silent image question... can the cubes move around within range?


Rules Questions


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hello does anyone know if the cubes of silent image can move around the battlefield or once established are they stationery?

SILENT IMAGE
School illusion (figment); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a bit of fleece)
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration concentration
Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with); Spell Resistance no
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The cubes are your established area of effect. You can move your illusions with in them, but once set, the cubes themselves are static.


LazarX wrote:
The cubes are your established area of effect. You can move your illusions with in them, but once set, the cubes themselves are static.

where does it say the spell effect is static? the way my group plays the spell is you can move the effect itself around within the range of original casting.


mandor the barbarian wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The cubes are your established area of effect. You can move your illusions with in them, but once set, the cubes themselves are static.
where does it say the spell effect is static? the way my group plays the spell is you can move the effect itself around within the range of original casting.

Where does the spell say you can do that?

Just because it doesn't say you can't do something doesn't mean it's permissable. This comes up often.

It is far easier to state exactly what the ability does, rather than provide an exhaustive list of the things it can't do.

On the list of things it can't do, move the cubes. The images inside the areas affected can move, but the cubes selected do not. You can play it your way, but you're incorrect by RAW.


Claxon wrote:
mandor the barbarian wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The cubes are your established area of effect. You can move your illusions with in them, but once set, the cubes themselves are static.
where does it say the spell effect is static? the way my group plays the spell is you can move the effect itself around within the range of original casting.

Where does the spell say you can do that?

Just because it doesn't say you can't do something doesn't mean it's permissable. This comes up often.

It is far easier to state exactly what the ability does, rather than provide an exhaustive list of the things it can't do.

On the list of things it can't do, move the cubes. The images inside the areas affected can move, but the cubes selected do not. You can play it your way, but you're incorrect by RAW.

The spell effects for this is static??? really? Could you post some evidence that the RAW states this. My group also allows the effects to move based on initiative.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

When you cast the spell you decide the placement of the area affected. Once you cast the spell that area is set. You can move the illusions around in that area at will, but that area can't be moved.


The evidence is in the spell itself. There is no more RAW for it than that. If the area of effect could move it would say such. The images inside the area of effect can appear to be moving, but the areas where the images are is static once chosen. There is really no more RAW to it than that.

It really boils down to, where does it say you can move the area of effect in the spell? It doesn't. So you can't. Spells do exactly what they say. No more, no less.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Silent Image wrote:
Effect visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
CRB, Magic chapter wrote:
(S) Shapeable: If an area or effect entry ends with "(S)," you can shape the spell.


Jiggy wrote:
Silent Image wrote:
Effect visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
CRB, Magic chapter wrote:
(S) Shapeable: If an area or effect entry ends with "(S)," you can shape the spell.

Well I stand very corrected. This is why I don't play spell casters. I never would have noticed that S in the spell if it had bit me on the kiester.

Edit:
If it wasn't for that meddling S, I would have been right!
(Said in my best Scooby Doo villain voice)


You say "if the area of effect could move it would say such". On what basis do you assert this? The D&D rules have never been great about explicitly stating all their assumptions. For what it's worth, the way I've always seen it run (and "always" goes back to pre-1E) was "you can create something of that size, then move it around however you want within range."

The term "area of effect" is specific to spells with the "Area" descriptor; silent image and friends do not have that descriptor. They have "Effect":

Effect visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)

The rules explain effects:

"You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range."

The spell's description says "You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect."

This strikes me as creating two weak presumptions which contradict each other. The general effect rules seem to indicate that if a spell's effect can move, it can move anywhere. The text in the spell sort of suggests that it means to limit the image to staying within some area -- but it could also be understood to mean that, for instance, you can't create an illusion of two things and then move them apart so they can't fit within the spell's stated effect size anymore.

Ah-hah! I think I found the answer.

Subjects, Effects, and Areas: If the spell affects creatures directly, the result travels with the subjects for the spell's duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration. The effect might move or remain still. Such an effect can be destroyed prior to when its duration ends. If the spell affects an area, then the spell stays with that area for its duration."

Note that they are making a clear distinction here between spells listed with an "area", and spells listed with an "effect". Spells with effects might move or remain still; spells with areas are fixed in place. Since this is a spell with an effect, not a spell with an area, the effect might move or remain still.

I would take this as meaning that, since this is an effect and the spell description explicitly states that it can be moved, that it can indeed be moved. If it said "Area: Four 10-ft. cubes, plus one 10-ft. cube per level", then it would be fixed in place -- you cast the spell, an area is targeted, the spell affects that area always. But it says "Effect", so it's under the Effect rules, which are different.


Jiggy wrote:
Silent Image wrote:
Effect visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
CRB, Magic chapter wrote:
(S) Shapeable: If an area or effect entry ends with "(S)," you can shape the spell.

what does shapeable really mean? does it mean u can shape things to "fit" or does it mean your effect "cubes" can move within range?


The (S) just makes it more confusing. (S) does not inherently imply that you can reshape the effect, just that you can shape it -- and also clearly states that the minimum dimensions are 10 feet. So that strongly suggests that the spell is creating a contiguous region of 10' cubes within which you are creating images. But it's really not obvious whether the intent is that the region itself can move.

That said, if it can't, given that none of the higher level spells change this, even very high level illusions are severely limited here in a way I've never seen anyone play them.


seebs wrote:

The (S) just makes it more confusing. (S) does not inherently imply that you can reshape the effect, just that you can shape it -- and also clearly states that the minimum dimensions are 10 feet. So that strongly suggests that the spell is creating a contiguous region of 10' cubes within which you are creating images. But it's really not obvious whether the intent is that the region itself can move.

That said, if it can't, given that none of the higher level spells change this, even very high level illusions are severely limited here in a way I've never seen anyone play them.

Just because no one you've seen plays them that way doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong. People often misinterpret the rules and then extend that misinterpretation to others.

Edit: And I think I finally have a definitve answer.

Major Image

Quote:

Major Image

School illusion (figment); Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3

Duration Concentration + 3 rounds

This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect. While concentrating, you can move the image within the range.

The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately.

If this spell works exactly like silent image except it adds sound, smell, and temperature why would it also need to point out that while concentrating you can move it with the range. Since Silent Image lacks these words it seems clear it cannot be moved.

Shapeable apparently just means you must make all the 10ft cubes contiguous and that you can decide how they are arranged at the beginning of the spell.


A good question. I actually have a suggestion, though, as to why the sentence needs to be there regardless.

Silent image's duration is "Concentration". Major image's duration is "Concentration + 3 rounds". (Minor image is Concentration + 2.) So it might be that the distinction being drawn here is that you can only move the image while concentrating, and that in the remaining 3 rounds of duration, you cannot continue to move the image.

I note also: I went and looked at the 3.5 books, and they are subtly different; they have parentheticals giving examples and illustrations. So, for instance, "if the effect is mobile" gets "(such as a summoned monster)".

I think this suggests that the intent was probably that Major Image can be moved around within the range, but Silent and Minor image can't. Which is a surprise to me, but I guess it makes sense.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I love making posts that do nothing but quote rules verbatim, and then watching what people do with it. Sometimes I even learn something myself. :) Side note: Would you believe I've actually been accused of making personal attacks with such posts?


Jiggy wrote:
I love making posts that do nothing but quote rules verbatim, and then watching what people do with it. Sometimes I even learn something myself. :) Side note: Would you believe I've actually been accused of making personal attacks with such posts?

I surely didn't take it as a personal attack. I don't know why anyone would. How can you take a verbatim post of the rules as a personal attack if nothing more is said. To me, it's a moment of "S%&!, I'm dumb for not noticing the rules."

In this case, an initial reading of shapeable swayed my opinion. But further review returned me to the original view point. Which based on the Major Image Spell and it's function and it's high level nature than Minor Image or Silent Image makes me believe quite strongly that I'm correct.


The interpretation we've used is that you can specify where the 10' cubes are in the range, and the image can move within those cubes, but the location of the cubes themselves are fixed for the duration.

Claxon wrote:


Shapeable apparently just means you must make all the 10ft cubes contiguous and that you can decide how they are arranged at the beginning of the spell.

Where does it say that they have to be contiguous? I would've ruled that they don't. Most of the time they will be, but I'm imagining a 'wack-a-mole' type scenario where you have an image popping up at random from holes in the ground over a scattered area - non-contiguous 10' cubes, with the image moving between them.


Graeme wrote:

The interpretation we've used is that you can specify where the 10' cubes are in the range, and the image can move within those cubes, but the location of the cubes themselves are fixed for the duration.

Claxon wrote:


Shapeable apparently just means you must make all the 10ft cubes contiguous and that you can decide how they are arranged at the beginning of the spell.
Where does it say that they have to be contiguous? I would've ruled that they don't. Most of the time they will be, but I'm imagining a 'wack-a-mole' type scenario where you have an image popping up at random from holes in the ground over a scattered area - non-contiguous 10' cubes, with the image moving between them.

The description under shapebale doesn't make it 100% clear one way or the other to me. When I read it, I feel like it implies that it's contiguous, but I don't really have any evidence of any sort. And I could be totally wrong on that.

In any event, the interpretation you describe is exactly how it functions. A 10th level caster would choose 14 10ft cubes where the image appears. Insides of those cubes the images can move around as much as the caster wants. But the specific location of the cubes cannot move with Silent Image.

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