Most difficult PFRPG AP?


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion


Howdy,

My group and I are close to wrapping up Rise of the Runelords - which, despite many of my best efforts - was a bit of a cakewalk.

(Well, they are headed into the final module, so maybe that one will be the end...)

At any rate, for our next AP, I want something much, much, much more challenging.

Of the APs that people have played, which offers the biggest challenge? My group tends to be gamerey btw, very much into stat max/min, etc. Unlike me.


the base assumption for all APs is 4 players using a 15 point buy, anything more then that are probably going to be cakewalks (i myself and my players all roll stats so we come out higher then 15 points usually)

Paizo Employee

Did your players mind the low difficulty? If they're enjoying themselves, I wouldn't sweat it, honestly.

If it does bother them, I'd suggest running whatever interests everyone (by theme) and just tossing in more powerful monsters here and there. I've used the Advanced Template for that before or given monsters max HP (admittedly, in a game where PCs have max HP).

The new templates in Mythic Adventures look good for that too, but I haven't used them extensively yet. If I were going to Mythic up a bunch of monsters in an AP, I'd probably use Reign of Winter. It seems like a good fit.

That said, it's always a risk to up the ante when things feel too easy. Depending on your players, it's entirely possible they could be more optimized than they are. You might just start an arms race.

Cheers!
Landon


I haven't seen much of it myself, but if you're open to non-Paizo campaigns, there is Slumbering Tsar. It's made by the people who made Rappan Athuk, and it eschews the concept that players should always face "level-appropriate" encounters. Character death is expected: the CRs fluctuate widely, forcing players to think strategically about which battles to engage and which to run away from and regroup for. It is sandboxy in that it provides a expansive locations that they can (more or less) explore in any own order, with very few Event-based encounters,

Besides that, I think that 90% of what you're looking for is in adjusting encounters yourself, given what you know of your players and what they're looking for. This might include adding more creatures or adding more HP from behind the screen. Or you can solve the problem from the other direction, and give them a low point buy and lessen the loot they receive.

Another idea is to try out Wrath of the Righteous but to scale back on the perks it gives to PCs. (I've read Volume 1, and there are a lot of NPCs that ally with the party to make encounters easier, story-based XP, and powerful magic items.) Its theme of taking on a DEMON WAR and its leaders could be thrilling to your players, if they're looking for a good challenge and you successfully adjust treasure, XP, and encounters to meet your needs.

Liberty's Edge

gonzosports wrote:

Howdy,

My group and I are close to wrapping up Rise of the Runelords - which, despite many of my best efforts - was a bit of a cakewalk.

(Well, they are headed into the final module, so maybe that one will be the end...)

At any rate, for our next AP, I want something much, much, much more challenging.

Of the APs that people have played, which offers the biggest challenge? My group tends to be gamerey btw, very much into stat max/min, etc. Unlike me.

The easiest solution would be to run Wrath of the Righteous but don't have the players get mythic levels. That should be a nice challenge.

Liberty's Edge

Carrion Crown was incredibly difficult for us and we were even pretty well optimized both in general and for the AP (Paladin, Cleric, Alchemist and Fighter).

Sovereign Court

You should try the Dragonlance Age of Mortals adventure path. There are some massively dangerous battles as well as potential TPK scenarios. Believe me of all the adventure paths I've read this one is the hardest final battle I've ever seen!

Spoiler of the final battle:
The final battle consists of a CR 29 Frost Dragon Overlord and FIVE CR 19 Frost Wyrms. Basically the final encounter is built in such as way that unless you find the way to De-Power the Dragon Overlord he will pretty much slaughter the party (CR 29 VS a level 20 party is a deadly scenario). The Dragon has a massive AC which you'ed probably need to roll nat 20's to hit unless you're a maxed out warrior type with the +5 weapon. The dragon also has special runes carved on his body which activates 1d3 random magical powers FOR FREE every turn (he has 6 different runes that do massive damage or other dangerous effects). The most deadly one of them being a DC 25 Save or Die effect. What makes it harder is that the Adventure path is VERY stingy with magical item distribution. While they do get a few powerful artefacts most of their gear will be at best a +2 modifier. They do have a +5 dragonlance by the end of it but it requires someone playing a Lawful Good character to fully use its powers and that will be the best item they'll find (Most of the other gear maxes out at a +2 modifier). Its the ultimate challenge! Unless the PC's make some MAJOR plans on how to beat the Dragon Overlord the final battle will likely end up as a TPK.


Only allow the players a 10-point build and halve the amount of treasure found. Also disallow any Crafting Feat. The combination of extremely low stats and the inability to purchase magic items for everyone (or find a lot of magic items) will make things much more difficult.

Personally I'm more for letting my players have fun. But I also originate from a mindset of "reduced treasure" and higher stats so....

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Darkfire142 wrote:

You should try the Dragonlance Age of Mortals adventure path. There are some massively dangerous battles as well as potential TPK scenarios. Believe me of all the adventure paths I've read this one is the hardest final battle I've ever seen!

** spoiler omitted **

I ran that one...it was a lot of fun, good epic high fantasy scenes. The last adventure encounters varied between laughably easy and pure murder, but that's a symptom of high level play in general, and depends greatly on party composition. It's 3.5 and meant for players using the 3.5 Dragonlance material, so some serious conversion would be needed for PF. My group did learn learn one lesson though:

Protip:
Don't charge the mind controlled dragon with your artifact dragonlance "to soften her up" before switching to subdual...yeah, 20 points of Con damage softened her all the way to dead.

I second the idea that you simply try using a smaller PB in your next campaign.

Sovereign Court

Good to hear you actually ran the adventure until the end Ryric. I've tried to do that for years but the players drop before we even get half-way through the first book. But yea despite the big aforementioned item the PC's won't have more than +2 gear while fighting this encounter. The low number of magical items and money allocations is another reason why its tough.


Way of the Wicked.

Of Paizo's APs, Wrath looks pretty tough, but I haven't played it yet. Kingmaker, which I have run multiple times, can be very difficult for a party that isn't prepared to think differently. The random encounter table can be brutal. lvl1 party vs 4 trolls brutal. Also, in the first, and to a lesser degree the following volumes, your characters can easily find themselves days way from help. Later on, high level PCs will face the horrific, and often astounding, realization that they cannot, in fact, defeat an invading army alone.


If you limit your PCs to 4 and a 15 point buy and pull no punches, Skull & Shackles can be a killer, especially early on. Also, probably disallow hero points.

I've realized while running Skull & Shackles that ability scores are huge and 15 point buy is essential if you want to run the game as written and have it be a challenge all the time. Even 4d6 minus lowest skews closer to 20 than 15 point buy and makes a big difference. I think 5 players can be offset by maxing out enemy hit points instead of giving them median hit points as written in the AP and Bestiaries.


I killed more players in King Maker than any other AP. I wouldn't call it hard though. Just some nasty encounter as the wrong time in the wrong place while exploring. Like one random encounter was Great Cyclops in the mountains when they were 7th level. It was wrong place wrong time due to to being a fairly narrow an steep mountain trail. So no mounts. The Gr Cyclops moves at 50 so they took a beating running away. I had to fudge it so they didn't die. Conveniently they found cave to hide in. The Cyclops collapse the entrance forcing them into mini dungeon crawl that winged my way through for them.

The set encounter the group found quite easy. It was the random stuff in the wilderness nailed them hard. Usually just bad luck though.

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The Age of Worms AP is probably the deadliest you're going to get from Paizo.


Ah! Age of Worms is awesome. And there is a conversion from 3.5 to Pathfinder on these boards.

And the end boss is just awesome:

Spoiler:
You fight a god.

The Exchange

1) Reign of Winter is very challenging. The combination of environmental rules and some mean opponents make the first couple of adventures hard, and a certain encounter in part 1 has already garnered a reputation as a high TPK potential. In addition, I hear part 5 has a surprise encounter or two that are sure to give your PCs a hard time *wicked grin*.

2) Carrion Crown has varying levels of challenge to it's different modules, but some parts of it are insanely hard if the GM wants them to be. Not only are some of the combat encounters dangerous, but the AP puts another strain on PC resources by actually forcing them to invest in things PCs don't usually depend on, like a lot of diplomacy, knowledge and perception skill checks, because there are actual investigation segments to the story.

3) Shattered Star has a LOT of dungeon crawling, and the later into the AP you go, the more dangerous those dungeons become. Part 4 has a boss fight that's sure to shake your PC's confidence, part 5 in general looks really hard to me (though unlike the rest of the stuff I mentioned, this is based purely on my assessment as a reader - the rest is based on reports I read of people actually playing those APs), and part 6 will NOT be a cakewalk, even for a high powered party that has an artifact. Also, end boss of campaign is wicked cool.

Then again... Rise of the Runelords is also considered rather difficult, with the ogres usually netting some kills in part 3, and a real threat of loosing in any part of the AP. The stone giant wizard from part 4 shouldn't be too easy either, and obviously the runelord himself is a kill machine. Maybe you are going too easy on your PCs?


I would second Tsar. I gm'd 10 or so sessions 5 deaths. Bring back-ups. Bring a back-up for him/her too. Next session...did you make another back up?

It's got everything.

Custom monsters (your players are probably unfamiliar with, good vs. the munchkin-y guys)
Varied CR
HEXCRAWL transitions to massive dungeon (I'm a fine, others aren't)
Cannibalistic Trees
A friggin Tar Dragon
A city that corrupts.
A lich who can't sleep at night, instead of working just sits and waits for morning so as to not disturb his neighbors.

Let me just give the low down.
You're group has been slated by the Church of Light (insert Pathfinder Dieties if you want) to recover a book wrote by a paladin some oh...I think 500? years ago. In the middle of the city of the damned. He was ordered to hold his ground until reinforcements came. There was a massive army, a combination of the lawful evil and good aligned members against an army of Chaos sent by Orcus. Both disappeared. Go forth and conquer.

If you really want some lethality(pick up the Sword and Wizardry ruleset, OD&D at it's finest)


RotRL was far and away the toughest campaign my group has ever played through for a variety of reasons... but I imagine every GM puts his particular stamp on it.

One reccomendation might be Skull n Shackles - the underwater combat rules really put unprepared or inexperienced parties at a deadly disadvantage. Then again, if your best efforts as a GM were unable to challenge your party in whatever AP, I'm not sure what to reccomend to make up the difference.


Landon Winkler wrote:
Did your players mind the low difficulty? If they're enjoying themselves, I wouldn't sweat it, honestly.

This is an excellent point. I've known players - entire groups even - who put a tremendous amount of work into pre-plannign their characters specifically to be able to overcome the challenges they will face, become attatched to thoe characters and would rather a campaign a little on the easier side than losing their beloved creations. Sometimes its just about sight-seeing, about experiencing the rich story, environment and character's you'll meet along the way. If they're all having fun, I can't imagine there being a reason to change anything.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Path / General Discussion / Most difficult PFRPG AP? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.