Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Under special materials, many of them can be used on "other items." Do these include magical items? For example, could you have a darkleaf Handy Haversack? Or a Griffon Mane Cloak of Resistance? Several of them explicitly mention that they can form the basis of magical items. (for example: If an item made of griffon mane is magically given the ability to fly, the cost to add that specific magical property is reduced by 10%,)
I can't find anything in the rules that prevents this, and while the FAQ says you cannot upgrade *from* a named magic item, it says you can upgrade an appropriate shaped / material item *to* a named magic item.
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Just poured over the new Guide. There's nothing in there restricting it. I'd have to look for the thread that talked about making Celestial Armor out of other materials to see if there's any guidance there.
I've personally always believed you could have a Darkleaf Handy Haversack and a Griffon Mane Cloak of Resistance, so my vote is "Yes". I don't think it falls under the "Custom Item" rules, but then again I can't find where those rules are written right now anyways.
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More specifically, I am buying a (non magical) Griffon Mane Cloak. I am then upgrading it (via the rules for upgrading) to a Cloak of +1 Resistance.
Ditto buying a a Darkleaf Backpack, and then upgrading it to a handy haversack.
I haven't reviewed either of these materials, but . . .
Is there language to say what has to be done to enchant them? What comes to mind is cold iron. There is a very real cost involved there. If there is no information on enchanting these material then it is an unknown and unknowable (in society play) value and you can't do it.|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Griffon Mane Cloak: 10% discount to enchant with flight effects, otherwise, beyond the normal "must be masterwork" no difference.
Darkleaf: price includes masterwork, enchants as normal as far as I can tell.
For the record, there is also no information on what has to be done to mithral or adamantine. Are you really saying those can't be enchanted in society play? In fact the only material which says what has to be done is cold iron (double cost), Griffon Mane (10% discount on certain effects), Dragon Hide (20% ? discount on certain effects.)
(No enchanting adamantine will make a lot of magi very mad at you.)
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The closest special material that I can think of is Dragonhide. If you have Dragonhide Breastplate (only costs 2 Prestige) and the skin comes from a Red dragon, then adding fire resistance (normally 18,000gp) would only cost 13,500gp. You would still have to pay the 1,000gp for a +1 enhancement before you could add that, though. And I would imagine you would still need the fame to purchase an 19,700gp item.
So it looks like a Griffon Mane Carpet of Flying (5x5) would cost 18,400gp (400gp for 8lbs. of Griffon Mane, and 18,000gp for the discounted ability to fly). Since Griffon Mane is included in additional resources as a legal special material, I don't see how this wouldn't be legal.
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I know someone with a halfling character who argued that a billow cape was a legitimate base material for his cloak of resistance. I never GMed for that character so I never had to worry about it, but what do people think? I could see arguments in both directions.
To save you some trouble: Yes, the name is "cape" but the description refers to it as "this cloak." (See for yourself.)
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And, for the record:
GRIFFON MANE
This rough-spun cloth, ranging in color from golden-brown to brown-black, is woven from the mane of leonine magical beasts, primarily griffons but also chimeras and manticores, and is exceptionally strong and light. Wearing a cloak, robe, clothing outfit, or padded or quilted armor made from griffon mane grants a +2 competence bonus on Fly checks. If an item made of griffon mane is magically given the ability to fly, the cost to add that specific magical property is reduced by 10%, though this does not reduce the cost of any other abilities the item has.
Griffon mane has twice the number of hit points of normal cloth and hardness 1.
Type of Griffon Mane Item / Item Price Modifier
Light armor / +200 gp
Other items / +50 gp/lb.
...and...
Darkleaf cloth is a special form of flexible material made by weaving together leaves and thin strips of bark from darkwood trees, then treating the resulting fabric with special alchemical processes. The resulting material is tough as cured hide but much lighter, making it an excellent material from which to create armor. Spell failure chances for armors made from darkleaf cloth decrease by 10% (to a minimum of 5%), maximum Dexterity bonuses increase by 2, and armor check penalties decrease by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
An item made from darkleaf cloth weighs half as much as the same item made from normal cured leather, furs, or hides. Items not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of darkleaf cloth. As such padded, leather, studded leather, and hide armor can be made out of darkleaf cloth (although other types of armor made of leather or hide might be possible). Because darkleaf cloth remains flexible, it cannot be used to construct rigid items such as shields or metal armors. Armors fashioned from darkleaf cloth are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Darkleaf cloth has 20 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10.
Type of Darkleaf Cloth Item / Cost Modifier
Clothing / +500 gp
Light armor / +750 gp
Medium armor / +1,500 gp
Other items / +375 gp/lb.
...making a Griffon Mane Cloak of Resistance cost 1,050gp (since it weighs 1lb), and a Darkleaf Handy Haversack cost 3,875gp (since it weighs 5lbs).
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I think there's a difference between making an item out of special materials and making an item out of another item. The former is using special materials for exactly what they were designed for, while the latter is making a custom item.
This exactly. Making Griffon Mane Cloak of Resistance +1 is fine, a billow cape of resistance +1 is not. (at least not in PFS)
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And turning a billow cape into anything else is explicitly against the FAQ (cannot upgrade a named magical item type, the only exception is that if it has a +X in it's name, you can go from +Y to +(Y+1))Billow Capes aren't magic items.
RAW there is nothing to stop you from gaining the benefit of a billow cape and a cloak of resistance at the same time. Magic Item slots by definition only relate to magic items. Not so sure where this would be RAI.
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And turning a billow cape into anything else is explicitly against the FAQ (cannot upgrade a named magical item type, the only exception is that if it has a +X in it's name, you can go from +Y to +(Y+1))Billow Capes aren't magic items.
As an example that we have all seen, Elven Chain can be enchanted, so there is no doubt in my mind that a billow cape can be enchanted, but what happens to the billow cape's natural effects, who knows.
I'm not sure that El Baron de los Banditos' assumption that the natural effects go away is true. We enchant items all the time that have special properties and most times it doesn't affect those abilities. Dragon hide armor is one example. I wish that I could come up with a manufactured effect other than the Elven chain listed above as a 2nd example but my imagination seems to have taken a second week of vacation. :-)
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And turning a billow cape into anything else is explicitly against the FAQ (cannot upgrade a named magical item type, the only exception is that if it has a +X in it's name, you can go from +Y to +(Y+1))Billow Capes aren't magic items.As an example that we have all seen, Elven Chain can be enchanted, so there is no doubt in my mind that a billow cape can be enchanted, but what happens to the billow cape's natural effects, who knows.
I'm not sure that El Baron de los Banditos' assumption that the natural effects go away is true. We enchant items all the time that have special properties and most times it doesn't affect those abilities. Dragon hide armor is one example. I wish that I could come up with a manufactured effect other than the Elven chain listed above as a 2nd example but my imagination seems to have taken a second week of vacation. :-)
Yeah, I'm not 100% on any decision either and can see arguments for either side, hence my defaulting to "Expect table variation." One can rarely go wrong with that ideaology if something's text (or relevant text) isn't explicit about what it does.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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And turning a billow cape into anything else is explicitly against the FAQ (cannot upgrade a named magical item type, the only exception is that if it has a +X in it's name, you can go from +Y to +(Y+1))Billow Capes aren't magic items.
Oops, my bad, I'll have to go look at them. I just assumed they were magic.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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An item made from darkleaf cloth weighs half as much as the same item made from normal cured leather, furs, or hides. Items not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of darkleaf cloth. As such padded, leather, studded leather, and hide armor can be made out of darkleaf clothType of Darkleaf Cloth Item / Cost Modifier
Clothing / +500 gp
Light armor / +750 gp
Medium armor / +1,500 gp
Other items / +375 gp/lb.
Actually the upgrade path would be:
MW backpack = 50 gp, 4 lbs
HH = 2000 gp, 5 lbs
so HH adds 1950 gp & +1 lb.
Starting with a Dark Leaf, MW backpack:
DL MW BP = 2 lbs (1/2 of 4 lbs) = 750gp + 50 gp (2lbs * 375 gp + 50 gp for backpack) = 800 gp
+ HH =
DL HH, 2lbs + 1 lb = 3 lbs. 800 gp + 1950 gp = 2750 gp.
Darkleaf handy haversack, 3 lbs, 2750 gp. 750 gp to save 2 lbs.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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As an example that we have all seen, Elven Chain can be enchanted, so there is no doubt in my mind that a billow cape can be enchanted, but what happens to the billow cape's natural effects, who knows.I haven't seen this. Where can I go to see it?
It's given as an example in the "how to upgrade gear in PFS" thread. Along with "celestial armor is magic, so you can't further enchant it."
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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This seems like it would all fall under making custom magic items. Otherwise you might claim you can get a headband of aerial agility and just get a discount by making it out of Griffon Mane since it weighs nothing, so there's no cost for for the special materials. Then you could probably figure out how much the flight abilities actually add and remove 10% of that from the final cost.
That really doesn't seem like it would be acceptable.
Artoo. Items that are 1/2 lb or less count as 1/2 pound for special materials rules. (actually, the specific rule is "items that are negligable weight or less count as 1/2 lb, but I generally assume that also applies to items that are 1/4 lb, because it would get silly otherwise.)
If an item
made of griffon mane is magically given the ability to fly, the
cost to add that specific magical property is reduced by 10%,
Head band of AA - Headband of +2 stat = diff
+2 = 4500 - 4000 = 500 * 10% = 50 gp+4 = 42000 - 16000 = 26000 * 10% = 2600 gp
+6 = 81000 - 36000 = 45000 * 10% = 4500 gp
so it would be a wash for the first level, but a good idea beyond that.
of course, they could also just get winged boots and a headband of intellect +4, get the same benefit, and it would save them 10000 gp.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Since the whole point of *having* dragon hide and griffon mane is to grant discounts to enchanting them, the fact that they are illegal means that either:
1. they are there to be enchanted, and save players money.
2. they are there to waste your money, and the developers are jerks.
and since we know jerks are not allowed in pfs, we know that the developers cannot be jerks. Therefore 2 is false, therefore by the exclusion principle 1 is true. (and the first person to respond to this obviously facile post who uses the word fallacy loses my respect. Doubly so if they use the *wrong* fallacy.)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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RAW there is nothing to stop you from gaining the benefit of a billow cape and a cloak of resistance at the same time. Magic Item slots by definition only relate to magic items. Not so sure where this would be RAI.And turning a billow cape into anything else is explicitly against the FAQ (cannot upgrade a named magical item type, the only exception is that if it has a +X in it's name, you can go from +Y to +(Y+1))Billow Capes aren't magic items.
Does this mean I can wear a HH and a Small size MW backpack? because that would be even more effective than a DL HH.
I think that's what I'll do then. Buy a DL HH, and if the GM objects, I'll just say "That's okay then, since we are using RaW instead of common sense, It will be an normal HH for this game, and I will wear my MW backpack as well and instead of saving 2 lbs, I'll save 3. And instead of costing me 750 gold, it only costs me 50"
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As an example that we have all seen, Elven Chain can be enchanted, so there is no doubt in my mind that a billow cape can be enchanted, but what happens to the billow cape's natural effects, who knows.I haven't seen this. Where can I go to see it?
It was a couple of years ago (2011) and although I didn't find the official response (time issues) it should be around here:
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An item made from darkleaf cloth weighs half as much as the same item made from normal cured leather, furs, or hides. Items not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of darkleaf cloth. As such padded, leather, studded leather, and hide armor can be made out of darkleaf clothType of Darkleaf Cloth Item / Cost Modifier
Clothing / +500 gp
Light armor / +750 gp
Medium armor / +1,500 gp
Other items / +375 gp/lb.Actually the upgrade path would be:
MW backpack = 50 gp, 4 lbs
HH = 2000 gp, 5 lbsso HH adds 1950 gp & +1 lb.
Starting with a Dark Leaf, MW backpack:
DL MW BP = 2 lbs (1/2 of 4 lbs) = 750gp + 50 gp (2lbs * 375 gp + 50 gp for backpack) = 800 gp
+ HH =DL HH, 2lbs + 1 lb = 3 lbs. 800 gp + 1950 gp = 2750 gp.
Darkleaf handy haversack, 3 lbs, 2750 gp. 750 gp to save 2 lbs.
Your pricing is incorrect. You pay the cost for the original weight, not the final weight.
Darkleaf Masterwork backpack: 50+4*375= 50+1500 = 1550, but would be Always Available, so no Fame limit.
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Also, as I think MDT posted in another thread, the "Masterwork Backpack" is not actually a "Masterwork" Backpack. It's a misnomer. Otherwise the weight would be the same as a regular backpack. You'd have to have a Masterwork Masterwork Backpack in order to enchant it.
There does not appear to be an "upgrade path" to the Handy Haversack. If you wanted a Darkleaf version, you'd just have to buy the whole item (3,875gp).
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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nefreet, I would argue that shape wise, Handy Haversack is closer to Masterwork, masterwork backpack than "masterworked" backpack. But since you are probably the one who is going to wind up signing the purchase, I'll go by your ruling till a Dev weighs in.
Anyway, if you want to buy darkleaf based on the whole item, it would still be, 2937. Given the examples of mithral items in the book, it is clear that the price is based on finished weight, not original weight.