Undead Lord achetype...corpse companion at start or not?


Rules Questions

The Exchange

It doesn't say in the description that he has to be able to animate dead just that by performing an 8 hour ceremony he can animate a skeleton or zombie from a corpse that will follow his commands and can't have more HD than the cleric.
So how does this work on the Undead Lord archetype?
Also any suggestions on a decent build for an undead lord?


Though it doesn't state what level you get the Corpse Companion at, it is presumably 1st level.

You don't have to be able to cast Animate Dead, that is what the 8 hour ritual is for. It is effectively a variant animal companion. But instead of increasing in power as you level, you can simply dismiss the current companion and create a new (more powerful) one as your level up.


Quote:
Also any suggestions on a decent build for an undead lord?

Don't.

The undead lord is a very weak archetype. The corpse companion is exceedingly fragile due to the tight limitations on its HD and templates, and will likely need to be replaced every single adventuring day. You simply won't have enough downtime to re-cast the 8 hour ritual every time your corpse companion kicks the bucket, so most of the time you won't actually have one.

You're basically trading off a full domain for nothing more than a bonus feat. And you lock yourself into the undeath domain, which is a pretty bad choice if you only get one domain. It's a bad archetype and unless your GM is willing to house-rule in some buffs don't even consider it.


For builds suggestions

Race
Human, Half elf, and Half orc (Core)
Changeling or Demodand-spawn tiefling

Special mention is the Dhampir, specifically Nosferatu-born. +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Con, but the real treat is their favored class bonus for cleric. +1 CL to channeling feats when affecting undead.

So an example build might be
Nosferatu-born Dhampir
Cleric (Undead Lord) 5/Agent of the Grave 5/Cleric +5

Str 8, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 14 (20 pt buy)
Str 10, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 14 after racials

I would take the Fangs alternate racial ability. The Favored Class bonus from Dhampir Cleric means even though Agent of the Grave doesn't advance channeling, when affecting undead you are still CL=character level.

The Exchange

Dasrak wrote:
Quote:
Also any suggestions on a decent build for an undead lord?

Don't.

The undead lord is a very weak archetype. The corpse companion is exceedingly fragile due to the tight limitations on its HD and templates, and will likely need to be replaced every single adventuring day. You simply won't have enough downtime to re-cast the 8 hour ritual every time your corpse companion kicks the bucket, so most of the time you won't actually have one.

You're basically trading off a full domain for nothing more than a bonus feat. And you lock yourself into the undeath domain, which is a pretty bad choice if you only get one domain. It's a bad archetype and unless your GM is willing to house-rule in some buffs don't even consider it.

Alright, appreciate the honesty. I want to make a cleric that has a bunch of undead eventually. I really don't have any idea what is a good way to go about so if you have any ideas please let me know. I need to be effective but I am more interested in the flavor than the crunch.


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I want to make a cleric that has a bunch of undead eventually

There's actually very little you need to do with your build. You want to take the "command undead" feat, but that's about the only thing that's necessary.

There are three relevant spells for a "minion-mancer" spellcaster. There's the obvious "animate dead" spell, the "desecrate" spell, and the "command undead" spell (no relation to the feat of the same name). I'll save you a flip through the rulebook to give you the catch: there is no class that has both desecrate and command undead on their spell list. The "Inevitable" subdomain cleric can cast command undead once per day with his 3rd level domain slot, but this is a poor alternative to a Necromancer specialist wizard who can prepare it many times with only a 2nd level spell slot. Bottom line: both the arcane and divine paths have different tools in the toolbox, and there's no right or wrong answer as to which is better.

You want to raise your own mindless undead with the animate dead spell, and you want to use variants to make them more powerful. Customize your zombies and skeletons appropriately. The "fast zombie" template is the best one for zombies, and the "bloody skeleton" template is the best one for skeletons. You will use the desecrate spell to give your undead additional hit points when they are created, and also allow you to create more powerful undead than you would otherwise be capable of. Although there is a cost to casting desecrate, it's well worthwhile. The lesser animate dead spell cannot create variant undead, and should be avoided since the resulting minions will be significantly weaker.

You want to use command undead (both the spell and the feat, if possible) to control any additional undead above and beyond the maximum you can control with animate dead. The command undead spell is particularly devious since it technically has no limit! So long as you have enough spell slots to re-cast it when the duration runs out (it's measured in days) you can control as many undead as you like.

Remember that ONLY racial hit dice count when determining how powerful an undead creature is. This means that humanoids are typically very poor targets for the animate dead spell. Animals and larger monsters are by far your best selections (a fast zombie troll is as difficult to control as four fast zombie humans, but far more powerful).

The Exchange

So would you want to mix cleric with Sorcerer or wizard to get both Command undeads? Maybe a Mystic Theurge build?


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So would you want to mix cleric with Sorcerer or wizard to get both Command undeads? Maybe a Mystic Theurge build?

At higher levels, the Mystic Theurge is the most powerful minion-mancer of all. It's not just the access to both class lists; you also are able to control more undead! This is because your wizard animate dead spell and cleric animate dead spell each have a separate cap of the maximum number of undead you can control.

However, there's a very serious catch: the mystic theurge is a very late-bloomer, and you will be sacrificing your higher-level spellcasting abilities. If you're beginning play as a 10th level character or higher, these are reasonable tradeoffs that might work for you. If you're beginning play at lower levels, I'd strongly advise against it. Mystic Theurges are incredibly frustrating if you actually have to play through their intermediate levels (often referred to as the "valley of suck"). If you do play as a Mystic Theurge, go with a Cleric/Wizard (necromancy specialist). Don't use the other classes, since they will take longer to qualify, and mystic theurge takes too long to qualify as-is.

There is another approach that is simpler and less intensive than Mystic Theurge if you want an arcane/divine combination: take a single level in Sorcerer. This will allow you to use wands that contain wizard/sorcerer spells, even if you don't have enough sorcerer levels to cast them yourself. Even a single level is sufficient for this purpose. Second, a Sorcerer's bloodline arcana applies to all spells, even those cast by other classes! This means that your chosen bloodline will still benefit your cleric spells. For instance, if you choose the undead bloodline you can use mind-affecting spells on undead that were once humanoids (note that many buffing spells are actually mind-affecting and won't normally affect undead). However, it still comes at a cost: your spellcasting and other abilities as a cleric will atrophe by one level if you do this.

I go back to my original point: a Cleric or Necromancer specialist wizard with the "command undead" feat is a great minion-mancer all on his own. If you want to do something more fancy, there certainly are options, but there's nothing wrong with the basic and straightforward "I know some spells and have a feat" approach.

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