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Hi everyone, i have a big problem in my adventure.
My players are working for a paladin, he gave my player s a mission:
Check a shop where some cultist of an evil deity was reunited and take some proofs of her activities. They had a password to enter in the site if would be cultist inside.
This is the develop of the mission:
Arrive at the door of the shop
My players said "we are evil cultist" and said the password
The minions inside answers that they dont know what are they talking (the minions wasnt cultist)
My players then said "No, no, we are not cultists, are workshipers of Iomedae"
Then came a huge discussion between the minions inside and my players, my players blow the door and one of them (meanwhile the swords are in the hands of both factions) tryed to intimidate one of the minions and the inquisitor checked that minions are evil.
The combat began, the paladin of my group deals no-letal damage, the others dont, two of the minions were killed.
If my players go back to the paladin and tells the story...well, they are the bad guys, they attack first and kill two of the minions which are hidding from the monsters of the streets, my players had no proofs that the minions were workshipers of a evil god...
What should i do?
Don't worry about the moral quandary.
Have the paladin boss start to explain how disappointed he is in how they failed the mission, then have the real cultists attack (they followed the PCs after all the commotion at the shop).
A few dead cultists later, the Paladin boss might have a different opinion of them, or he might be dead. Either way, you avoid the awkward situation of having to harp on the players for what they've done.
To elaborate: keep the action moving.
It's one thing to have a dressing-down by the boss paladin... that can be a cool scene if you do it right, but more likely you're just going to make the players resent you. If you DO choose to have the paladin criticize them, make sure you do it in a way that makes them feel cool, like they're having fun. Don't be a "wet blanket". Don't use the paladin to voice your personal irritation with the players.
It's better to *show* them how they screwed up. They alerted the cult to their operation. They didn't cover their tracks. They lead the cult right back to their boss. A surprise attack when they *think* they're about to get scolded by their boss will show them exactly why they shouldn't be so sloppy.
Hit them hard. Hard enough that they'll hold a grudge, and start pursuing the cult just to get emotional closure.
But....there is no cult in the shop, the minions are hidding in the shop, they killed "inocent" people, thats the problem.
This is not a problem. First of all, your players did the wrong opening: if you're not sure if the shop hide an evil cult you don't start with "hi, we're evil cultist". Then, things things followed a natural course. Now, Lincoln's advice is pretty good: let them be attacked from the evil cult when they are in front of paladin, when he's starting to say that he's a bit upset about how they handled the situation. Start with a death attack from an hiding assassin to the paladin. Roll the save in secret and fake result: let paladin die. Then, start the fight, and if they eventually win, let them role play. They killed innocent people. They caused the death of paladin. The paladin player had innocent blood on his hand, and his careless caused even the death of a faith companion. Let charge him with the load of the dying paladin gaze. Let them find tracks on an evil cultist on how they received the order to attack after the cultist had followed them to the shop. Maybe a letter. Keep on loading emotions on the pc. Hopefully they will go to hunt down and exterminate the cult.
But....there is no cult in the shop, the minions are hidding in the shop, they killed "inocent" people, thats the problem.This is not a problem. First of all, your players did the wrong opening: if you're not sure if the shop hide an evil cult you don't start with "hi, we're evil cultist". Then, things things followed a natural course. Now, Lincoln's advice is pretty good: let them be attacked from the evil cult when they are in front of paladin, when he's starting to say that he's a bit upset about how they handled the situation. Start with a death attack from an hiding assassin to the paladin. Roll the save in secret and fake result: let paladin die. Then, start the fight, and if they eventually win, let them role play. They killed innocent people. They caused the death of paladin. The paladin player had innocent blood on his hand, and his careless caused even the death of a faith companion. Let charge him with the load of the dying paladin gaze. Let them find tracks on an evil cultist on how they received the order to attack after the cultist had followed them to the shop. Maybe a letter. Keep on loading emotions on the pc. Hopefully they will go to hunt down and exterminate the cult.
Don't tell them to regret their actions, make them regret their actions.
Don't bother forcing the PC paladin to atone unless they themselves suggest it is necessary. Atonement is best reserved for situations when the paladin knows he's doing the wrong thing, but it is the best bad option.
I disagree with Blackstorm on killing the boss paladin. I would actually let the dice decide. But hit hard enough that he /might/ die.
But....there is no cult in the shop, the minions are hidding in the shop, they killed "inocent" people, thats the problem.
Those minions now know that someone is after them, though. And they will probably strike quickly, before the incompetent heroes get their act together.
Have the Boss Paladin arrange for the resurrection of the innocents that were killed. Then have him charge the PC’s with the cost of the resurrections. If they don’t have the money available, make them work off the debt by serving the Boss Paladin until the debt is cleared.
Don't tell them to regret their actions, make them regret their actions.
Exactly what I mean.
Don't bother forcing the PC paladin to atone unless they themselves suggest it is necessary. Atonement is best reserved for situations when the paladin knows he's doing the wrong thing, but it is the best bad option.
Still, it would be wonderful if the paladin choose himself to atone.
I disagree with Blackstorm on killing the boss paladin. I would actually let the dice decide. But hit hard enough that he /might/ die.
From an emotional point of view, klling the paladin boss would be really shaken. Maybe you're right, it was better to don't fake the dice. But if the PCs was just a bait, to make the paladin come out? Maybe they follows the PCs and then focus their attacks to the boss paladin, in a suicidal like attack. Maybe they faked the "cultist shop", and then follow the PCs to make a surprise attack against paladin.
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One more question.
After the door was blasted, the minions are quite nervous. My players, previously identified as evil cultists (and then triying to say that are good characters, but for me, the situation became hostile for the minions inside), try to intimidate the minions, for me, that try was the trigger for rolling iniciative.
Do you believe i did well?
My players argued that they try to avoid combat but i argued they identified themselves as cultist, and for the minions inside that means you are going to kill them all.
One more question.
After the door was blasted, the minions are quite nervous. My players, previously identified as evil cultists (and then triying to say that are good characters, but for me, the situation became hostile for the minions inside), try to intimidate the minions, for me, that try was the trigger for rolling iniciative.
Do you believe i did well?
My players argued that they try to avoid combat but i argued they identified themselves as cultist, and for the minions inside that means you are going to kill them all.
There's no right answer, really.
You may have had other options. Did you resolve intimidate as a skill? If so, did you give it a serious chance of working?
GMing is hard. A common problem for ALL GMs is fighting back the instinct to force things to go the way you expected them to.
The players WILL defy your expectations. That is why they are there, otherwise you are playing solitaire. The dice are there to ensure that both you and the players have no idea what to expect. Your players did their job; they decided what they wanted to do, and they did it. Now show them what that means, even if you didn't have specific plans to do so.
There's a lot of talk about the omnipotent powers of the GM, the GM is like a god, what the GM says goes, etc, etc. Because of this, some GMs think the game's suppose to go the way they planned, and any deviation means the players are bad (or the system is imbalanced, or the module is lame, etc)...
The best skill you can learn as a GM is the ability to accept what just happened in the game — even if it ruins all your well-laid plans — and be quick in coming up with the next cool thing to happen.
That's why I recommend a surprise attack by the cultists. It's cool, it shows the players they made a mistake without being preachy about it, and it gets the plot back on track (I presume the plot was about thwarting a cult).
That's not the only option. You know your own game better than I. Take a moment to really accept what has already happened, and decide what the next cool thing will be!
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I see, i did that the intimidating attemp demoralize one of the minions (the last one to talk), the players try to give them an exit before the combat begins, but the reaction of the minions when the characters identified as cultist became hostile at the moment.
I think that the combat its a neutral act, neither good or evil, but my characters thinkk that its a good act (the minions are bad guys, they give them a chance to flee but all of this after the failure of my players "we are cultist").
I really believe that if someone call to my door, tells me that its an evil cultist...i take the guns and then...you can pray what you know, the city its under attack and you want to break in here? no way, tell whatever you want, im ready to defend myself.
The only time you can get away with saying "Yep, we are evil cultists" is in a Mel Brooks movie.
Which is not an entirely unpleasant tone to strike for a Pathfinder/Golarion game...
They could have identified themselves as land sharks too...
My question would be did the npcs have an escape option? Because that might have been a better result when the door starts to splinter.
I guess the bigger paladin ought to chew them out or threaten to take their badge, might call them loose cannons.
Is the cult watching the store? Does either side have any inkling of tradecraft/opsec? Did the PCs declare black op or did people see them bum rush the store?
How important is this or repercussions of this to the story? To the PCs stories?
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It was:
Knock, knock?
whos there?
This is the password, we are cultist, u know
Get away from here! (sound of sword inside)
No, no, we are good crusaders, open the door, we are goods, we can heal you
Get away
(The group breaks the door, chinese pause)
No, we need to enter in your keep and we will do, with or without your permission, we will register yoour belongins now, you can leave this place.
Minions are going to attack, roll iniciative.