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You can price out an Adamantine paper cartridge as I outlined above, and a Cold Iron paper cartridge would cost 24gp (or 12gp for a Gunslinger).
thistledown, as I already stated, since you have to "homebrew" your own pricing for Mithral paper cartridges, and there are no rules written for figuring out their price, they are considered a custom item and thusly not legal for Society play.
Bullets, on the other hand, have a weight. Per 30 bullets. You cannot craft a single Mithral bullet, just as you cannot craft a single Mithral arrow. You must craft Mithral bullets in sets of 30, as I outlined above.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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If you want to go RAW, then the mithral cartridges cost the same as regular ones, since the listed weight is zero. Fine by me and perfectly legal.
Bullets in Ultimate Combat have a group weight of 0.5 lbs per 30. Ultimate Equipment supersedes that, and only says that they weigh 0 lbs each. It has no support for bullets other than singly. So, you must buy them individually.
It has been clarified elsewhere that you must always use the newer book.
However, it doesn't look like either of us is going to convince the other.
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If you want to go RAW, then the mithral cartridges cost the same as regular ones, since the listed weight is zero. Fine by me and perfectly legal.
Weapons with a weight of - count as a 1/2lb for mithral purposes according to the fAQ for Ultimate Combat. A Mithral Paper Cartridge would cost 262gp or 131gp for a character with Gumsmithing.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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If you want to go RAW, then the mithral cartridges cost the same as regular ones, since the listed weight is zero. Fine by me and perfectly legal.Weapons with a weight of - count as a 1/2lb for mithral purposes according to the fAQ for Ultimate Combat. A Mithral Paper Cartridge would cost 262gp or 131gp for a character with Gumsmithing.
That FAQ specifically says "Melee Weapons". Ammunition does not fall under it. But I didn't know about it, so thank you for pointing it out.
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262, or 250? Unlike Adamantine, Mithral doesn't have a "+" before the 250.
It's +500gp per pound on the charts, so 262.
That FAQ specifically says "Melee Weapons". Ammunition does not fall under it. But I didn't know about it, so thank you for pointing it out.If you want to go RAW, then the mithral cartridges cost the same as regular ones, since the listed weight is zero. Fine by me and perfectly legal.Weapons with a weight of - count as a 1/2lb for mithral purposes according to the fAQ for Ultimate Combat. A Mithral Paper Cartridge would cost 262gp or 131gp for a character with Gumsmithing.
It says Melee Weapons because the question that led to FAQ was specifically asking about melee weapons.
Both weapons and ammunition are Other items when paying for Mithral versions. Other items are priced based on weight, and weapons that weigh - are the same weight as ammunition that weigh -. Therefore they would cost the same for the mithral part since the price is based on weight and not type of item.
There is no "subtracting the 1 gp".
A paper cartridge costs 12gp. There is no disputing this.
Adamantine costs "+60 gp per missile". There is no disputing this.
Ergo, an Adamantine paper cartridge costs 72gp. For a Gunslinger, that means it costs 36gp.
Like I said, it's just math. Some are good at it, and some aren't.
I'm looking at the chart in Ultimate Equipment right now. It states Adamantine Bullets are 61gp. Not 1 gp + 60 gp.
There is a difference between not knowing the correct math, and deliberately adding things up a specific way.
I am perfectly aware a normal bullet costs 1 gp. I choose to interpret that you pay the full listed cost of the paper cartridge (12gp) in addition to the full listed cost of the adamantine bullet (61gp). It is the most conservative reading of the FAQ directions.
Figuring, "Well, I don't have to pay for the regular bullet in the paper cartridge, so I save one gold there", but that is an extrapolation of the rules, even a reasonable one, not the actual rules as written.
It's the kind of ruling I might allow in a home game. But this isn't a home game, this is an organized play campaign. As such I almost always take the most conservative approach.
It's a deliberate choice, not a mistake. I might be interpreting the FAQ wrong, and I will freely change my position of someone with rules authority says so, but based on my interpretation, I am NOT getting my math wrong.
-j
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You need to read the section in the Core Book on Adamantine to understand where I am coming from, then.
An Adamantine bullet is indeed "1gp + 60gp", because a regular, lead bullet costs 1gp, and Adamantine ammunition costs +60gp. What you're reading in Ultimate Combat, 61gp, confirms that this is how Adamantine ammunition is priced.
A paper cartridge is 12gp. You simply add the same +60gp you did earlier to this price to get 72gp. No picking apart required. You do not purchase the Adamantine bullet and the cartridge. You purchase the Adamantine cartridge as one item.
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Here is the price list I use for my Gunslinger's ammunition. I keep it on an index card and tally up what I've used each scenario, and then repurchase it. Everything is by the book. No "interpretations" of the rules needed:
Black Powder: 10gp (1gp for a Gunslinger)
Regular Bullet: 1gp (1sp for a...)
Cold Iron Bullet: 2gp (2sp for...)
Adamantine Bullet: 61gp (6gp, 1sp)
30 Mithral Bullets: 280gp (28gp) <=== Turns out I had it on my sheet all along
10 Ghost Salted Bullets: 210gp (201gp)
Paper Cartridge: 12gp (6gp)
Cold Iron Paper Cartridge: 24gp (12gp)
Adamantine Paper Cartridge: 72gp (36gp)
Elysian Bronze Paper Cartridge: 32gp (16gp)
Dry Load Paper Cartridge: 72gp (36gp)
And I suppose I can now add Mithral Paper Cartridge: 262gp (131gp)
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I just wanted to add a couple of lines to this list, and get a confirmation that Alchemical Silver bullets are indeed different from Silver Bullets (which cost 25gp/12.5gp and auto confirm vs Lycanthropes)
Alchemical Silver Bullet: 3gp (3sp)
Alchemical Silver Cartridge: 14gp (7gp)
I also have a question about the pricing of the dry-load cartridges; shouldn't the cost be 42gp (36gp for gunslingers)? The base cost of the cartridge, plus the cost of the enchantment.
My reading of Dry-load also is that it can be added to any cartridge for 30gp, thus allowing for dry load Cold Iron or Adamantine cartridges. The downside to this being that if the cartridges are thus enchanted, they can't be used with Abundant Ammunition.
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Yes, 3sp and 7gp for Alchemical Silver bullets and cartridges, respectively. They do not automatically confirm critical hits on Lycanthropes, but they still have the -1 to damage rolls.
Ah, I must have typed a "7" instead of a "4" when I listed Dry Load prices above. It would indeed be 42gp for a non-Gunslinger, but still just 36gp for Gunslingers. I suppose you could add the enchantment to other cartridges.
I personally think Abundant Ammunition for a Gunslinger is cheesy. I accept that one of the downsides to the class is ammunition costs, and I like keeping track on my Chronicle sheets all the different bullets/cartridges I used during a scenario.
EDIT: Silver bullets, as listed in Ultimate Combat, would only cost 2.5gp for a Gunslinger.
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Nefreet (I know this is a thread necro, but...),
for Dry Load cartridges, I don't think your calculation is correct. Because this is an enchantment, don't you also have to have +1 on the ammunition already?
Also, with PFS, it was my understanding that you had to buy things "as written".
Thus, you'd need to buy 50 +1 Dry Load paper cartriges, at a cost of
6 * 50 + 300 (Masterwork) + 2000 (+1 enchant) + 1500 (dry load) = 4100gp for 50. If you could buy them individually, that'd be, what, 82gp/bullet. I am assuming with this calculation that you can only get the discount on the base cartridges themselves. If you also get the discount on the masterwork component, then that reduces the total to 3950gp (or 79gp each).
This is prohibitively expensive, I would think, but much like many of the other enchantments like this. If I could buy a handful of these cartridges, that'd be fine, but I am not tying up 4100gp for them. They don't even get replaced by Abundant Ammunition!
Guess it is going to be Dry Load Powderhorns, and Vital Strike.
I don't understand why so many things are restricted i n PFS under the logic that "there just aren't many (Gunslingers/Catfolk/Necromancers/etc...) in Golarion". If that's what people are wanting to play, I'd say Golarion is certainly changing!
Now sure, I don't wanna play at a table with 5 Svirfneblin Gunslingers riding undead horses, but a once typed, it DOES sound interesting. I've played plenty of games with unimaginative, min-maxing, named-after-something-on-TV characters, and plenty of deeply thought out interesting and unique characters too. And had fun with both.
At the end of the day, YOU pick the table you play at, or run games at home. Restricting character choices is as much a bane for some players (me) as letting anyone make any ridiculous thing they want. Generally speaking, why is it even IN Pathfinder if not PFS legal anyway?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Generally speaking, why is it even IN Pathfinder if not PFS legal anyway?
Because PFS is just one campaign, in one setting. Pathfinder is an entire game system built to accommodate all kinds of gaming styles, campaigns, and so forth. When you first opened your Core Rulebook and saw the different stat generation methods, did you immediately ask "Why would they make all these different methods if you can only use one, anyway?"
Actually, that's quite a fair answer, Jiggy. I always assumed the stat gen options were GM preference, equalized for community play. Still sucks for those of us with Nagaji ninjas, Dhampyr necromancers, and such with extensive backstories who can't join the Society though.
But I recant, and return you to your regularly scheduled thread. ;)
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I don't understand why so many things are restricted i n PFS under the logic that "there just aren't many (Gunslingers/Catfolk/Necromancers/etc...) in Golarion". If that's what people are wanting to play, I'd say Golarion is certainly changing!
Now sure, I don't wanna play at a table with 5 Svirfneblin Gunslingers riding undead horses, but a once typed, it DOES sound interesting. I've played plenty of games with unimaginative, min-maxing, named-after-something-on-TV characters, and plenty of deeply thought out interesting and unique characters too. And had fun with both.
At the end of the day, YOU pick the table you play at, or run games at home. Restricting character choices is as much a bane for some players (me) as letting anyone make any ridiculous thing they want. Generally speaking, why is it even IN Pathfinder if not PFS legal anyway?
A DM controls the world. They can make magic rare or common. They can do the same with evil, races, and whatever. When you control a table full of the same people every game it is easy to allow exceptions to continue that rarity.
PFS rules are for thousands of people. If everything was allowed then somethings would loose the rarity they are.
Now with guns. I love the idea of making them more rare. Guns are a very high technology weapon when compared to swords. Banning gun using non-gunslinger has a specific purpose. This makes only the people that specializie in guns(gunslingers) able to use them. Thus more rare.
Allowign everything makes the rare and mystical things so common it destroys what makes them unique.
I love the idea of limiting races and classes. I would prefer they limited things more and gave out more boons. But that is me.
Keep in mind this caters to everyone. The people like me that want less and th epeople like you that want more. It is an attmept to balance that.
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Nefreet, for Dry Load cartridges, I don't think your calculation is correct. Because this is an enchantment, don't you also have to have +1 on the ammunition already?
O.O
You... are absolutely correct. Hrmm. I didn't imagine a +30gp cost required a base enchantment, but it doesn't appear to be any different from any other weapon enchantment.
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I love my gunslinger, and I would love to play the banned archetypes, but keeping them rare (banned) is kind of cool in the setting too.
I was accidentally building my gunslinger to become a bit too powerful and had to handicap myself (oops, critical focus line is probably a bad idea). My musket doesn't have reliable on it, and a 1-3 misfire with a 19-20/x4 crit feels reasonable.
It's cool when I'm rolling attacks and then go "hit... hit... MISFIRE!" The table always loves it and hates it. "MISFIRE!"
Subjectivity of personal experience and all that, but from 9 PFS tables on these forums as either a player or GM, with 30-40 unique PCs between them, I've seen exactly 0 gunslingers. No paladins or cavaliers either, come to think of it.
Though, looking over all these posts on ammo costs, I'm getting an idea of why that might be. However quickly ammo may burn through your wallet, all that bookkeeping with costs and weights may spend your patience even faster.
Though, looking over all these posts on ammo costs, I'm getting an idea of why that might be. However quickly ammo may burn through your wallet, all that bookkeeping with costs and weights may spend your patience even faster.
Related thought: Though cost isn't as much of an issue, you still have book-keeping for weight and ammo count for the high rate of fire archer builds, especially if you're needing the various DR bypassing materials. Have you seen many of those around?
I rarely see archers/crossbowmen/sling users tracking ammo on a turn by turn basis the way we see people talk about gunslingers/gun wielding characters needing to track theirs.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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In theory, the Inventory Tracking forms should produce an upswing in the number of people tracking consumables correctly.
While a gunslinger may have to pay more for everyday ammunition (around 1gp per shot using black powder, 6gp if using alchemical cartridges) that's still a lot less than the 15gp/charge of a 1st-level wand, and I'd take a (totally unscientific) guess that there are at least as many accounting errors with wands as there are with firearm ammunition.
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I will again say that I have never seen anything out-damage an optimized archer--not gunslingers, not melee.In an ideal scenario where every shot hits, then yes, the archer out damages the gunslinger. However, when the BBEG has an AC of 27, and a touch of 8, well... there's something to be said for hitting on 2s and 3s.
Let's not forget the fact that a certain gunslinger build will allow them to far outpace archers in damage. Even assuming both builds hit all their shots, the gunslinger will pull way ahead. Yes, even considering the archer having access to gravity bow.
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Nefreet, for Dry Load cartridges, I don't think your calculation is correct. Because this is an enchantment, don't you also have to have +1 on the ammunition already?O.O
You... are absolutely correct. Hrmm. I didn't imagine a +30gp cost required a base enchantment, but it doesn't appear to be any different from any other weapon enchantment.
Well, I was not necessarily as correct as I thought, because on page 141 on Ultimate Combat it refers to +30 per cartridge. We found that reference today while playing No Plunder, No Pay. Could gave really used them.
This sort of seems to be contradicted in Ultimate Equipment, though, which lists it just like a "normal" add on enchantment. So, I really don't know with 100% certainty. I would expect variation unless we get an official ruling on this. May take it to the rules page.
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Though, looking over all these posts on ammo costs, I'm getting an idea of why that might be. However quickly ammo may burn through your wallet, all that bookkeeping with costs and weights may spend your patience even faster.Related thought: Though cost isn't as much of an issue, you still have book-keeping for weight and ammo count for the high rate of fire archer builds, especially if you're needing the various DR bypassing materials. Have you seen many of those around?
I rarely see archers/crossbowmen/sling users tracking ammo on a turn by turn basis the way we see people talk about gunslingers/gun wielding characters needing to track theirs.
My archer hasn't really gotten to the big numbers of arrows fired per round, yet, but I do track each and every arrow, and weapon blanches on them all.
The real way to manage loadouts is with an Efficient Quiver, because then you can have the variety you need, and just dial them up.
With two normal quivers of twenty, and usually five distinct types of arrow (blunt with silver WB, Cold iron, cold iron with Silver WB, cold iron with Adamantine WB, and cold iron with Ghost Touch WB), keeping the counts high enough for a full combat would be a real effort.
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I just use the pepperbox and avoid the issues with the paper cartridges....
You'd think that. But it can be a telling point in a fight. I learn this weekend that Golems and Elepmentals can really make a Pepperbox seem useless. I ran myself dry almost. I spent more coin on ammo in that one scenario than I did in six levels combined.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Ammo Prices:Black Powder: 10gp (1gp for a Gunslinger)
Regular Bullet: 1gp (1sp for a...)
Cold Iron Bullet: 2gp (2sp for...)
Silver Bullet: 25 gp (2gp, 5sp...)
Adamantine Bullet: 61gp (6gp, 1sp)
30 Mithral Bullets: 280gp (28gp)
10 Ghost Salted Bullets: 210gp (201gp)
Alchemical Silver Bullet: 3gp (3sp)Paper Cartridge: 12gp (6gp)
Cold Iron Paper Cartridge: 24gp (12gp)
Adamantine Paper Cartridge: 72gp (36gp)
Elysian Bronze Paper Cartridge: 32gp (16gp)
Alchemical Silver Cartridge: 14gp (7gp)
Mithral Paper Cartridge: 262gp (131gp)Dry Load Paper Cartridge: 42gp (36 gp) ??? This one is questionable, the bullet may need to be +1 to also be dry load.???
So is this the up to date list? Or are there updates.
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This should be the most up-to-date list. I left out Dry Load cartridges, which I believe would cost 4400gp for a lot of 50 (50pcs x 12gp/each + 300gp for MWK + 2000gp for a +1 enhancement + 1500gp for Dry Load), but I'm not sure how to calculate a Gunsmith's cost regarding magical (or even masterwork) ammunition. I doubt anyone would want a set of 50 anyways.
Name of Ammunition / Regular Cost / Gunsmithing Cost
Black Powder / 10gp / 1gp
Regular Bullet / 1gp / 1sp
Cold Iron Bullet / 2gp / 2sp
Silver Bullet / 25gp / 2gp, 5sp
Pitted Bullet / 5gp / 5sp
Adamantine Bullet / 61gp / 6gp, 1sp
Elysian Bronze Bullet / 21gp / 2gp, 1sp
Alchemical Silver Bullet / 3gp / 3sp
30 Mithral Bullets / 280gp / 28gp
10 Ghost Salted Bullets / 210gp / 201gpRegular Paper Cartridge / 12gp / 6gp
Cold Iron Paper Cartridge / 24gp / 12gp
Adamantine Paper Cartridge / 72gp / 36gp
Elysian Bronze Paper Cartridge / 32gp / 16gp
Alchemical Silver Cartridge / 14gp / 7gp
Mithral Paper Cartridge / 262gp / 131gp*
Dragon's Breath Cartridge / 40gp / 20gp
Entangling Shot Cartridge / 40gp / 20gp
Flare Shot Cartridge / 10gp / 5gp* mithral melee weapons with no listed weight are assumed to be 1/2 pound when calculating their cost, but no such rule technically exists for ammunition. For PFS we should probably assume they don't exist. Considering their high price, I doubt many ppl will complain.
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He added the two components together before the discount.
12 + 61 = 73 x 0.5 = 36.5
Arguable, since we apparently can only get the alchemical cartridges as an assembled unit, otherwise we could use weapon blanches on them and that is specifically not allowed.
-j
I was unaware that weapon blanches were specifically not allowed. Where can I find that information?
Mike Brock ruled on this back in March.
More or less the arguements in that thread are that trying to apply Weapon Blanches to alchemial cartridges may cause them to explode, and even if it didn't you would be coating would be on the paper casing, not on the bullet. Lot of possible table variation depending on the GM. They finally came down on the side of "you can't do it".
One comment I never did get to make in that thread - a picture of a paper cartridge with an exposed bullet was posted a couple of times, to argue that you could access the bullet to apply the blanch.
However, the pictured cartridges are NOT that of standard round lead ball paper cartridges, they are of the MiniBall type which in real life was a much later development. Miniball bullets were pointed rather than ball shaped with a hollow in the back. The hollow caused the rear of the bullet to expand slightly when fired, guaranteeing a tighter seal between bullet and barrel which resulted in greater force pushing the bullet. The pointed end was also more aerodynamic. Overall the Miniball had considerably greater range and accuracy than the previous round lead ball, which is why pretty much everyone adopted them.
There is no evidence that the Miniball exists in Pathfinder. Therefore all paper cartridges are of the older round lead ball type and do not have an exposed bullet.
Not that it matters, since Mike already ruled on the subject.
-j
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Mike Brock
I spoke to the design team this morning about this issue. Alchemical cartridges are not meant to have blanch applied to them. I was advised, in a home game, the GM can make whatever call they like. But, for PFS, alchemical cartridges can not receive a blanch.
Thank you for the succinct post big doggie.