Bravery (alternate)


Homebrew and House Rules

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Verdant Wheel

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ciretose is right. fighter is a good fighter. over-all an excellent class. it is easy enough to make 2 skill points work, and the excess of feats leaves room for some interesting concepts. the only weakness is the Bravery mechanic, especially as compared to the paladin auras (which scales to provide bigger bonuses and immunities even to nearby allies - cool!), and, at higher levels, there ought to be an built-in mechanic to allow the fighter to stand up better to supernatural foes. what follows is a proposal that allows the Bravery mechanic to scale, first to psychological effects (fear, etc), then to physical effects (fatigue, nausea, shock), then on to magic effects, and finally to all saving throws. thrown in is a resource mechanic that allows re-rolling of failed saves. this proposal aims to serve as a defensive basis, upon which, at your option, special defensive combat/fighter feats could be created that provide immunities and other resistances. lets make the "brave and stalwart" fighter so:

Bravery (alternate)

Spoiler:

Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against any effect that causes the shaken, frightened, and panicked conditions (including the DC to resist the demoralize action of the Intimidate skill), as well as all other fear and emotion effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

At 6th level, the bravery bonus expands to provide protection against all effects that cause the dazed, exhausted, fatigued, nauseated, paralyzed, sickened, staggered, and stunned conditions, as well as all pain effects.

At 10th level, 3/day, the fighter may re-roll a failed saving throw using his full Fortitude bonus even if the effect does not normally allow a Fortitude save; this ability may be used an additional time per four fighter levels thereafter, to a maximum of 5/day at 18th level.

At 14th level, the bravery bonus expands to provide protection against all magical effects.

At 18th level, the bravery bonus applies to all saving throws.

cheers

Verdant Wheel

take two.
removed resource mechanic, added energy resistance.

Bravery (alternate):

Spoiler:

Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against psychological effects that causes the shaken, frightened, and panicked conditions, including the DC an enemy must beat to demoralize the fighter using the Intimidate skill, and all other fear and emotion effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

At 6th level, the bravery bonus expands to provide protection against physical effects that cause the dazed, disabled, exhausted, fatigued, nauseated, paralyzed, sickened, staggered, and stunned conditions, as well as all pain effects.

At 10th level, the bravery bonus expands to provide protection against energy effects with the acid, cold, fire, lightning, and sonic descriptors.

At 14th level, the bravery bonus expands to provide protection against all magical and supernatural effects.

At 18th level, the bravery bonus applies to all saving throws.


I just give my figthers 3 good saves and think of the fatherland.
But i may try this out instead.
Edit: when i gm not as a player unless the GM telts me to.

Verdant Wheel

take three: aka 'Fort-substitution'

allow the Fortitude save, the fighter's only good save, to broaden it's scope of coverage over the other two weaker saves

Bravery (alternate work-in-prog):

Spoiler:

Starting at 2nd level, the battle-hardened fighter learns to exert limited control over his nervous system fight or flight responses. As an immediate action, the fighter may substitute his Fortitude save bonus on saving throws against psychological effects that causes the shaken, frightened, and panicked conditions, or against any other fear and emotion effects.

(need ideas for 6th, 10th, 14th...)

At 18th level, the fighter may substitute his Fortitude bonus for any saving throw as a free action.


...

thoughts?

Verdant Wheel

ok,
next evolution.
using a Grit mechanic but not basing it on an ability score.

Bravery (Alternate 2):

Spoiler:

At 2nd level, a fighter gains a bravery pool which he may use to shrug of fear and other debilitating physical and magical effects. This pool starts out with a capacity of 1 point maximum. For every four additional fighter levels he attains, the pool capacity grows by another 1 point, until at 18th level the fighter may hold up to 5 points in his bravery pool. A fighter can replenish his bravery pool by getting a full 8 hours of rest.

Bravery points may also be recovered in the following ways:

*Whenever the fighter suffers a critical hit and is still standing, he recovers 1 point of bravery.

*Whenever the fighter rolls a natural 20 on a fortitude save, he recovers 1 point of bravery.

*Whenever the fighter exhibits true bravery by risking his life in an act of daring and survives, he recovers 1 point of bravery.

Bravery points may be used in the following ways:

At 2nd level, so long as the fighter retains at least 1 point of bravery, all saving throws against fear effects may automatically be resisted using his fortitude saving throw. Further, the fighter may roll a fortitude saving throw in place of any reflex or will saving throw by expending 1 point of bravery as an immediate action. The consequences for passing or failing the substituted save remain unchanged. He must declare he is doing so before he makes the roll.

At 6th level, the fighter may suppress certain debilitating conditions for 1 round by expending 1 point of bravery as a swift action. The following conditions may be suppressed: exhausted, fatigued, shaken, or sickened.

At 10th level, so long as the fighter retains at least 1 point of bravery, he is immune to all fear effects. Further, the list of conditions he may now suppress expands to include: dazed, nauseated, staggered, and stunned. He may take this action on his turn even if the condition would normally prevent him from taking any action.

At 14th level, when the fighter expends a bravery point to suppress a condition, he may instead negate the condition altogether by expending an additional point of bravery (so 2 bravery points total). A fighter who negates exhaustion in this way becomes fatigued instead; a fighter who negates nausea in this way becomes sickened instead.

At 18th level, when the fighter expends a bravery point to substitute his fortitude save bonus for another saving throw, he may expend additional bravery points to re-roll the saving throw die. For each additional point he spends, he may attempt one re-roll. He may only attempt a re-roll before he knows the results of the saving throw, and he is bound to the results of the re-roll unless he continues to spend bravery points in this fashion.


...

Fighter Table (illustrative)

Spoiler:

1 - Bonus Feats
2 - Bonus Feat, Bravery (1 pt)
3 - Armor Training I
4 - Bonus Feat
5 - Weapon Training I
6 - Bonus Feat, Bravery (2 pts)
7 - Armor Training II
8 - Bonus Feat
9 - Weapon Training II
10- Bonus Feat, Bravery (3 pts)
11- Armor Training III
12- Bonus Feat
13- Weapon Training III
14- Bonus Feat, Bravery (4 pts)
15- Armor Training IV
16- Bonus Feat
17- Weapon Training IV
18- Bonus Feat, Bravery (5 pts)
19- Armor Mastery
20- Bonus Feat, Weapon Mastery

...

thoughts?

Verdant Wheel

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Had an idea today to keep it simple(r), yet still be an obvious upgrade, in-theme, and balanced with the action economy:

Bravery (alternate 3):

Spoiler:

At 2nd level, a fighter learns to subconsciously control his fight or flight response. All saving throws he makes against fear effects are hereafter rolled using his total Fortitude save bonus (in place of his Will save bonus).

In addition, his fearlessness is preternatural. As an immediate action, the fighter may roll a single saving throw adding a +1 morale bonus to the roll. This bonus increases by +1 every four fighter levels after 2nd, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. He must declare that he is using this ability before he rolls the die.

...

do folks prefer the simpler version or the more complicated one?

Verdant Wheel

ok.

i had an idea about a way to pseudo-model a Grit resource without actually using the pool mechanic. specifically, the passive aspect and the concept of forfeiture (think "so long as you retain 1 point in your pool...") rooted in the action economy.

essentially, i want the forfeiture to matter, so i'm going to propose that Bravery be a flat bonus to all saves (+1/2/3/4/5 at 2nd/6th/10th/14th/18th) but that can be forfeited for 1 round to allow the fighter to perform special actions (which will 'unlock' at 6th/10th/14th/18th) which justify the tradeoff.

seeking your feedback! especially in the creating/selecting/ordering of the special actions. heregoes:

Bravery (alternate 4):

Spoiler:

At 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 morale bonus to all saving throws. This bonus increases by +1 every four fighter levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. As the fighter gains levels, he may forfeit this bonus for 1 round to perform special actions called 'stunts' - stunts are activated as a swift action unless otherwise noted.

A 6th level fighter may forfeit his bravery bonus to temporarily suppress the effects of lesser conditions which afflict him: for 1 round he is unnaffected by the exhausted, fatigued, shaken, and sickened conditions. He must wait 1 round before repeating this stunt.

A 10th level fighter may forfeit his bravery bonus to perform a full attack and move his base speed in the same round. He must wait 1 round before repeating this stunt.

A 14th level fighter may forfeit his bravery bonus to temporarily suppress the effects of more severe conditions which afflict him: for 1 round he is unnaffected by the dazed, disabled, frightened, nauseated, panicked, staggered, and stunned conditions. He must wait 1 round before repeating this stunt.

An 18th level fighter may forfeit his bravery bonus to automatically succeed on a single saving throw. This stunt is activated as an immediate action, and the fighter must declare he is doing so instead of rolling dice.


...

thoughts?


I think alternate 4 loses some flavor, since it applies to *all* saves, and the level-connected abilities (is there a general term or phrase for the additional 6th/10th/14th/18th level abilities?) help across the board. You did characterize the initial and scaling bonus to saves as a "morale" bonus, which somehow fits with my sense of the class, but recognizing this alternate applies to all sorts of perils leads to the conclusion that the name "Bravery" name doesn't fit for the proposed ability: for example, improving a reflex save against some affect seems more about agility than bravery; likewise ability to resist a charm or dominate is also independent of individual courage.

Bravery in our world is about action in the face of fear. Or maybe, seeming absence of fear. I endorse strengthening the Bravery ability in the Pathfinder Fighter class, but I'm reluctant to support diluting its flavor from the start in the name of strengthening the class. I also believe Fighters do deserve a special specific resistance to fear effects.

Verdant Wheel

Orich Starkhart,

concerning the 'fluff' of Bravery (version 4), i mostly disagree. two examples: against dragon's breath, a 'reflex' save, the brave fighter lifts his shield up and presses on against the heat. against domination, the brave fighter's singularity of purpose proves to be a form of mental armor. given the structure of rules as rules, it's easy to fall into being 'mechanical' in our thinking about them. but i see less of a disconnect between being 'brave' and only having that represent the ability to stave off the 'fear' descriptor. but it is also true my interpretation is fueled by my desire to strengthen the bravery mechanic significantly.

but i take you point. it might be clever to restore an explicit advantage over fear effects independent of the flat bonus.

also, any positive feedback (suggestions) given with negative feedback (critique) is also appreciated.

for example, looking back over version 4, i am reconsidering the condition-removal stunts. thinking instead: 10th (full attack + move), 14th (negate crit), 18th (auto-save). i am shuffling ideas for the 6th level stunt...

...or on the concept of forfeiture itself?


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Rainzax -
Thoughts on your examples for alternate Bravery helping all saves:

  • for the example reflex case, the reflex save against Dragon's breath allows the character to take half damage. Your "pressing on against the heat" need not depend upon a successful save reducing damage; the fighter's relatively large hit point reservoir (compared to non-martial classes) already reflects his ability to "press on".
  • your description of Bravery providing mental armor suggests that classes with the Bravery ability should have "good" will saves. I believe that the Will save should be better for Fighter, and probably Samurai and Cavalier than for, say, Rogues and Alchemists, but not due to innate bravery, rather because I believe mental discipline is an element of and a consequence of successful rigorous military training.

Question about alternate 3 - that single save to which the fighter can choose to apply a morale bonus - is that *any* save? and is this a per encounter, hour, day, ability?

I appreciate the simplicity of alternative 3, and its directness - the character gets the "good" save progression against fear effects for its levels of Fighter.

regarding alternative 2 - I find the pool mechanic satisfying. I'd suggest recovering a point of bravery for any natural 20 on a save, not only Fortitude ones. I like the pool rather better than the bonus forfeiture of alternative 4. Not sure why - maybe it seems less meta-gamey?

You asked specifically for preferences between 2 and 3, and that I'm on the fence about - I like each for different reasons.

Verdant Wheel

Orich Starkhart,

first off thanks for the thoughtful feedback. my opinions about how i could see Bravery as providing a bonus to all saves, both cinematically and mechanically, were more or less spurred by this thread.

viz your question about alternate 3: yes. to any save. and yes, i might restore the 'fear good save' bit in the final version, whatever that turns out to be in this thread.

Pools:
i am on the fence about whether to use a pool (i am a pool fan) for improving the Bravery ability. on the one hand, there is the line of thinking that the fighter oughtn't have any class abilities based on a finite resource (aside from action economy, of course), and on the other, the pool mechanic is an elegant mechanic that works for many classes. so i am divided about it.

the forfeiture mechanic functions similarly to a 1-point pool which renews every round - an on/off switch, or 'chip' - hence obviating the need to use arithmetic to track the resource. thus i feel it might serve as a nice middle ground. and equally as meta-gamey as a 'real' pool.


I like Alternate 2, but it might be overly long. I also like Alternate 3 for it's brevity, but I don't understand the second part of it.


My Bravery rule is simply +1 per level against all Fear effects. Yes, that's +20 at 20th level, but it's still less than a 3rd level paladin.

Some sort of Grit mechanic for other things might be worthwhile, but I'd separate them completely.


The factors affecting players' decisions will differ between the daily pool and pre-round forfeiture mechanic. I imagine with a pool the character's decision-making is around whether to risk using the resource now or save it for possible future need, akin to caster's decisions about using their spells, even with the potential of some replenishment without rest. The forfeiture mechanic makes for decision-making purely with respect to the current encounter, round-by-round. I imagine that for many possible encounters the player may deem the bonus safely expendable.

Verdant Wheel

the main difference between version 3 (immediate action) and version 4 (forfeiture) is subtle. they both intend to work into the action economy as a structural parameter.

to those confused about the 'limit' of version 3, by virtue of it being an immediate action, it is usable once per round, albeit crowded in with any other immediate or swift actions, per the standard rules governing those action types. so, a fighter's Bravery can be 'broken' with a volley of save-inducing attacks.

version 4, by contrast, is 'always on' unless the fighter chooses to lower it. thus, he always has the option to weather an incoming volley of save-inducing attacks, or, to forfeit the additional protection in lieu of performing a 'stunt'.

so, my question is, between the two, which version do you think is most suitable/playable/fun/whatever?


I prefer v3. Honestly, its better than CRB Bravery with only the first paragraph. The second one is a little boost, sure, but unnecessary I think.

Verdant Wheel

Ok,
been thinking about immediate actions a lot. the Borrowing Against Future Actions (BAFA) concept in particular. so, what about this?

version 5:

Bravery (alternate 5):

Spoiler:

A 2nd level fighter can shrug off effects that would daunt lesser mortals. As an immediate action, he may re-roll a failed saving throw, taking a +1 bonus to the re-roll. Whether or not the re-rolled save succeeds, he may may not take a move action or a full-round action the following round.

At 6th level, and again every four fighter levels, he gains an additional +1 bonus to the re-roll, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level.

thoughts?


What if, instead of losing an action in the next round, the Bravery "bonus" was simply the number of times per day the ability can be used?

Verdant Wheel

just trying to work around the X/day paradigm of resource management specifically

currently exploring action economy as opportunity cost

Verdant Wheel

coat-tailing on the upsurge in activity concerning the non-unchained fighter, another idea

Bravery (alternate 6):

Spoiler:

A 2nd level fighter can overcome fear and other physiological stresses that would daunt a lesser man. He is hereafter considered immune to the shakened condition. As an immediate action, the fighter may re-roll a failed will save made against an effect from an opponent he is aware of. He gains a +1 morale bonus to this re-roll. If he succeeds, he is released from any of the effects of the original failed save, and becomes staggered for 1 round instead. This is an extraordinary ability. The bonus rises by +1 every four fighter levels afterwards, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. Whether or not he succeeds, he must wait 24 hours before using this ability to against the same foe.

At 6th level, the fighter becomes immune to the frightened and fatigued conditions.

At 10th level, he becomes immune to all fear and exhaustion effects.

i am a proponent of the 1/foe/day over the X/day mechanic as a 'thematic' yet 'balanced' way to give a 'mundane' class a cool extraordinary ability.

Verdant Wheel

Bravery as Grit. too good?

Bravery (grit version):

Spoiler:

A 2nd level fighter gains a Bravery pool with a number of points equal to his Constitution bonus. These points may go up or down throughout the day, never exceeding his Constitution bonus, and replenish fully after 8 hours of rest.

Whenever the fighter survives a critical hit, rolls a natural 20 on a saving throw, or fells a foe of equal or greater hit dice, he regains one point of bravery. So long as he retains at least one point of bravery, he may roll his fortitude save in place of his will save against fear effects, and always reduces the fear effect by one step.

By expending 1 point of bravery as a swift or immediate action, the fighter may roll twice before making a saving throw, re-roll a damage roll, or make a full-attack in addition to moving his full speed that round. These are extraordinary abilities.


rainzax wrote:
Whenever the fighter survives a critical hit, rolls a natural 20 on a saving throw,

I started (and abandoned) a fighter re-write that included a Grit mechanic with these very same conditions for recovering points! I want my fighters to be able to be natural survivors, the come-back kings. I think I had it replace Armor Training though.

But yes, that version is probably too good.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

My take on Bravery:

Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +2 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +2 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

Once per day, a fighter may steel himself against the threat of a single foe. As a swift action, he designates one target within sight and applies his bravery bonus on all saves against that target's abilities. This effect lasts until the foe is either dead or unconscious or when the fighter rests and regains use of this ability.

At 6th level and ever four levels after, a fighter may use this ability an additional time per day up to a maximum of five times per day at 18th level.


Have you considered simply switching Bravery out for the Samurai Resolve class feature?

Samurai Resolve

I know it isn't as tailored as your ideas, but I find it is easier to get "buy in" from others in your group if you keep modifications simple and the changes have a precedent in published material.

Verdant Wheel

Douglas Mawhinney, Cyrad,
I guess the appeal of Grit, as opposed to other resource pools/rounds/per-days, is that it self-recharges, trading off 'going out completely' for being somewhat 'intermittent.' i'd like to continue that mechanical theme in making Bravery more or a useful class feature - something that never goes out completely. you will notice all 7 of my bravery ideas above (except the 1st one) stick to that design precept.

Here is a model that starts in CRB, but whose domain expands. i'm not entirely happy with the progression, but you get the point.

Bravery (version 8):

Spoiler:

Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

At 6th level, the bonus expands to all Will saves against mind-affecting effects.

At 10th level, the bonus expands to all Will saves.

At 14th level, the bonus expands to all saving throws against magical effects.

At 18th level, the bonus expands to all saving throws.


Yeah, I think ending up with a bonus to all magic effects, and then all saves is going overboard. At some point you've left the boundaries of "bravery" and gone to another place.

In my mind, the failures of Bravery comes down to a couple of things.

1) The game has some spells and monster auras that cause fear, but its generally not a prevalent aspect of the game. Players don't like to lose control of their characters, so like domination a GM is going to use it sparingly. Also, there is no morale mechanic in the game. A combatant's fight-or-flight decision is completely in the hands of the player or GM controlling it.

2) Does the Bravery class feature make the fighter more brave than a character with a good Will save progression and a positive Wisdom modifier? I would say no. At 6th level, a good base save yield you +5, plus Wisdom. A poor base save plus Bravery yields you +4, plus Wisdom.

3) In conclusion, I like the idea of Bravery having a little pool of points, or helping with additional types of saves, but if one was to stick to the core theme of bravery, a simple solution that would help the fighter be more brave than his party member would be to change the progression to 1/2 fighter level, instead of every four levels. The other option is to not call it something other than Bravery, and do something else with it.

Verdant Wheel

ok.

going along with the grit version of bravery above, what if the capacity of the pool was strictly controlled by level rather than by ability score?
1 point max at 2nd level, 2pts@6th, 3pts@10th, 4pts@14th, 5pts@18th.

also, the three recovery conditions will now be:
*sustaining a critical hit
*rolling a natural 20 on a saving throw
*whenever one of his enemies fells one of his allies

and, the 1pt benefits will now be:
*re-rolling a damage roll
*moving and making a full attack
*layering a maneuver on top off an attack roll

then, does that help to balance out the cool abilities above?


rainzax wrote:

ok.

1 point max at 2nd level, 2pts@6th, 3pts@10th, 4pts@14th, 5pts@18th.

I like it.

rainzax wrote:
*whenever one of his enemies fells one of his allies

This might be tricky, so your wording will have to be pretty clear. This one also is thematically different from the other two. Those are "survivor", this one is "protector". Not that its bad, they're just different. I'm also torn because even though I prefer the survivor theme, the protector theme is what fits better with "bravery".

rainzax wrote:


and, the 1pt benefits will now be:
*re-rolling a damage roll
*moving and making a full attack
*layering a maneuver on top off an attack roll

None of these thematically match bravery.

These are great ideas, but I'm not sure they fit under the bravery umbrella.

Verdant Wheel

ok.
weird idea coming.
see "Brave and Stalwart" (in the fighter's 'short' description).
what if the pool was more interactive on an individual level.
like, instead of generically replenishing points which may be freely spent,
what if the fighter could accrue points against a specific body of enemies based on their actions?

for example,
the fighter starts with 0 points in his pool.
anytime he gains a point, he may keep it so long as an enemy who triggered him (see below) lives, or until it is spent.
subject, of course, to his maximum (described above; 1-5)

anytime one of his allies fails a saving throw, sustains a critical hit, or is reduced to 0 HP by an enemy, the fighter recovers one point. this is the trigger. he may keep the point until he uses it against a triggering enemy, to do something like i outlined above.

is this 'bravery'?

(brainstorm)


I will think on this. In the meantime, you should rename and write up your last set of ideas.


I like this idea of changing Bravery into something similar like Grit! I think it makes the Fighter a bit more dynamic in gameplay. And I think would call his 'deeds' as "Stunts".

Here are some suggestions that came to me as I considered the mechanic (containing some of the ideas already put forth above):
Bravery points equal to 3 + Con

Bravery points recovered when:
* Receiving a critical hit and remain standing
* Inflicting a critical hit
* Downing an enemy
* Reckless action (GM's discretion)

Stunts:
* 1 point to remove the following conditions: entangled, fascinated, frightened, shaken, sickened
* 2 points to remove the following conditions: dazed, cowering, nauseated, panicked, stunned
* 1 point to temporarily not be affected by the following conditions for 1 round: exhausted, fatigued, paralyzed, staggered, stunned
* for every point of Bravery spent, turn 10 points of lethal damage into nonlethal
* 1 point to perform a combat maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity
* 1 point to make a full jump without a running start
* 1 point to be able to climb at full speed without penalty for 1 round
* 2 points to make a charge without provoking attacks of opportunity

That's all I got for now.


Why 3 + Con instead of just Con, since we're talking "grit". Also, and this is going to be debatable, at what point does a replacement for bravery become too good? At that point, should it still replace bravery, or another class feature? At what point do the class feature's capabilities stop reflecting the thematic intent of "bravery"?

I ask, because (I believe) that Rainzax is aiming to implement something that will occur at the same fighter levels as bravery (2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th & 18th), which I am also on board with. What you are offering is a more robust class feature.

Verdant Wheel

i personally want it all. which means i want a cool class feature for the fighter called Bravery that mechanically incentivizes 'bravery' as a narrative concept. i also want it to 'get better' at 2/6/10/14/18 - possibly using the numbers +1/+2/+3/+4/+5. what more, i want a unique mechanic. so, while i think the Samurai's Resolve ability would be easy to import, and would so totally work, i would rather leave that with the Samurai and use our creativity to come up with another cool and different class feature.

hence this thread.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Synergize it with Iron Will.

Iron Will: +2 to your Will Save. If you have Bravery, this number increases by the amount of your Bravery.

Bing!

==Aelryinth


Ah, yeah! I had forgotten that Grit is just equal to ability modifier (minimum 1). I had it in my head that it was like all the other abilities that were 3 + ability modifier.

If we make it similar to Grit, then what happens at levels 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th & 18th are the "stunts" that become available. So a handful of simple, low-powered stunts at 2nd level, with more unlocking as the fighter progresses, where at 18th level, the fighter has access to a couple of stunts that would make Captain America impressed.

I like what rainzax is striving for, making the narrative concept of 'bravery' more useful and enticing. In my mind, that means giving the fighter options to either do some cool, risky action moves without the actual risks srewing him over, or overcoming difficulties with their willpower.

Verdant Wheel

Kain Gallant,

a first challenge to the grit idea is to discourage 'dipping'. 2-level fighter dip is pretty standard fare, and as Bravery comes online then, an idea on this thread is to restrict the number of grit points, rather than by ability score (though, admittedly, if we were going to choose one, CON would likely be the best choice), by level, incentivizing class loyalty.

Spoiler:

01- Bonus Feats
02- Bonus Feat, Bravery (1 pt)
03- Armor Training
04- Bonus Feat
05- Weapon Training
06- Bonus Feat, Bravery (2 pts)...

a second challenge is coming up with useful, generic abilities that would be useful to every flavor of fighter. one of the reasons grit is viable on a gunslinger is that they are pretty narrowly focused. this is why above i proposed re-rolling a damage roll. i haven't seen it anywhere else, and all fighters could use it, whether S&B, TWF, 2-H, Archer, what-have-you.

a third challenge is coming up with a recovery mechanic. i am personally not a fan of 'upon scoring a crit' because simply porting that over from the gunslinger poses the dilemma that all guns crit on a 20 only (albiet with a high multiplier) - anything with an expanded range will literally happen twice or thrice as often - more with iterative attacks. so, it's important to exercise caution here.

the final challenge is designing your mechanic in such a way that it interacts with itself to produce a gameplay that stays within the theme of 'bravery' - this is possibly the trickiest part because it takes the entire system into account.

so yeah, just sharing some things that i keep in mind vis 'bravery as grit' idea.

ps. this thread might be good to mine 'heroic' ideas from.


Saw a campaign once where Bravery increased any Morale bonuses by 1. Seemed to work pretty well.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Aaaaaand now the Advanced Class Guide drives home the fact that FIghters can't have Nice Things.

Divine Protection: Need to cast level 2 Divine Spells, have domains/mysteries/whatever.
Effect: +Cha to saves, just like a paladin. If you have DIvine Grace already, 'only' +1 to all saves.

Soooo....

That's like saying:
Martial Defense: Armor Training +1, 4 Combat Feats
Effect: You have all Good Saves. Add your Bravery bonus to all saves against Magic.

Pfeh.

==Aelryinth

Verdant Wheel

the fighter can have nice things. they will just live here under homebrew...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Happily, the feat was banned from PFS before it was even playable. Which makes a great case for simply banning it entirely.

I can't believe some of these people making up feats, you know?

==Aelryinth

Verdant Wheel

and moving along.
thanks Wiggz for the morale idea.

Bravery (version 9):

Spoiler:

By second level, a fighter has learned to stare death in the face. He is never frightened nor panicked. Whenever one of his allies within 30 feet (including himself) sustains a critical hit or fails a saving throw, he gains a +1 morale bonus to all saving throws for 1 minute. At 6th level, and again every four fighter levels, this morale bonus increases by 1.


I like the basic intent of v9, that his morale improves when his allies need him.

However, immunity to those two conditions seems pretty potent for 2nd level IMO and it seems odd that he can still be shaken. Perhaps a mechanic at level X where fear conditions go down a step? As for the second part (the level based part), with the number of saves and crits will eventually be happening every other round will IMO turn it into basically a constant bonus to all saves.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

A paladin is immune to all fear at level 2, and gets a strong will save. The fear immunity is not 'too strong'.

I find it counter-intuitive that the worse the party is doing, the better the fighter is doing. It's like he wants to get the rest of the party beat to crap so he can be awesome...not really the intent one is looking for.

==Aelryinth


If its based on your party suffering damage, then it should function whenever they take damage. Unless you want bravery to be worse than it is in the core.


Paladin gets it at level 3, but in the paladin vein, you have given me a thought.

Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against fear and the DC when another creature uses the Intimidate skill against the fighter increases by 4. This bonus and increase to DC go up by 1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

Still not as good as the paladin ability, but this deviates from rainzax's tendency thus far to keep Bravery's numeric bonus identical to it's current form.

Verdant Wheel

shaken is no big deal. -2 who cares. frightened/panicked creatures have to turn tail and run like little b*****s.

Aelryinth you have an interesting spin on it. here's mine: one of the greatest things about Michael Jordan was not only that he was consistent, but that he was consistent under pressure. like, when the game was tied to within a few points and the clock was running out - his shot didn't falter at times like these. that is why he is a sports hero. version 9 fighter is harder to take down in such a circumstance too. he is easier to take by surprise, or to try to take out first, but once the fight could take a potential swing for the worse (failed save, lucky crit), BAM his saves come online, shoring up his greatest weakness.

thus i don't think it should be based 'in damage,' as Trogdar suggests. the fighter can handle damage. its the other crap that hurts.

if anybody is dead set on keeping it as 'vs fear only' check out Mudfoot's proposal above.


I wasn't stating that it should be based off of damage, just that basing it off your team taking critical hits would make it worse than the original bravery.

Verdant Wheel

how do you figure?


It would be an infrequent boon at the best of times. At least the current iteration is always on. If you want to improve the bravery class feature, it should actually get better...

Verdant Wheel

before minding that these proposals are mere conjecture, i almost leapt to retort "i consider that a feature, not a bug" but instead i'll present you with my challenge, if you are game. something like "how can a scaling bonus to all saves be not only 'balanced' but also thematically 'brave'?"

(aside from doing this)

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