Greetings all. After going through with my cleric in a few high-ish (15th level) games lately I've come to realize something: Saves absolutely suck for casters longterm.
This is the current formula for save DC's is:
10 + caster modifier + spell level + misc modifiers.
The formula I'm proposing is:
10 + 1/4 caster level + caster modifier + spell level + misc modifiers.
For the caster let's assume my cleric at 20th level, with a 30 wisdom. Non-spell-focus spell.
Old DC's ---> New DC's
1st Level: 21 ---> 26
2nd Level: 22 ---> 27
3rd Level: 23 ---> 28
4th Level: 24 ---> 29
5th Level: 25 ---> 30
6th Level: 26 ---> 31
7th Level: 27 ---> 32
8th Level: 28 ---> 33
9th Level: 29 ---> 34
For the defender of that affect lets assume my 15th level monk raised to 20th level. He's got a +6 in all save stats since Con, Wisdom and Dex are all important to monks with a +5 cloak of resistance. D20 + 23
What number does he need to roll to save? (Assume 1 auto-fails)
Old DC's ---> New DC's
1st Level: 2 ---> 3
2nd Level: 2 ---> 4
3rd Level: 2 ---> 5
4th Level: 2 ---> 6
5th Level: 3 ---> 7
6th Level: 4 ---> 8
7th Level: 5 ---> 9
8th Level: 6 ---> 10
9th Level: 7 ---> 11
My goal with this new formula was to allow for some lower spells to remain at least PARTIALLY viable at higher levels.
Monk's are 'medium' saves. "Full" saves are +3 higher, "Low" saves are -3 lower. So the numbers still work fairly well for those classes that are not middle of the road.
Thoughts? Comments?
Scratch that last line. "Full" saves are indeed 3 higher, but Low saves are actually 6 lower. But that can be offset by the feats that bump your saves by 2.
The problem is casters are already in the winning position. Making that position more secure does not make sense.
So your lvl 20 monk example he has a 30% chance of dieing outright it changes to 50% in your proposed system.
I can't really see how its a positive change.
I
I don't see how they are in the winning position as is. I pretty much assume all of my 1st through 3rd level spells, as a cleric, have a 5% chance of working (they have to roll a 1) 5th through 7th (all I have access to at this point) the mobs typically have to roll a 7 or lower to fail. Which is unfortunate because while some lower level spells have more powerful equivalents, not all do.
Look at Spear Of Purity, Searing Light, and Holy Smite-- all spells that are "iconic cleric spells" for damage...and yet their saves are pitifully easy to make.
Banishment especially-- despite being at a +4 bonus for having something the creature hates, and it being a +2 from spell focus... the Glabrazu we were fighting still had to roll a 8 or lower for it to work. That means if it was the sorcerer in our party doing the banishment, the same level as me, the Glabrazu would have had to roll a 2 or 3 to fail-- basically a guaranteed success.
This change is bad.
MOnk are suppsoed to have great saves, taht is one of their forte, what happens when you target a weak save?
Without going too far, your 20 level cleric, with 18 dex and a +5 cloack of resistance have +15 reflex save.
A wizard then cast a dazing 9th level evocation spell. Your cleric needs a 19 or he will just lose the fight.
So, basially everytime someone target your weak save you lose, every time you target the ewak save of an enemy you win. I do not see the fun in it.
Consider being on the receiving end of spells based on those save DCs. Does that sound fair to you? How about one targeting your weak saves? Don't be too quick to want your spellcaster's offenses to be improved unless you're quite happy when you're the target.
The real problem is that saves are linked to spell level at all.
Why does a blunt, obvious effect like Dominate Person have the same save DC as a more subtle emotion effect like Smug Narcissism?
Why does a line effect like Lightning Bolt have the same save DC as a space filling explosion like Fireball? What makes Delayed Blast Fireball so much harder to avoid than Fireball?
Every non-spell ability DC is 10+level/2+stat Spells should probably be the same but with a varying constant, higher for weak, subtle effects and spells that are single target at levels when multitarget is available and lower for unusually powerful effects.
Bill Dunn wrote: Consider being on the receiving end of spells based on those save DCs. Does that sound fair to you? How about one targeting your weak saves? Don't be too quick to want your spellcaster's offenses to be improved unless you're quite happy when you're the target. Oh trust me I have considered being on the receiving end, I've seen entire encounters in our games break because we were ripping through saves like they were nothing. Even if my change alone doesn't "fix" it, it definitely seems like there's a problem with save progression in pathfinder.
The formula is
10 + modifier + level + misc.
the 10 is static. The modifier goes up slowly. The level caps. and "misc" rarely is higher than a +2.
Let's assume that the 10 was chosen because it represents "half way" or "50%" on the d20 roll.
So we have:
Modifier + level + misc bonuses
going up against
Ever increasing base saves + modifier + magical bonus + racial bonuses + misc bonuses.
Thats a weighted system that HEAVILY favors the defender and that leads to a situation at higher levels where the rule of thumb for casters is "Don't even bother reading what happens if they fail the save, because it will probably only happen if they roll a 1 or a 2."
A single spell can end a fight, it would be boring if everytime the caster cast the fight ends.
By listing out the type of modifiers doesn't tell the whole story.
Let’s look at ability modifier along. As a wizard I could (and most will do) start with 18+2 racial that's 20, upgrade Int booster ASAP and cast wish or eat a book to make my Int to be 20+5+5+6=36, that's a +9 to DC
On the receiving end of course you have your own ability modifier to counter that caster's ability moodier, a simple 36 con, 36 dex and 36 wisdom will do... WAIT, is it possible at all? Most likely you will find an attribute that's only 14 or lower (likely to be dex), that nets the caster 7 points in advantage
That is because offensive full caster is extremely SAD， at the receiving end you will never catch up with them in term of ability score.
and let's take a look at level VS base save. ONLY monk has 3 good saves, so everyone else get at least 1 bad save. By lvl 20 good save means 12 and bad mean 6. Since one DC against 3 saves, caster can always choose a low save so it's 9 vs 6, that's another 3. Yes that's using the highest lvl spell, but if you wish to reliably one shot a lvl 20 opponent using a spell you've been using since lvl 3, the thing that goes wrong is your expectation not the system.
Most races don't have a straight up racial save bonus, except dwarf and Halfling. The ones that only protect from a single school can be bypassed by using spells from another school very easily.
Magical item bonus I give you that, so 5 points back.
7+3-5=5, the competition is still 5 points favorable to casters. Which means a 75% chance of one hit the target. To archive "fail only when they roll a 1 or a 2."，you still need to get a 12-13 increase in ALL saves. Seriously tell me where you can find them...
And we haven’t reached the spells that ignore save or still have effects even if saved yet. I doubt anyone on the board would agree casters need a boost to their power. They are THE most powerful being in the system already.
Eric Griffith wrote:
Thats a weighted system that HEAVILY favors the defender and that leads to a situation at higher levels where the rule of thumb for casters is "Don't even bother reading what happens if they fail the save, because it will probably only happen if they roll a 1 or a 2."
It's supposed to be weighted in the defender's favor. That's why resistance bonuses are so cheap compared to stat bonuses. That's because the most common defender is the PC.
solarius wrote: I doubt anyone on the board would agree casters need a boost to their power. They are THE most powerful being in the system already. Careful, this is the internet. It'll argue about just about anything. There are people who think the game is balanced as is and that casters are the boring classes that don't get anything cool...
Anyways, yeah, despite some hyperbole, bad saves are barely kept up to casters by a cloak of resistance, if that. SAD gives a major advantage. How many martials start or even raise a save stat as quickly as a caster raises their casting stat?
Low level spells aren't meant to be used as save or loose / suck / die / whatever into the mid to late game. They're meant to be buffs and utilities. Adapt your spell list accordingly.
Bill Dunn wrote:
It's supposed to be weighted in the defender's favor. That's why resistance bonuses are so cheap compared to stat bonuses. That's because the most common defender is the PC. Are they the most common defender though? Maybe it just varies based upon the DM and group but to me (playing for 7yrs with the same DM) it seems like the monsters are the ones usually having to make spell saves and they typically have bonuses where its "they need to roll at least a 6" and it just comes off like "And I try...why?"
I LOVE my cleric, don't get me wrong. Clerics are quickly becoming my favorite class but it feels like even with being greater spell-focused to the spell school I use the most (abjuration-- banishment, dismissal, dispel ______) my DC's are just pathetically easy for the monsters to make.
Eric Griffith wrote: Are they the most common defender though? Well, to state another opinion, it hurts the PCs far more to fail a save or die than mook #12. Its also crazy anticlimactic. At level 1 you can have a color spray with a DC 15, 50% chance of an npc with a will save of 5 failing it.(which is generous imo!) I've seen whole rooms of foes cleared by a single color spray.
In the case of banishment, supposing 24 wisdom and no feats into it you can hit an outsider with a DC 23 will save at level 11. Hezrou demon have a will save of 9, Erodaemon of 12, Barbed Devil a less than amazing 8. Still in the defenders favor? If your level 8 you can hit 2 of those barbed devils, and with greater spell focus and an object that repulses them you can hit them with a DC 27. They need to roll a 19 to match the DC, 20 to go over it. Your almost guaranteed to remove at least one from battle.
ShadowcatX wrote: Low level spells aren't meant to be used as save or loose / suck / die / whatever into the mid to late game. They're meant to be buffs and utilities. Adapt your spell list accordingly. Fair enough. Lets go through the list then and we'll see, maybe I'm just using the wrong spells. "D)" denotes domain spell.
Domains: Destruction ---> Catastrophe, and Good ---> Archon.
Caster Level: 14
Wisdom Modifer: +8
Relevant Feats:
1) Spell Penetration
2) Greater Spell Penetration
3) Elven Spirit
4) Spell Focus -- Abjuration
5) Greater Spell Focus -- Abjuration
0
1) Purify Food and Drink
2) Detect Magic
3) Read Magic
4) Create Water
1
1) Bless
2) Detect Evil
3) Air Bubble
4) Doom
5) Entropic Shield
6) Shield of Faith
D) Divine Favor (or True Strike)
2
1) Grace
2) Resist Energy
3) Bull's Strength
4) Spear Of Purity
5) Spear Of Purity
6) Spear Of Purity
D) Gust Of Wind (or Align Weapon)
3
1) Magic Circle vs Evil
2) Chain Of Perdition
3) Resist Energy Communal
4) Sacred Bond
5) Invisibility Purge
6) Magic Vestment
D) Prayer (or Call Lightning)
4
1) Tongues
2) Dimensional Anchor
3) Freedom Of Movement
4) Holy Smite
5) Holy Smite
6) Holy Smite
D) Holy Smite (or Inflict Critical)
5
1) Breath Of Life
2) Flame Strike
3) True Seeing
4) Spell Resistence
D) Dispel Evil (Or Shout)
6
1) Banishment
2) Banishment
3) Greater Dispel Magic
4) Heal
D) Harm (Or Planar Ally -- Archon only)
7
1) Holy Word
2) Destruction
3) Greater Restoration
D) Holy Word (or Control Weather)
MrSin wrote: Eric Griffith wrote: Are they the most common defender though? Well, to state another opinion, it hurts the PCs far more to fail a save or die than mook #12. Its also crazy anticlimactic. At level 1 you can have a color spray with a DC 15, 50% chance of an npc with a will save of 5 failing it.(which is generous imo!) I've seen whole rooms of foes cleared by a single color spray.
In the case of banishment, supposing 24 wisdom and no feats into it you can hit an outsider with a DC 23 will save at level 11. Hezrou demon have a will save of 9, Erodaemon of 12, Barbed Devil a less than amazing 8. Still in the defenders favor? If your level 8 you can hit 2 of those barbed devils, and with greater spell focus and an object that repulses them you can hit them with a DC 27. They need to roll a 19 to match the DC, 20 to go over it. Your almost guaranteed to remove at least one from battle. So maybe its more the monster's the DM chooses? As I said above, we had a Glabrezu the other night who despite a DC 28 or 29 will save to avoid the Banishment (Holy symbol of a Ragathiel counted as an object he hated) the DM said his roll had to be a 8 or higher to make the save. And when the sorcerer in the party tries to do banishment I seriously just roll my eyes because it seems like a solid 75-80% of the monster making the save
the glabrezu have +11 will save. Witha DC of 28 he wil lned a 17 to saves, unless that was a stronger than normal glabrezu.
By the other hand, Banishment automatcally eliminate the outsider from the fight. Against a equal CR enemy to have 60%+ of changes of whining the fight with one action do not seems fun to me.
Eric Griffith wrote: So maybe its more the monster's the DM chooses? Could be, but a galbrezu is actually on par with your CR if you have access to 7th level spells. Glabrezu have a +11 will save btw. Pretty sure he does not make a DC 29 on an 8, but math isn't my strong suit. That might be a problem with your DM, but... I don't know what's going on there.
Nicos wrote: the glabrezu have +11 will save. Witha DC of 28 he wil lned a 17 to saves, unless that was a stronger than normal glabrezu.
By the other hand, Banishment automatcally eliminate the outsider from the fight. Against a equal CR enemy to have 60%+ of changes of whining the fight with one action do not seems fun to me.
Wasn't just a glabrezu in the fight. Was a glabrezu, another demon, 2 wizards and one assassin type. We (5 person party that night) were all level 13 or 14.
Maybe it was a stronger than normal Glabrezu, I don't know. All I know is DM pulled out his 'fate die' he uses for win/lose saves and said he needed to roll at least an 8. Thankfully he rolled a like 3, but still.
how do you have 28 DC at level 13?
Eric Griffith wrote: Maybe it was a stronger than normal Glabrezu, I don't know. All I know is DM pulled out his 'fate die' he uses for win/lose saves and said he needed to roll at least an 8. Thankfully he rolled a like 3, but still. Well it would have to be a stronger than normal one to need an 8. Another thing is that banish could've hit the other demon if he was of 14 HD or less(if you were level 13 I mean).
MrSin wrote: Eric Griffith wrote: Maybe it was a stronger than normal Glabrezu, I don't know. All I know is DM pulled out his 'fate die' he uses for win/lose saves and said he needed to roll at least an 8. Thankfully he rolled a like 3, but still. Well it would have to be a stronger than normal one to need an 8. Another thing is that banish could've hit the other demon if he was of 14 HD or less(if you were level 13 I mean). I...never actually noticed that Banish could do more than one creature till now o_O
Nicos wrote: how do you have 28 DC at level 13? 10 Base
06 Spell Level
08 Modifier
04 "Item present the creature hates"
----
DC 28
The system works both ways, and torn down the offensive side's power helps pc more than hurts them. There is reason behind why keen and improved critical no longer stack from dnd 3.0 to 3.5. Monsters die too easily doesn't matter at all because DM can bring more or tougher monsters the next time; PC easily get killed/disabled/possessed every session is another story. By the same logic, bring up the DC makes PC suffer, while hardly hurt the monsters (they are supposed to die anyway, just a little quicker now)
Oh, and monsters benefit from your rule more than PCs do, because usually their HD/caster level is much higher.
Eric Griffith wrote: Bill Dunn wrote:
It's supposed to be weighted in the defender's favor. That's why resistance bonuses are so cheap compared to stat bonuses. That's because the most common defender is the PC. Are they the most common defender though? Maybe it just varies based upon the DM and group but to me (playing for 7yrs with the same DM) it seems like the monsters are the ones usually having to make spell saves and they typically have bonuses where its "they need to roll at least a 6" and it just comes off like "And I try...why?"
Yes, PCs are the most common defenders. How many times will PCs have to make saving throws against spells compared to any other individual creature? Over the life of a game, each creature you encounter will have to roll a save, what, 2 to 5 times as the PCs put it out of its misery. How many will a PC make over the course of its life? PCs may impose several saves in the course of an encounter, but they're playing through a lot more encounters before they're through and it's the aggregate that makes them the most common defender. Over the course of their lives, their ACs will be targeted more than any other creature, their saves will be targeted more often, they'll lose more hit points. Hopefully (and even this may be untrue thanks to raising the dead) dying will be one of the few things they won't do as often.
The real problem here is that too many abilities/effects are all or nothing dependent on the die roll. What I'd really like to see—and maybe I'll work on this if no one else is doing it/has done it—would be a revamped spell list where all these save-or-suck spells had partial effects. (I realize that this might seem like gravy for a wizard who's already loaded up on SoS spells, but it could be accompanied either by additional rules to mitigate this boost or by a recommendation for responsible gaming.)
Flak wrote: The real problem here is that too many abilities/effects are all or nothing dependent on the die roll. What I'd really like to see—and maybe I'll work on this if no one else is doing it/has done it—would be a revamped spell list where all these save-or-suck spells had partial effects. (I realize that this might seem like gravy for a wizard who's already loaded up on SoS spells, but it could be accompanied either by additional rules to mitigate this boost or by a recommendation for responsible gaming.) Also true, I burned through quite a few spells in last night's game that had zero effect because they saved. Eventually I just said 'screw it' and stood there with the Aura Of Menace (Supernatural ability, not spell version) up just so I was helping the party a bit in the fights.
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