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Hey folks! I happened along a thread earlier where someone was trying to build a shadow dancer, and I came up with my own build of how to do something similar with the horizon walker. I also noticed the build was likely to work to get the student of war PrC, with the following build:
Human, NG
Str 17, Dex13, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15 , Cha 8
Lore warden 6, Horizon walker 3, ?, Student of war 10
1 Power attack, Dodge, Skill focus (one knowledge, to be determined)
2 Mobility (Combat expertise)
3 Combat reflexes
4 Spring attack (+1 wis)
5 Endurance
6 Whirlwind attack
7 Lunge, Favored terrain (Astral)
8 Favored terrain (anything), Terrain mastery (astral), +1 str
9 Dimensional Agility, Terrain dominance: Astral
10 ???
11 Dimensional Assault, Improved critical (falchion)
12 +1 int
13 Dimensional Dervish
14 Blind Fight
15 (1 feat)
16 +1 str
17 (2 feats)
18
19 (1 feat)
20
I swapped out the fauchard (useful weapon, but the EWP feat was in the way) for the falchion. I like the student of war because this guy has little use for dex (even in skills).
However, I'm looking for some more stuff. Namely, I have 1 level (level 10) that I have no idea what to do with. I wanted to try to get heavy armor proficiency (Mithril fullplate, here I come!). However, the only option I see is taking a level in cavalier (not terribly useful, but it does give me the armor proficiency). I'm looking for other (more creative) ideas. Although I'd prefer staying away from divine classes.
Still, I'm really happy I could make a good build for an intellectual warrior. Any ideas would be welcome.
Edit: I was thinking maybe the gun tank archetype of the gunslinger?
Really? Nobody has anything to say?
It's the weekend things get weird around here during that time.
I guess I'll bump it tomorrow. I'm used to there being more people.
A note: I might displace lunge for a bit to take whirlwind attack at level 7, and skill focus at level 3. Lunge would be later. I kinda want the fauchard.
Thanks for the tip.
Basically, this guy has no precise role. But it can serve several purposes:
-Mobility: Dim door allows you tremendous mobility on the battlefield when combined on dim dervish.
-Taking out mooks: Whirlwind is great to take out mooks. Combined with dimensional dervish, I can door in, attack, door out. Considering dim dervish lets you move between each attack you could hit a hundred mooks before having to jump out. Not necessarily a common case, but I found the combo very peculiar and effective against a large amount of enemies.
-Skill monkey: Combined with high int and generally decent skill point amounts, you can get a considerable amount of skill point. The various classes also cover 90% of skills as class skills.
BTW: Gendarme cavalier would be excellent, thanks. I'm wondering what order would be the best? Order of the tome would be the best flavor-wise.
Mainly, this was (to me) the accidental creation of an exceptionally powerful build, and an "archetype" that I've wanted to build for a while (Dim dervish fighter, intellectual fighter). In any case, thanks for the help.
armored hulk (barbarian) would give heavy armor and also enough rounds of rage to potentially help you out if you run out of dimension doors, or find yourself in some other jam.
this is the opposite of what you asked for, but a level of any kind of monk (including martial artist, if you don't want to be lawful) will get you improved unarmed strike- which keeps you from ever being unarmed and will help you meet the requirements for the Kirin Style feat tree. (it would also get you a decent AC bump while unarmored)
you could also just spend a feat for heavy armor and use the level for something interesting? 1 level of Inq would get you a domain (travel might work really well for this build/theme) and monster lore for more mileage out of your knowledges. 1 level of kensai would get you exotic weapon proficiency and weapon focus for whatever weapon you want, one 1st level spell (take Feather Fall or True Strike- no somatic components, so no ASF%), and 4 arcane points for upping your weapon's enhancement bonus. vivesectionist (alchemist), possibly with mindchemist (depending on what you want to buff) would give a 1d6 sneak attack (for when you flank with yourself) and a 10 min buff (from mutagen/cognatogen). heck- you could even do 1 level of wizard [conjuration/teleport] for the extra swift action teleports (same deal as magus- just take spells with no somatic components).
and, of course, you could always just take a 7th level of lore warden for that version of Know Thy Enemy... it based off knowledge skill, not class level, so it'll scale well.
I like this build for its creativity, but one thing that comes to mind is that you're going to be super MAD (multiple ability score dependent). Namely, you'll need Strength, Dexterity (you took Combat Reflexes after all), Intelligence (so you can actually have the skill points to make use of Student of War), Wisdom (so you can have multiple dimension doors in a day), and probably some Constitution so you don't die. That basically means that you're going to dump Charisma, which will feel weird since your build clearly wants mental stats to matter.
My suggestions would be as follows:
1) Drop Strength in your build, go Dex-focused. You need to lose some dependency on ability scores if your build is going to succeed. I will keep Strength at 12 or 13 and instead focus on a Dexterity-based build. If you don't like the idea of using a Scimitar, grab Martial Versatility (human-only, Advanced Race Guide) and pick another one-handed weapon that you would rather use.
In the long run, this will REALLY help you out, as your Strength Score won't matter much higher than 13 (assuming you want Power Attack).
2) Spring Attack seems like a wasted feat at higher levels because you'll have the Dimensional Dervish chain, which basically does the same thing but a billion times better. If you're going for Whirlwind Attack, you might want to think about grabbing Cleave and Great Cleave, especially if you are still thinking about keeping your Strength high enough for Power Attack. Great Cleave isn't as reliable as Whirlwind Attack, but its much less of a feat investment, will not be invalidated by your later choices, requires three feats instead of two, and all of the feats in its chain are solid. I'm looking at you, Mobility.)
3) Going along with the, "Picking feats that are invalid," theme, Mobility is a bit of a bust because Student of War will give you its benefits for free if you pick the defensive stance. And again, at that level Dervish Dance is doing Spring Attack's job better.
4) You're ignoring the biggest advantage of going Lore Warden / Student of War; MASSIVE COMBAT MANEUVER BONUSES. At that point in the game, you'll have a +4 from Lore Warden, a +1 from Student of War, and Combat Expertise as a bonus feat, which is the prerequisite for almost every combat maneuver worth doing! I personally recommend trip and dirty tricks, as placing penalties on your opponents is lovely.
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I'm gonna throw some stuff out here. You have skill focus at first level. Take the human alternate instead, which gives you skill focus at 1, 8, and 16 instead of the human bonus feat. Because you simply won't lose anything.
For heavy armor classes, you also have the armored hulk barbarian or paladin as options.
Thanks Kiinvan, you're the second person to have recommended me this (for another build). I keep forgetting it. I should automatically think: human + skill focus- racial alternate. Doy!
@ nate lange: Several good ideas, but the feats for heavy armor would end up coming a bit late. That and monk would be cool, but I have to say this is the first time I want to make a character that's a bit of a bruiser. I'll stick with heavy armor for the moment.
BTW: I skipped level 7 lore warden because I found the student of war version slightly better.
@ Alexander augunas: The build you're describing (high dex, dim door) is basically the one I'm using for a magus I'm currently playing (rather, I'll be playing it once I reach level 13). And yess, I know my current build is MAD, but it uses the MADness extremly well. It'll be an issue, but an issue I can live with. I wont play this dude against the tarrasque, but they would slaughter an army of orcs.
I prefer whirlwind to great cleave because of the lack of adjence requirement. I cant hit anybody twice, but with lunge I can hit anybody within 15'.
And yeah, a bunch of feats are unnecessary, but if I want whirlwind (which I do) they are necessary.
As for maneuver bonuses (that are quite high indeed), I'll probably take some improved maneuvers at higher level if I find nothing better.
I'm wondering what knowledge would be best for the whole student of war thing. I'm thinking local to best fight humanoids.
Consider using a reach weapon to threaten larger areas, also consider Guided property on it and focus more heavily on wisdom.
You might want Quicken Spell-like Ability at higher levels.
If you go Half-Orc instead of Human, you can get Endurance as a bonus feat, and arguably the other half-orc stuff is better than human's +1 skill point per level (when considering the human bonus feat as paying towards endurance).
Or you could go ranger 3 levels for free Endurance. Freebooter and Trapper stack and are nice archetypes for those only dipping Ranger.
well- if you want a bruiser, armored hulk is probably the way to go, lol
lore warden Know Thy Enemy would stack with SoW...
i know most of your skills will be knowledges, but if you can afford stealth (which probably means spending a trait too) having both KTEs would be cool- sneak to someone, observe for 1 round to activate SoW KTE (move action), LW KTE (standard action), and potentially Kirin Style (swift), then (round 2) jump that sucker with a bunch of bonuses going (you can't use kirin strike and dimensional dervish in the same round- but since you can only DD 5-6/day, it'd give you a way to spend your swift action other rounds).
also- my main motivation for suggesting kensai was that you mentioned wanting to use the fauchard... a 1 level dip would get you proficiency and weapon focus for the fauchard for free (well, free except the lost point of BAB...)
@ stream of sky: Originally, the build included the Fauchard (at the cost of EWP) but the adition of cavalier allows that to work very well with lunge.
I've seen the idea of dipping into ranger (in the thread where I came up with the build) but it doesnt currently tempt me.
I'm also wondering if quicken sla would be necessary considering I have DIM dervish which does that on a full attack.
Half-orcs would probably be mechanically better, but I'm not a fan of half orc. Darkvision is always a good thing. Personally I prefer the "Focused study" alternate trait for humans.
@ nate: yeah, the kensai would give quite a lot of versatility (especially as to empowering the weapons), and allow me fauchard. I'd lose a feat, gain a feat. Gotta think about it.
Note; would canny defense stack with mind over metal? And would he still be able to use it in heavy armor? How about weapon focus? It's starting to look very attractive.
Quicken SLA would mean you only need it and Dim Agility to effectively have Dim Dervish and would thus save you the fairly useless Dim Assault feat. Although it would take longer to acquire (CL 16, so at best level 15 with an Orange iuon stone).
Even if you do get Dim Dervish, Quicken SLA could be useful for instances where you'd like to swift dim door and then do something other than full attacking.
Oh, I'll definitly not forget quicken SLA, I'm looking for good high level feats.
canny defense only works in light armor (and is capped at your level). if you wore mithril breastplate you could stack it with mind over metal, yes. that only gives you +1 AC with a 1 level dip (but that is on top of everything else it gives you). kensai get wf as a bonus feat at 1st so you're actually gaining 2 feats (because theyre also automatically proficient in their chosen weapon- which you would pick fauchard for).
if you had more levels to play with a 4 level dip could make mithril breatplate better than mithril fullplate (if your Int is high enough), and would let you spend an arcane point to deal x3 on a crit... but that would require more reworking, lol
@ nate: Yeah, I'm already reworking for a single level dip. It would also be like a free Iron Will, so good on that. No 4 level dip though. This character would be a bit of a dilettante, with levels in Lore warden, Gendarme, Kensai, Horizon walker, and Student of war.
Well, Dazing and/or Stunning Assault are also good feats.
excellent use of "dilettante" lol
Yeah, this character would make a bard appear outright focused.
I'm starting to think the kensai dip would be excessively useful, mainly to compensate for those times I cant use my preferred weapon (IE fauchard) to give them keen and at least a +1 on attack/damage. I'll post a modified build after supper.
In any case, I thought the guided property was limited to clerics, so I consider myself well set up.
Also, I dont know if I'd ever be able to play this character in PFS. Whe only really start to shine at level 13 (although she's no slouch beforehand) so it's not really interesting when you're capped at 11.
Note: Anybody have any ideas for a cavalier order? she has to take one at level 5 for that level of gendarme.
Also, she'll only really be able to cast one spell per day, because of the whole kensais start with 0 spells before int.
Funnily enough sensten, this build came to me while I was thinking of somebody else's shadowdancer build. Good catch though. I think I'll stick to Lore warden, Gendarme, Kensai, Horizon walker, and Student of war.
(here's the original thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q4x2?My-try-at-a-Shadowdancer-would-love-some# 25 )
BTW, I've made a drawing of the character, I'll post it and the build in a little while. Her name shall be Félicité Des Chênes.
@Alexander Augunas - Cleave wont work with this build because it is a specific standard action and Dimensional Dervish is utilizes a full attack action. Not to mention the adjacency issue, you'd be Dimension Door-ing to enemies who were in no way adjacent to the originals.
With Whirlwind attack he gets an attack at each opponent within reach and since he's allowed teleports between attacks he vastly increases his number of potential targets.
I think you might be confusing Dervish Dance with Dimensional Dervish.
@Williamoak - remember if you are human your build only allows you 60 feet worth of teleporting around because it's capped by both the distance of the ability used (Dimension Door which is much farther but read on) and by twice your movement speed (presumably 30 feet). The exception being if you were flying on a plane with subjective or no gravity where I believe your fly speed in this build is 60. So anything that increases your movement speed will increase your teleporting around and in theory increase your potential for opponents attacked.
At a certain point though you'll only be fighting so many opponents at once so I also worry about how often you can use your trick. Is five to six times a day good enough?
Stuff that gives you extra teleport or dimension door is awesome for this concept. What about Cape of the Mountebank? Boots or Helm of Teleportation?
One level of Wizard with the teleport sub school will give your build 4 to 5 more hops but they'll all be five foot hops and that's arguably not worth it.
I somehow see this character having a pair of dimensional shackles and being a cross dimensional bounty hunter.
Nice stuff Errant epoch. Well, it looks like I seriously misunderstood dim dervish: I thought you where able to move up to the total distance of the dim door (IE 400+40*level). With mithril armor, I'll still be able to get 60 feet. Though I'm wondering now what I can use to either get more DIM doors, or more overall speed (boots of haste?). With the kensai dip, I add UMD to my skills, allowing me to use a wands (quite the boon).
In any case, here's the myth-weaver file for my basic build:
I've built her up until level 13, not sure what to do after that but its not like I'm playing her either. That arcane pool really is useful though. You dont get full use out of it, but still.
Edit: I'm thinking boots of expeditious retreat. As far as I can tell, if I wanted continuous use, it would cost:
1*1*2000*2 (because of the min/level condition) bringing it to 4000 gold for an extra 30 feet base speed. Since it's a base speed bonus (not an enhancement) it stacks with everything else i'd expect.
With haste, that goes up to 90 feet. So 180 feat of dim door distance. NEED MORE SPEED BOOST! MOAR!
I'm not sure about the custom item you propose, my troupe rarely allows them, but boots of striding and springing would get you +10 movement constant and in my opinion that's better than boots of speed. Dimension Door is fourth so you could wand it but you'd need quick draw or a glove of storing to get around handedness for casting it even with UMD. I'd have to read UMD again to see if it works with DIM Derv's action but I figure it will if DIM Derv specifically makes the spell a swift action and you can take free actions at any point during your turn.
Free action- retrieve wand from glove of storing
Swift action- UMD wand of DD (this is only a swift because of DIM DERV noramally a standard)
Free action- store wand to glove of storing
Free action- quick draw weapon
Full attack action- teleport around to a max of double movement speed broken up however you like by five foot increments, attacking people adjacent to where you land (one attack per target, using whirlwind attack)
I think it works.
I'd probably go for an item (like cape of the mountebank, but better). Still, adding to wisdom is likely to be more valuable in the meantime. I'm fond of custom items (I love crafting). But boots of expeditious retreat are likely to be more useful (with the +30 feet), although I'm not sure about my cost since it technically makes them cheaper that boots of striding and springing. but, it gives no skill bonus.