During one of the endless caster-martial discussions, the dragon in the antimagic shell was brought up. How do you beat a Great Wyrm dragon in an antimagic shell if the dragon is played tactically well?
antimagic field is a lvl 6 spell that can only be taken off by the lvl 9 mage's disjunction and even if you use that spell, only a 20% chance at lvl 20.
That means the Great Wyrm Red dragon can snatch and grapple with ease with very little chance of anyone able to break out because none of their magic is active while they're doing so.
The only things I can think of without allowing the whole environmental set up like crumbling a cave roof on them is an archer of some kind, ranger set up for dragon hunting, or some barbarian build. Maybe a caster calling up his own powerful creature might do it as well. I believed a called creature cannot be gotten rid of with antimagic shell. But there doesn't seem to be a whole lot capable of challenging a dragon in an antimagic shell.
Have any of you DMs used this on your players? How did they deal with it?
You win automatically, since the dragon collapses under the weight of its own physical impossibility without magic to keep it alive.
More seriously, lessee:
Spell Sundering Barbarian (the answer to all life's problems, really. Strength Surge + Improved/Greater Sunder = Pretty much instawin)
Mage's Disjunction (as you mentioned)
Archery, all around from a dedicated Archer (though the FE: Dragons Ranger is definitely the top dawg there)
Stealth (kinda lolworthy because of those senses, but you never know)
I THINK Planar Bound/Allied creatures and so on would still stick around, so there's that.
Do Su abilities still work in an AMF? If so, Smite like a boss. Bonus points for Smite Arrows.
A good Gunslinger would wreck the poor bastard because they have literally 0 Touch AC.
I was thinking Spell Sunder. Dragon's CMD is 61. Strength Surge would do it. Dragon could recast more than a few times. At that level you can go in and out of rage to Spell Sunder every round. Barbarian probably has the best chance. But the dragon could fight the barbarian using reach. No way to fly inside the antimagic field. Maybe a flying mount with a lance would help quite a bit. If the barbarian was snatched, he would have a problem.
I think an archer would get all his bonuses from magic outside of the field. The arrow wouldn't lose anything but what the ammo had or effects like Flaming. But the full accuracy bonuses from the bow and items would still give the archer all his bonuses.
Mage's Disjunction would have a small chance of working.
I forgot about Gunslinger. I haven't played one of those. They would definitely have a great chance of wrecking a dragon.
I do think the called creatures would work. You would need one that is capable of physically standing up to a dragon without any magical powers mano-a-mano. That 39 AC is pretty rough to hit.
No. Supernatural abilities don't work. Only Extraordinary.
If you play the dragon tactically, it's a very tough fight. Dragons can do a lot and a Flyby grab attack with antimagic field is nasty. Grab a target, take him off, kill a party piece by piece.
Depends on how you adjudicate AMF area: it's 10-foot radius, so can an entire 30-foot space dragon fit inside it? I would say no, but the AMF emanates from the caster's space, so some GMs would allow it.
I was thinking Spell Sunder. Dragon's CMD is 61.
Actually against Spell Sunder the CMD is 15+Caster level not the normal CMD, this would only only be 34 against a Red Dragon Great Wyrm. To totally dispel the effect only a 44 would be needed.
And while Spell Sunder is Su too, one could just sunder the field from the outside.
Depends on how you adjudicate AMF area: it's 10-foot radius, so can an entire 30-foot space dragon fit inside it? I would say no, but the AMF emanates from the caster's space, so some GMs would allow it.
They generally don't specify a 5 foot space when designating caster. So it is 10 foot emanation centered on the caster, by the rules the entire dragon is encased and 10 feet out from him. Otherwise that penalizes larger casters for their size. That is not how the rules work unless you have some indication otherwise.
Actually against Spell Sunder the CMD is 15+Caster level not the normal CMD, this would only only be 34 against a Red Dragon Great Wyrm. To totally dispel the effect only a 44 would be needed.I was thinking Spell Sunder. Dragon's CMD is 61.
That's only for effects not on a caster. An AMF is on a caster.
To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature’s CMD + 5,
That is a CMD of 66 to sunder it. Even with Strength Surge, you would be fairly lucky to dispel it.
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Depends on how you adjudicate AMF area: it's 10-foot radius, so can an entire 30-foot space dragon fit inside it? I would say no, but the AMF emanates from the caster's space, so some GMs would allow it.They generally don't specify a 5 foot space when designating caster. So it is 10 foot emanation centered on the caster, by the rules the entire dragon is encased and 10 feet out from him. Otherwise that penalizes larger casters for their size. That is not how the rules work unless you have some indication otherwise.
Only the rules for range and emanations:
A spell's range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the range entry of the spell description. A spell's range is the maximum distance from you that the spell's effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell's point of origin. If any portion of the spell's area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.
In this case, 10 feet.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
So when casting an AMF, you select one point (grid intersection) centred on you, and it emanates 10 feet from that point for the duration. Since an AMF cannot affect an area more than 10 feet from the point of origin, it can't affect an entire Collosal dragon.
Depends on how you adjudicate AMF area: it's 10-foot radius, so can an entire 30-foot space dragon fit inside it? I would say no, but the AMF emanates from the caster's space, so some GMs would allow it.They generally don't specify a 5 foot space when designating caster. So it is 10 foot emanation centered on the caster, by the rules the entire dragon is encased and 10 feet out from him. Otherwise that penalizes larger casters for their size. That is not how the rules work unless you have some indication otherwise.Only the rules for range and emanations:
A spell's range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the range entry of the spell description. A spell's range is the maximum distance from you that the spell's effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell's point of origin. If any portion of the spell's area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.In this case, 10 feet.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.So when casting an AMF, you select one point (grid intersection) centred on you, and it emanates 10 feet from that point for...
You are discussing a spell that is cast on a point, not a creature, such as a fireball. Creatures may be affected if within the radius. But the point of origin is not a creature.
10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
antimagic field is specifically centered on the creature.
It moves with the creature.
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
The rules for a spell not centered on you do not apply anymore than an aura would.
Depends on how you adjudicate AMF area: it's 10-foot radius, so can an entire 30-foot space dragon fit inside it? I would say no, but the AMF emanates from the caster's space, so some GMs would allow it.They generally don't specify a 5 foot space when designating caster. So it is 10 foot emanation centered on the caster, by the rules the entire dragon is encased and 10 feet out from him. Otherwise that penalizes larger casters for their size. That is not how the rules work unless you have some indication otherwise.Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.That is a CMD of 66 to sunder it. Even with Strength Surge, you would be fairly lucky to dispel it.66 isn't difficult for a 20th level barbarian. Of course, a very old red dragon isn't a level appropriate challenge for the party either.
Barbarian gains: +20 BAB, +20 Strength Surge, +6 reckless abandon, +16 str (18 +5 levels, + 5 inherent, + 6 enhancement, + 8 morale), +7 enhancement = 68. (9 or so less if the barbarian is level 18, depending on the inherent bonus)
As to a caster, summoned creatures wink out in an anti-magic field but called creatures do not. Prismatic sphere gives you a bit of a barrier against the dragon's attacks if your DCs are high enough. Realistically the caster's going to have a caster level of 21 or 22 so you'll have an accordingly higher percentage to take out the antimagic sphere with disjunction. (For what that's worth.)
Archer is probably the best method although I disagree that the bow's magic would effect the arrow once the arrow entered the antimagic field. "Magic ranged weapons bestow this property on their ammunition." However, just keeping their enhancement bonus to strength and dexterity would help.
Barbarian's enhancement bonus would not be active in an antimagic field. So his strength would be 36 for a +12 bonus.
+20 BAB + 9 (Str 28) + +4 (Raging) +1 MW Weapon +6 reckless abandon +20 strength surge =+60 Sunder against a CMD 66
Still need to roll a 16 to dispel.
Where you getting that last +7 enhancement?
Dragon could swoop in, snatch barbarian when not raging, drop him on a mountain top, and hover while hammering him with reach. How do you stop it with an antimagic shell up?
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1.)Hide for about 200 minutes and then have the caster drop one of his magical nukes.
2.)+1 archery
3.)+1 gunslinger
4.)Show him an episode of Barney and watch him commit suicide. :D
5.)Use diplomacy to convince him to refrain from eating you (Sometimes people forget about how skills can resolve encounters).
As to how he is encased in an anti-magic field, You could get it done with arcane archers or you could GM fiat that it just covers the dragon.
That is the rule for emanations. Period. Do you have anywhere in the rules that state a spell can effect more than its area if the target is particularly large, or are you just saying that because "it makes sense"?
So when casting an AMF, you select one point (grid intersection) centred on you, and it emanates 10 feet from that point for the duration. Since an AMF cannot affect an area more than 10 feet from the point of origin, it can't affect an entire Collosal dragon.
You are discussing a spell that is cast on a point, not a creature, such as a fireball.
So if the emanation doesn't extend from the dragon and is a grid point, then explain how it moves with the dragon?
Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
Area
Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
That is where he pulled the above text from without posting that it is for spells that affect an area. Not spells emanating from a creature.
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A great wyrm dragon occupies a 30ft square space. Antimagic Field creates a 10ft radius emanation, centered on the caster.
From Antimagic Field: "Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field."
Grab your magic sword, and hit the dragon where it's sticking out of the little green bubble. Keep hitting it until it stops moving.
Barbarian's enhancement bonus would not be active in an antimagic field. So his strength would be 36 for a +12 bonus.
+20 BAB + 9 (Str 28) + +4 (Raging) +1 MW Weapon +6 reckless abandon +20 strength surge =+60 Sunder against a CMD 66
Still need to roll a 16 to dispel.
Where you getting that last +7 enhancement?
Dragon could swoop in, snatch barbarian when not raging, drop him on a mountain top, and hover while hammering him with reach. How do you stop it with an antimagic shell up?
First off, a barbarian can't use SU abilities within an anti-magic field so there is no point at which he can spell sunder that he wouldn't get his enhancement bonus to strength and enhancement bonus on the weapon.
Second, even if you don't allow him to have his enhancement bonus to strength, his strength is still going to be 36 and giving him a +13 bonus. Not 28 like you have listed.
Edit: I see, you figured rage separately from strength.
Third, where are you getting a CMD of 66, even an ancient wyrm red dragon only has a 61, and as I mentioned a very old (the youngest red dragon capable of casting anti-magic sphere) is significantly lower than that.
Fourth: It is entirely possible that the barbarian, knowing he may have to use spell sunder significant amounts in the future has a +2 to +4 from the sunder feats and another +1 from weapon focus. Those are just situational enough I didn't bother including them in a generic build.
Read spell sunder. It is CMD+5.
The sunder feats would help as would weapon focus.
A great wyrm red dragon can attack at any time. You can't assume ideal conditions. It would swoop out of the sky. They party may or may not be aware that the dragon is encased in an AMF. It swoops down, snatches the barbarian, drags him off within its field, and takes him to a private area to kill him.
Barbarians do have the best chance besides an archer. Though I do believe a caster calling in a titan or another such creature may work.
Range 10 ft.
Effect 10-ft.-radius sphere centered on you
This is from prismatic sphere. I guess antimagic field does not emanate from the dragon. Instead you could pick a grid point on the dragon and the emanation would extend from that point. So a colossal red dragon can't use antimagic field.
Ok. So this whole thread is a moot point. Thanks all for pointing out how antimagic field works.
Now my Oracle of Life would have little to no problem beating the red dragon. She could avoid the AMF on a dragon that size quite easily. AMF isn't even a good tactic for a dragon because it is far too large to be housed in one.
My problem is solved. That's why I started the thread. Good deal. Dragon in an AMF (or any super big creature) is not super hard to beat.
So if the emanation doesn't extend from the dragon and is a grid point, then explain how it moves with the dragon?
The answer to that question is "because that's what the spell text says happens".
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you.
First sentence of the spell description. If the chosen "point" is "top right corner of the dragon", it will always emanate from the top right corner of the dragon, regardless of how the dragon moves.
So if the emanation doesn't extend from the dragon and is a grid point, then explain how it moves with the dragon?The answer to that question is "because that's what the spell text says happens".
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you.First sentence of the spell description. If the chosen "point" is "top right corner of the dragon", it will always emanate from the top right corner of the dragon, regardless of how the dragon moves.
Glad you pointed it out. I confirmed your ruling with prismatic sphere. It does indeed work as you say it works. Which makes it easy to beat on a Great Wyrm Red dragon.
Discussion came up when another poster challenged my Oracle of Life's ability to challenge a Great Wyrm Red Dragon. I see now she would be able to handle it as long as she could get out of range.
A dragon with a claw encased in an antimagic field to snatch things would still be a decent tactic. Though hardly impossible to beat.
Dragon with AMF is right up there in the realms of "do not mess with". Not because it's particularly hard to beat, but because it has the movement to make that AMF utterly screw with one or more characters at once. It will almost always be able to close the range and once it gets a spellcaster inside that field, they're pretty much boned. At that point your best bet is offensive use of Prismatic Wall and Prismatic Sphere (and believe me, that sphere is one of the nastiest attack spells in the game).
Ha. How do I beat a dragon with AMF? With the spells my wizard has prepared... I don't. AMF is rough times.
Depends on how you adjudicate AMF area: it's 10-foot radius, so can an entire 30-foot space dragon fit inside it? I would say no, but the AMF emanates from the caster's space, so some GMs would allow it.
Widen Spell, either with a feat (if the dragon has 9th-level spell slots) or by using a metamagic rod.
Widen Spell would definitely work.
Let my wizard's astral projection get killed (or dispelled by the AMF, if that affects Astral Projection), gay the list levels Restored, then camp out in my private demi-plane accruing on the dragon until it sleeps, and then Magic Jar it. Now I have a cool ultra-powerful body. Our I do something else. The important thing is I was never there in the first place.