Mythic Champion: Precision and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting?

[Yemeth]

If you can't guess from the title, does anyone know if the 3rd tier champion ability Precision also increases the attack bonus of off-hand iterative attacks once you get improved TWF and above?

[Chemlak]

There are two possible answers to this question. Since this is the rules forum, I'm going to hit the "strict RAW" first, and "common sense says the rules mean this" second.

1) No. Improved and Greater TWF grant additional attacks with the off-hand weapon at -5 and -10 respectively. These are not iterative attacks. As such they are not affected by anything that adjusts iterative attacks. Plus, Precision explicitly says that it does nothing to reduce the penalties from TWF.

2) Yes. TWF grants you a single extra attack at a penalty (reduced by the TWF feat). Precision does nothing to reduce this penalty. Improved and Greater TWF "unlock" specific iterative attacks for the off-hand weapon. Precision will reduce the penalties of ITWF and GTWF, the same way it reduces the penalties of iterative attacks of the main-hand weapon.

Me, I'm gonna go with option 2, until or unless the design team offer clarification.

[Duskblade]

I'd actually like to know the answer to this if possible, so if anyone has any further thoughts please feel free to share.

[Legowaffles]

Duskblade wrote:

I'd actually like to know the answer to this if possible, so if anyone has any further thoughts please feel free to share.

My assumption is no, as the Improved and Greater TWF feats have a situational penalty.

"Your deadly attacks are far more likely to hit their target than those of others. Whenever you make a full attack, your attack bonus on the additional attacks you gain by having a high base attack bonus is 5 higher. This ability can't give any of these attacks a higher attack bonus than your base attack bonus. For example, a 12th-level fighter normally has a base attack bonus of +12/+7/+2; with this ability, his base attack bonus is +12/+12/+7. This ability doesn't reduce the penalties from two-weapon fighting or other situational penalties on attack rolls (such as Combat Expertise, Power Attack, fighting defensively, or harmful conditions). You can select this ability more than once. Each time you select it, the attack bonus on additional attacks increases by another 5."

[Dragonchess Player]

^^^^^^^^
See the quoted text above for the champion's Precision mythic ability.

The key phrase is: "...your attack bonus on the additional attacks you gain by having a high base attack bonus is 5 higher." The additional attacks gained by Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting are not "gained by having a high base attack bonus," but by taking specific feats.

Technically, even a monk 8/champion 3 with Precision would have a Flurry of Blows at +6/+6/+6/+1, not +6/+6/+6/+6.

[Duskblade]

I know it doesn't eliminate the two-weapon fighting penalties, but I wasn't sure if the benefit only applied to the 'normal' amount of iterative attacks or not.

For example...

+20/+15/+10/+5 would change with precision to +20/+20/+15/+10

However, if we add two-weapon fighting into the mix, what happens then?

Do the off-hand attacks benefit from precision, or does precision not effect them?

Or in other words...

+18/+18/+13/+8 for main-hand with precision:

A) +18/+18/+13 for off-hand (if precision applies)

B) +18/+15/+10 for off-hand (if precision does not apply)

Which is it?

Again, sorry for being hard-headed, but I'm basically asking to see if hero lab needs to make this change or not, as the benefits from precision currently apply to off-hand attack when two-weapon fighting.

[Dragonchess Player]

Duskblade wrote:

Do the off-hand attacks benefit from precision, or does precision not effect them?

As shown above, the wording of Precision applies only to the base iterative attacks for BAB. Extra attacks from the Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain are unaffected.

Hero Lab doesn't always apply rules properly.

(Also, it should be +18/+13/+8 for the off-hand in B)

[haremlord]

I realize that this is an old thread, but a counter argument came to me last night.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mythicAdventures/mythicFeats.html wrote:

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING (MYTHIC)

With deft strikes, you gain an advantage over your foes beyond mere damage.
Prerequisite: Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: As an immediate action, you can expend one use of mythic power to negate the penalties on attack rolls for two-weapon fighting for a number of rounds equal to your tier.

If your interpretation were correct, that the penalties mentioned in Improved and Greater Two Weapon fighting were like that, then you wouldn't need to take Precision if you had Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. You would just need Mythic Two-Weapon Fighting.

The 20th level fighter with greater two weapon fighting (and at least one light weapon) would normally have:
+18/+13/+8/+3 "on-hand"
+18/+13/+8 "off-hand"
or
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3

With Precision once (and your interpretation) that would then be
+18/+18/+13/+8 "on-hand"
+18/+13/+8 "off-hand"
or
+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8

With Precision once (and the other interpretation) that would be:
+18/+18/+13/+8 "on-hand"
+18/+18/+13 "off-hand"
or
+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8

With Mythic Two-weapon fighting, however, and no Precision that would be:
+20/+15/+10/+5 "on-hand"
+20/+20/+20 "off-hand"
or
+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5

From that, I don't believe that the "penalties from two weapon fighting" refer to the iterative penalties, just the penalties specifically from the Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties table:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html wrote:

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties

Circumstances Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat –2 –2

[haremlord]

It was just pointed out to me that the penalties mentioned in Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting might qualify as "situational penalties" and thus not affected by either.

So... nevermind then.