|
I love Illusionists.
I had one back in second edition days that took heavy use of spectral force to bend and manipulate reality to mind bending levels.
He took on an army alone, cast spectral force, and would seed chaos through the ranks of the army by tugging on purse strings, whispering messages into their ears, and many other things along the way.
He would make fake attacks appear, hide himself from view, have ghostly soldiers appear and disappear. This turned into a riot amongst them all, where they army began to kill each other, massive amounts of combat breaking out.
Sadly, there doesn't seem to be a spell like this, that relies heavily on DM interpretation and player imagination. Or is there?
How would one create an illusionist to cause a bit of chaos?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As I wrote on a different thread, illusion is all about misdirection. You don't beat the bad guys, they beat themselves.
Step 1. Ask yourself "what's the absolute stupidest thing that the bad guys could do right now?"
Step 2. Ask yourself "what would make them do that?"
Step 3. Make it so.
As I wrote on a different thread, illusion is all about misdirection. You don't beat the bad guys, they beat themselves.
Step 1. Ask yourself "what's the absolute stupidest thing that the bad guys could do right now?"
Step 2. Ask yourself "what would make them do that?"
Step 3. Make it so.
I have to second this one, as I had a campaign in which there was a conjurer who fell back on using illusions quite often. An army was once lost because he used a well placed Ghost Sound of all spells (it caused them to charge out of hiding thinking that the party's artifact bearing warmage was down (he wasn't)).
I would go through the list of illusion spells and mark down a list of fun spells followed by what they can do. Then if you run into a situation where you need something nifty, check your list for what can suit your parameters.
I hope this helps.
Edit: Rereading what you responded, I'm not sure how you could create the effects via a single spell. Using Hal. Terrain or Mirage Arcana might suitably spook an army, especially if you pair it with multiple uses of Ghost Sound (yay cantrips!). A ring of invisibility or multiple castings of the spell could help you get around and keep dropping spells (or you could hide in the fictitious terrain). Ghost soldiers could be done by a rather easy silent image, with Ventriloquism really spooking them as voices come from their midsts. Haunting Mists does Wis damage and makes targets shaken, and as a 20ft radius spell it can hit a large group (especially if you use metamagic to boost its size).
It has been my experience that playing an illusionist successfully requires two things:
1. A good GM who isn't trying to beat the players.
2. A firm agreement between the GM and Illusionist player about how illusion spells work.
|
You need to focus on getting very high DC's. The trick to any illusion is the belief of your opponent. Spend sometime looking at how to get a very reliable DC to as many of your spells as you can. Preferred Class benefits, racial modifiers, feats, class features, equipment, stats, the works. If you can have your opponent looking to roll 20's on your weaker spells you're doing great.
That is exactly what I'm working on here. I'm just trying to find the little minute things that allow this to happen properly.
The three most important things that allow this to happen properly are:
1) Imagination
2) Imagination
3) Imagination
I can provide a list of the three next most important if you like.
Specifically, "silent image" has only very broad limitations on what you can make. It's a visual illusion only, and it has to fit into a certain huge volume. However, within that volume limit, you can make people see whatever you want them to. The only limit is your imagination.
You need to distract enemy archers? You could create the image of a medusa walking toward the fight, removing her veil from in front of her face You could create the image of a supermodel walking toward the fight, removing everything but her veil. You could create a horde of shambling zombies, or a brick wall with arrow slits and the glint of metal from arrows behind it. Any or all of these will give the rogue a chance to move behind the archers.
You need to focus on getting very high DC's.
Well, if you're good enough, by which read, creative enough, you don't need to do that. You only get saves against illusion spells if you "interact" with them. [SRD: "Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion."] People don't typically interact, for example, with every person they see in a crowd or every storefront they walk past.
If you're in a forest, an illusionary leaf will go completely unnoticed.
... and un-saved-against.
You need to focus on getting very high DC's.Well, if you're good enough, by which read, creative enough, you don't need to do that. You only get saves against illusion spells if you "interact" with them. [SRD: "Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion."] People don't typically interact, for example, with every person they see in a crowd or every storefront they walk past.
If you're in a forest, an illusionary leaf will go completely unnoticed.
... and un-saved-against.
I once witnessed a monster lose a fight because the wizard started using illusiory walls after he ran out of real wall spells. Imagination really does equate to 3/4 of what the spells can do.
Wizards and sourcerers are usually the best bets for this sort of spellcasting. Either one can really work, sourcerers have an advantage in that you will always have illusion spells on hand and will never be facepalming because you had one too few Mirage Arcanas prepared for the day. On the other hand, the Phantasm sub-school has a really nifty 8th level ability whereas I don't recall any illusion heavy bloodlines that weren't focus on shadows.
Edit: You mentioned the Veiled Illusionist archetype, I believe there is a prestige class called that also. It might be worth looking at.
Well.. Should I play a Wizard, Witch, Cleric, Sorcerer, Oracle?
Which is better as an illusionist?
IMHO, the best straight-up illusionist is the sorcerer. Illusionists don't need a wide list of spells known, and they'll have the flexibility of picking whatever illusion spells they need on the fly; they can also dynamically use metamagic to increase range, duration, area-of-effect, and so on, so their spells are that much more flexible.
That said, I think wizard illusionists are better overall characters, because that at least gives you the option of throwing a real fireball or a fake one. The problem pure illusionists have is that once their opponents realize they're dealing with Samsara, Master of Phantasms, they simply start disbelieving/ignoring everything and you lose much of your ability. If they know all you can do is make fake stuff, they assume everything is fake and ignore it. ("Hey, there's a medusa over there." "Relax, it's just an image. Concentrate on the guy in the back with the holy symbol; he's the real threat.")
|
|
Well.. Should I play a Wizard, Witch, Cleric, Sorcerer, Oracle?
Which is better as an illusionist?
I know the Veiled Illusionist Archetype, What are the thoughts on it?
I am biased, I prefer wizard specialists. If you go for Shadow focus then look into races like the Wayang which flow well that choice. A lot of things that support other casters are good baselines for you. I do not know very much about Oracles but Charisma is a great casting stat because it dovetails with Bluff and Diplomacy for potentially necessary skill checks, so it seems like a solid path to investigate. Witch, as far as I know, is not very good at this, but can make a ridiculous Sleep build. I wouldn't try with a divine caster, wrong spell list. Can you link to the archetype? I didn't spot it.
@Tristram & Orfamay Quest
I'm not arguing that imagination is not critical, however Illusions are unique in that once anyone saves, they can cause a re-roll with a +4 bonus to everyone else they can communication with. In order to ensure that your tricks are reliable in as many situations as possible you need to have good DC's. Will Saves are also some of the easier to find bonuses for. I am sure you're not actually arguing that an Illusionist tank spell DC's (which is a character feature), so I'm not sure why you think I'm arguing the same Illusionist dump imagination (which is a player feature). You can have both a good personal imagination and the numbers to ensure your creativity is brought to life at the table. I was under the impression that was Espy Kismet's entire point for starting this thread ("How do I build a successful Illusionist in this system? What are the optimization tips?")
I would say that it also helps if you have someone who can do some of the things you are making illusions of. Tricking the squad of militia men into thinking you summoned a dragon only works so many times before they start to figure out that you can't get a dragon. But if you are clever...
I once witnessed a monster lose a fight because the wizard started using illusiory walls after he ran out of real wall spells. Imagination really does equate to 3/4 of what the spells can do.
... and if you have charm monster, and make it a real dragon just 10% of the time, then they will have to think twice before they try anything. That is the time you can spend preparing something else.
Of course, you could also plan for them to ignore your illusions, but lead them to their doom anyway. They might try to charge through your silent image of a dragon, and then fall into the pit you hid underneath it.
Overall, I think it might be good to go with a wizard or cleric, since they can prepare a wide variety of spells that are reinforced by your illusions (although...a spontaneous caster might work well with creativity on the fly). Try to combine illusions with other spells (some type of pit spell+silent image) to maximize their effects and redirect your enemies however you want. Wizards and bards might be nice since they have the skill points to put into social skills, which can let you bluff and diplomacy your way out of many situations (get traits to make social skills class skills with wizards though).
I'm not arguing that imagination is not critical, however Illusions are unique in that once anyone saves, they can cause a re-roll with a +4 bonus to everyone else they can communication with. In order to ensure that your tricks are reliable in as many situations as possible you need to have good DC's. Will Saves are also some of the easier to find bonuses for. I am sure you're not actually arguing that an Illusionist tank spell DC's (which is a character feature), so I'm not sure why you think I'm arguing the same Illusionist dump imagination (which is a player feature).
I'm not. But I'm pointing out that, to a well-played illusionist, save DCs are not as important as they are to other specialties (evocation being a classic example). Your goal can and should be to avoid having people make saves at all.
For the same reason, focusing on spell DCs as an optimization point may be misguided. One of the more fun illusionists that I played actually played as a monk -- as in, dressed like a monk, acted like a monk, had good physical attributes like a monk, and even had spent a number of feats for monk-like abilities (most notably Improved Unarmed Strike).
This isn't optimizing for spell DC, in fact, it's almost the opposite. But he was optimized for misdirection, in that very few people expected him to be a spell-caster, which provided a tremendous tactical and strategic advantage.
So, yes, perhaps I am arguing that an illusionist can tank spell DC.
|
|
The problem pure illusionists have is that once their opponents realize they're dealing with Samsara, Master of Phantasms, they simply start disbelieving/ignoring everything and you lose much of your ability. If they know all you can do is make fake stuff, they assume everything is fake and ignore it. ("Hey, there's a medusa over there." "Relax, it's just an image. Concentrate on the guy in the back with the holy symbol; he's the real threat.")
THis is easily circumvented by mixing in enough realism to force the NPC's to be making a choice. "Is this Wall of Fire fake, or is it THAT one?". Summon your best monster, then summon 5 more illusory after its been beat on a bit "Oh great, he just summoned MORE reinforcements! We surrender!" Which is another reason to keep your DC's up.
I haven't seen this mentioned, but in my experience one of the most crucial things you can do when putting together an Illusionist character is to sit down and have a long talk with your GM over exactly what figments and glamours are, how patterns work and the nature and capabilities of shadow-casting. You guys have GOT to be on the same page when it comes to illusions and how they are going to work in your game - it'll save a lot of time and frustration later.
Also, I find the specialist class to be an uneven one, given that some illusion spells are grossly over-powered for their level while others significantly under-powered - but when the limits are often your imagination, well...
|
|
I do not agree that taking physical feats in place of class-oriented feats to "throw the bad guy off" is a good long-term strategy. At level 1 a Wizard with good physical stats and Improved Unarmed Strike is not incredibly different from a Monk, but at level 10 you're missing out on things that would be better used to enhance your actual purpose.
This isn't optimizing for spell DC, in fact, it's almost the opposite. But he was optimized for misdirection, in that very few people expected him to be a spell-caster, which provided a tremendous tactical and strategic advantage.
So, yes, perhaps I am arguing that an illusionist can tank spell DC.
It's just not optimizing at all. I can use illusions and disguise to accomplish all of that without spending very valuable feats on it.
The problem pure illusionists have is that once their opponents realize they're dealing with Samsara, Master of Phantasms, they simply start disbelieving/ignoring everything and you lose much of your ability. If they know all you can do is make fake stuff, they assume everything is fake and ignore it. ("Hey, there's a medusa over there." "Relax, it's just an image. Concentrate on the guy in the back with the holy symbol; he's the real threat.")THis is easily circumvented by mixing in enough realism to force the NPC's to be making a choice. "Is this Wall of Fire fake, or is it THAT one?". Summon your best monster, then summon 5 more illusory after its been beat on a bit "Oh great, he just summoned MORE reinforcements! We surrender!" Which is another reason to keep your DC's up.
Heh - in our skull & shackles campaign we laid siege to a small keep with about 20 or so small earth elementals summoned by our Master Summoner while our capatain sat on the beach and sipped wine under an umbrella... then she had an illusion cast creating the appearance of another 40 rising from the ground, awaiting orders to attack and then gave them the opportunity to surrender.
Obviously, they did.
@Tristram & Orfamay Quest
I'm not arguing that imagination is not critical, however Illusions are unique in that once anyone saves, they can cause a re-roll with a +4 bonus to everyone else they can communication with. In order to ensure that your tricks are reliable in as many situations as possible you need to have good DC's. Will Saves are also some of the easier to find bonuses for. I am sure you're not actually arguing that an Illusionist tank spell DC's (which is a character feature), so I'm not sure why you think I'm arguing the same Illusionist dump imagination (which is a player feature). You can have both a good personal imagination and the numbers to ensure your creativity is brought to life at the table. I was under the impression that was Espy Kismet's entire point for starting this thread ("How do I build a successful Illusionist in this system? What are the optimization tips?")
Sorry, I never meant to come off as sounding like DCs aren't important. I am a firm believer in using both imagination and high DCs (I generally assume most casters aim for high DCs anyways (don't shoot me for generalizing, I know not all need to)). I just feel like the imagination part needs to be emphasized, as I have seen people stumble around trying to be clever with illusions in all the wrong ways (forcing interactions with the illusions, using something not intimidating enough, or too showy to be convincing, etc).