able at 1st level) can be very quick deaths. CR7 Spectres are somewhat notorious with their touch attack 2 level drains.
- More dynamic encounter responses. It's much more interesting for a PC to actually *try* to make that saving throw to remove the level, rather than rushing for a Restoration. First, they have the negative level at least for 24 hours. Second, they may have it longer if they fail the save. It's a gamble, a dice roll, and far more fun.
- Less annoying.
Save Every Day Cons:
- Might make undead "less scary", but there is already 24 hours to simply get a Restoration cast at low cost.
One Save Only Pros:
- Familiar 3.5 rule.
One Save Only Cons:
- Makes waiting to make the saving throw highly undesirable. A single spectre hit risks going from a 100gp and 1-spell restoration to a 2000gp and 2-spell fix. Too much risk leads to overly cautious adventurers.
- Doesn't match the established Pathfinder rule.
Recommendations:
Please press FAQ to recommend clarification or changes. Thank you for your time.
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I would love for this confusion to be sorted out. Certain PFS scenarios and home games are a bit more immediately deadly than they may have been intended to be.
As far as I can tell,
Permanent= 1 save= you have it or you don't
Temporary: Save later: you auto have it (no save) and then save later to make it permanent.
Save later can cause characters to die from being hit too much by level draining creatures, without even getting a single save.
...And if I'm wrong, then that's one more reason to have a faq. :)
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Currently there are three categories:
Permanent: No save to remove. I can't think of any method of acquiring these directly except spells that bring you back to life. If there is, there may be a save to prevent acquiring it.
Energy Drain: No save to prevent acquiring, 1 save after 24 hours to remove, else it becomes permanent.
Temporary: No examples. 1 save every 24 hours to remove.
Apologies for the dense post all, just wanted to get all the info in there.
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I don't see what's unclear.
Temporary: e.g., Enervation - Negative levels never become permanent (they have a fixed duration), but if you accumulate enough to equal your HD, you die.
Temporary until Permanent or gone: e.g., Energy Drain Monster Ability (e.g. Wraith) The negative level is temporary until 24 hours passes. At this stage a save is made (DC listed in monster entry or spell). If you pass the save the negative level is gone. If you fail the save the negative level becomes permanent (see below).
Restoration has an important roll here. If the spell is cast before the save is made it is only removing temporary negative levels, which is cheap, and the spell removes all temporary negative levels with a single casting. If Restoration is cast after a save is failed, it costs 1,000gp and only one permanent negative level can be removed per week.
Permanent: e.g.,Raise Dead There is no save to remove the negative levels. Unless magic like Restoration is used these negative levels are PERMANENT.
In all cases, if you have enough negative levels (temporary and permanent) to equal your HD, you die. Some monsters cause additional effects to happen if they drain someone to death as well. Usually there is no save when acquiring negative levels, so they can be quite deadly if you aren't careful.
I don't see what's unclear.
Temporary: e.g., Enervation - Negative levels never become permanent (they have a fixed duration), but if you accumulate enough to equal your HD, you die.
Temporary until Permanent or gone: e.g., Energy Drain Monster Ability (e.g. Wraith) The negative level is temporary until 24 hours passes. At this stage a save is made (DC listed in monster entry or spell). If you pass the save the negative level is gone. If you fail the save the negative level becomes permanent (see below).
Restoration has an important roll here. If the spell is cast before the save is made it is only removing temporary negative levels, which is cheap, and the spell removes all temporary negative levels with a single casting. If Restoration is cast after a save is failed, it costs 1,000gp and only one permanent negative level can be removed per week.
Permanent: e.g.,Raise Dead There is no save to remove the negative levels. Unless magic like Restoration is used these negative levels are PERMANENT.
In all cases, if you have enough negative levels (temporary and permanent) to equal your HD, you die. Some monsters cause additional effects to happen if they drain someone to death as well. Usually there is no save when acquiring negative levels, so they can be quite deadly if you aren't careful.
This...not sure what the disconnect is between the core and bestiary if you use the above.
Just because there's nothing currently in the game that has temporary negative levels lasting more than 24 hours, doesn't mean having a rule to deal with such a situation if it becomes an option nullifies any of the other rules...
I don't see what's unclear.
At the back of the book it says you get a new save every day. Are there any circumstances where this rule applies?
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A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
The bolded text is misleading as only a single save is made. Once a day has passed the temporary negative level is gone - it has either been removed with a successful save or it becomes permanent, which grants no save.
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.The bolded text is misleading as only a single save is made. Once a day has passed the temporary negative level is gone - it has either been removed with a successful save or it becomes permanent, which grants no save.
Again, just because currently all options that grant temporarily negative levels cause them to become permanent after 24 hour on a failed save, doesn't mean that's the general rule. They're specifically called out in the spell/ability/power/etc. as becoming permanent after that time, because the general rule is a temporary negative level can be saved against every 24 hours.
Currently, you have specific ability rules trumping the general rule. In the future, they could make an ability that doesn't add that rider about turning into a permanent negative level. If/when they do, then the rule is already in place with how to deal with it is all.
...not sure what the disconnect is between the core and bestiary if you use the above.
Just because there's nothing currently in the game that has temporary negative levels lasting more than 24 hours, doesn't mean having a rule to deal with such a situation if it becomes an option nullifies any of the other rules...
Given clear designer intent to make changes (see History above), and an explicit change to the rules to give a save on temporary negative levels every 24 hours, it is strange that absolutely no effects use those rules. Not even enervation were it to someone be extended to 24 hours.
Matthew: Nothing uses this rule to my knowledge.
Horselord: Misleading is one way of putting it yes. I prefer to think of it as the correct intention, but unused due to Energy Drain going unchanged.
just because currently all options that grant temporarily negative levels cause them to become permanent after 24 hour on a failed save, doesn't mean that's the general rule.
That isn't a good way of writing a rulebook. People will look at the general rule and assume that it's the rule that normally applies.
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Given clear designer intent to make changes (see History above), and an explicit change to the rules to give a save on temporary negative levels every 24 hours, it is strange that absolutely no effects use those rules. Not even enervation were it to someone be extended to 24 hours.
That is a valid point. All it takes is an effect to cause temporary negative levels with unlimited duration that specifically state they never become permanent, and the rules to deal with it are already there. Should we just call this forward thinking?
Should we just call this forward thinking?
I find that quite unconvincing. If this were a rare condition, or in a splat book, perhaps. But this is a frequently used section of the rules, in the core rulebook, and in the 4 years since the Core Rules were published, nothing as referenced this.
Perfectly possible that we have a lingering Beta rule, and not an unfulfilled final change. I prefer the rule as stated in the Core Rulebook. It would be good to have a clear answer either way, as currently Energy Drain ability does not call itself out as an exception, and enervation's text is actually wrong.
Fortunately, any changes to Energy Drain to revert to this rule would actually reduce the verbiage. Clarifying it as an exception would lengthen it.
I think there might be a case with a negative energy trap which, by RAW, uses this rule. Simpler to remove it entirely though.
Matthew: Do you mean "Energy Drain Trap CR 10"? That uses the energy drain spell. Is there another one that bestows negative levels?
...not sure what the disconnect is between the core and bestiary if you use the above.
Just because there's nothing currently in the game that has temporary negative levels lasting more than 24 hours, doesn't mean having a rule to deal with such a situation if it becomes an option nullifies any of the other rules...
Given clear designer intent to make changes (see History above), and an explicit change to the rules to give a save on temporary negative levels every 24 hours, it is strange that absolutely no effects use those rules. Not even enervation were it to someone be extended to 24 hours.
Sure enervation would. You would get a new save every 24 hours you managed to somehow extend it to at the same DC you had to save against the spell to start... Yes, the save is none for the specific spell, but the mechanic is there.
There was some change from 3.5 to Beta to PF. There are also some similarities, which don't forget, was also the overall designer intent to permit 3.5 integration.
People will look at the general rule and assume that it's the rule that normally applies.
Precisely. If there are no specific overriding rules for an ability/spell/etc. then that is the rule that normally would apply.
The overriding rules are often hidden away in Bestiary appendices where people will miss them.
Sniggevert: No, not even enervation.
Usually, negative levels have a chance of becoming permanent, but the negative levels from enervation don't last long enough to do so.
The general rule, as everything is written, never applies.
The overriding rules are often hidden away in Bestiary appendices where people will miss them.
This is a good point. I don't like to get melodramatic, but this variance could cause some nasty situations. For example, a PFS player gets tagged by Energy Drain during a scenario, and decides to look up the rule in the Core Rulebook. At the end of the scenario, he's ready to make his saving throw as often as needed to get rid of it, rolls one and fails. The GM then tells him he needs a 1280gp restoration to get rid of the permanent negative level.
I don't see any issue here as long as you realize that "Permanent' mean it just doesn't go away naturally, it can still be removed by a spell.
No real need for a FAQ. But maybe the devs can make the wording clearer in the next printing.
Thank you for reading, but removal by spell isn't really the question here. It's the ability, per the Core Rulebook, to try to remove negative levels (non-permanent ones) each day.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The negative energy plane bestows negative levels without using the Energy drain special abiltity - thus, those would fall under the "defauly" negative level rules.
There are some monsters that inflict negative levels without using the Energy Drain ability - the Ravener template has a breath weapon, for example.
It is a rare effect, to have negative levels that don't become permanent. I went several years before someone pointed out the Bestiary energy drain entry.
Thank you for the examples ryric, obscure but quite valid. Did your last sentence mean that you were running energy drain per the Core Rulebook rules for those years?
Some thread necro here. The disconnect between the CRB and the Bestiary is rather frustrating, and part of me does suspect that one is following an outdated rules section.
Any chance that, if nothing else, we can get the Energy Drain section of the PRD Glossary updated?
Official Rules Response
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Negative Levels: On page 562, it says that you get a save to remove temporary negative levels each day, but the universal monster rule for energy drain, as well as nearly every mention of temporary negative levels I can find, say that after 24 hours, the temporary negative levels become permanent if I fail my save. Which one is right?
The rule on page 562 is the general rule, but almost every specific rule in the game functions differently, and specific overrides general. Incidentally, the universal monster rule for energy drain doesn’t explicitly say that the negative levels are considered temporary before they become permanent (it just says “negative levels”), and we want to make it clear that they are temporary negative levels at that time (and thus that you can remove them more inexpensively withrestoration). The only text directly in error is the reminder text at the end of enervation which claims that becoming permanent after 24 hours is the general rule.
So for me who's not up on this issue, can someone explain what the FAQ does for a game? Like what was the issue area and how is it now fixed?
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It probably didn't change anything at all from the way you were normally playing.
I was hoping for a different ruling, but I am glad this has been clarified officially.
I think it is fine for higher level games, where Death Ward and/or Restoration is already in play, but a single wight could cost a couple thousand g.p. worth of diamond dust for some unlucky APL 2-3 group. Well, no one ever said level drain wasn't nasty!
Thanks to Mark Seifter, and also Majuba, for making a great FAQ submission.
It probably didn't change anything at all from the way you were normally playing.
This is huge for our game - we (a total of 5 GMs from different games and we don't all play together) looked at the rules and decided that the intention was to make negative levels less crappy and thus a save every day.
So yeah - huge change here - I mean you can feel that way all you want, but this kind of clarification makes a big difference - vampires and wights are now really scary again.