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I like the Grit mechanic and the Gunslinger stunts. I'm curious if the same mechanic could be ported over to the Fighter to allow for combat tricks that normally would be spent on overly specific feats. So a grit fighter could do stunts like instant re-ready weapons, confirm crits w/out rolling, etc by burning grit. I'd love for a full on Pulp alt Fighter that works like this.
Has this been experimented with?
I've been kicking around a mix of feats that a Fighter might have. But they break down to 3 primary groups.
Combat Exploits - Remove dodge/dex from foes, grant cover for allies, force repositing, free bullrush after charge, add stun/bleed/etc to attack, use a weapon 1-2 times outside your size category for a short period with no penality, etc.
Feats of Strength/Dex - Running leap (sans running), climb at full move, ignore encumberance for short times, grant yourself DR, grant yourself temp hitpoints, etc.
And finally pulp "luck" - Ignore bad saves for short while, clear charms/stun/etc, get a clue help, use skills you don't have in emergencies, use stat bonuses on rolls they normally wouldn't apply (Str and Wis for Will saves from true warrior's grit?), etc.
Have 3 'trees' the Gritty Fighter can develop into more or less. Mix and match but allow them to specialize.
Hell, I might cook it up as an archtype removing some of the bonus feats and fighter 'abilities' as grit based swap outs. Either take what a fighter gets that level or pick up more grit tricks. Like Quingong in Fighter terms.
One thing. The combat tree. I want to get away from generic mechanical stuff. In keeping with the Gritty Fighter being more Pulp inspired I'd like his stunts to be more Jackie Chan impromtu weirdness. Disrupt foes when they miss him, Turn around situations, etc. With out dipping into the Mythic gimmick of just being better.
The gunslingers utility shot stunts are a great inspiration. I'd love cool stuff like throwing back thrown weapons. Turning Sunders into Disarms (on him). Causing trip zones because he's 'all over the place'. Ignore DR but only do subdual.
The more I think about it the Gritty Fighter needs to operate under Pulp and Movie logic.
Don't make it all flashy Jackie. I mean, imagine a dwarf who spends a little Grit to negate a critical hit, then another grit to STARE THE HECK out of the poor orc who made it- who would then flee crying to his orc-mother.
Or a halfling fighter who spend a grit to spit in a troll's eye with dead-on aim, before stabbing him in the codpiece.
Stuff like that could be cool, too, and it would give the fighter a lot more things to do than full attack.
I kinda get both angles - the Jackie Chan/martial arts crazy stunts is cool, but I also dig Raiderrpg's concepts - staring down foes after shrugging off big damage and unerring shots a la gunslinger are cool. If you had plenty of options to create the style you wanted, that would be cool.
How about "Pulp Fighter"? Gritty Fighter is still cool...
The trick is a lot of what Raider is saying might fit in the Feats catagory. But that's a good point. Grit tricks could be combat and non based on things like showiness, utility, and effect.
So ya. Stunts. Combat Stunts, Ability Stunts, and Luck Stunts. Sound good as an outline? I'll try to mix in crazy and non crazy. You know there could be a sub-archtype of the chaotic combat style vs the gritty pulp style. But I'll make it a mix now and develop more refined stuff later. I'll get some proto stunts up tonight and a rough outline on how to archtype changes the fighter.
As for what to call the ..you know this is sounding more like a new sub class. We'll see. Ahem. But what to call it? Pulp Fighter? Ehhhh...maybe.
Dardevil is taken by the bard. Hmmm. Cliffhanger? No.
Man of Action? Sexist. Dr. Jones? Stuntmaster?
Here's some ideas:
Surprise Move: Spend 1 grit point to use a feat you do not have for 1 round. You must meet all the normal prerequisites for the feat.
Improved Suprise Move: Spend 2 grit points to use a feat you do not have for 1 round. You do not need to meet the feat's prerequisites. You must have the Surprise Move deed to select this deed.
Surprise Technique: Spend 2 grit points to use a feat you do not have until the end of the encounter. You must meet all the normal prerequisites for the feat. You must have the Surprise Move deed to select this deed.
Improved Surprise Technique: Spend 3 grit points to use a feat you do not have until the end of the encounter. You do not need to meet the feat's prerequisites. You must have the Surprise Technique and Improved Surprise Move deeds to select this deed.
This would grant fighters some flexibility with regards to feat selection. Maybe you don't need Throw Anything every fight, but once or twice in your career you might want to huck a greataxe at something. Or maybe you blow all your grit points to disarm your enemy's weapon and then wield it TWF against him even if you aren't normally a TWF. You could even blow a grit point to snag Imp Init or Quick Draw when it really counts.
Actually, you could replace all the fighter's bonus feats with these deeds, staggered over several even-numbered levels, with some higher-level versions later on. I'd consider the gain in flexibility to offset the loss of semi-permanent bonus feats.
or maybe every morning, after 8 hours of rest, the fighter may engage in 15-45 minutes of exercises to permanently exchange a single 'swap feat' he has for another for which he qualifies.
'swap feats' are gained at 2/6/10/14/18.
stunts (as deeds) at 1/3/7/11/15/19
(this leaves levels 4/8/12/16/20 empty - maybe a +1 to CMB/D per?)
as in having an untrained yet uncanny knack for getting the upper hand in a fight, this warrior is self taught, and in simply witnessing another 'style' or 'martial art', can imitate, innovate, and work about a counter - a true fighting impresario. generally loners, these men and women wander the continent in search of a worthy challenge or a just cause. Inasmuch, they tend to pick up skills that allow them to live independent lifestyles, and are slow to make new friends. Nevertheless, many born fighters come to see themselves as protectors, and are known to maintain strong bonds with the few friends they do make, and thus often take up adventuring in the course of protecting their chosen companions - and to satiate the wanderlust that often pulls strong upon their spirit.
Stunts (to kick-off):
at 1st level, so long as he retains at least 1 point in his Stunt Pool, the born fighter may use the heal skill to administer long term care to himself - he may do so even untrained. He may not care for other people at the same time he cares for himself lest he forfeit his personal benefits.
at 7th level, while administering long term care to himself, he may personally gain the benefits of a full day's rest after only 8 hours of rest, once per day. Further, if he has ranks in the heal skill, he may include himself as a patient when administering long term care for others - he counts against his maximum number of patients, as normal.
thank you TheLoneCleric, Oceanshieldwolf. your idea has inspired me a little, so i figger i'll share.
Charlie Bell wrote:
as to your 'pool ability' suggestions, Charlie Bell >
i like Surprise Move, but think Surprise Technique is too powerful (some requirements are high BAB which i think should remain intact). plus, the "duration = encounter" mechanic is foreign to pathfinder, at least as far as i have seen (i generally use mostly core only).
how about a fusion into a single:
At 3rd level, by spending 1 point from his stunt pool as a move action, the born fighter may temporarily exchange a single 'swap feat' he has for another for which he qualifies. He gains the full benefit of the new feat and loses the benefits of the old feat for a duration of one round for every two born fighter levels he possesses. Any other feats he possesses that hold the lost feat as a prerequisite cease to function for the duration.
with the upgrade being:
Improved Surprise Moves
At 11th level, whenever the born fighter uses the Surprise Moves ability, any other feats he possesses that hold the lost feat as a prerequisite continue to work as normal for the duration.
'study' ability plus possible capstone
The born fighter may study a single opponent as a swift action. On or after the third round he spends studying a single opponent, he may spend 1 point from his stunt pool to make a Sense Motive check against a DC of 10 plus either his opponents BAB plus Charisma modifier or his opponent's Bluff skill bonus (whichever is higher). If he succeeds, he comes to know exactly which feats his opponent possesses. If he fails, the born fighter must wait until he gains a level of experience as a born fighter to retry this ability against the same foe. The born fighter may not use this ability to study somebody who is not currently engaged in a fight.
At 20th level, against one or more foes whom he has successfully used Understudy against, the born fighter may spend points from his stunt pool as a swift action to disable his opponents' feats. For each point spent, he chooses a single known feat. His opponents may not utilize that feat against the born fighter for a duration of 10 minutes - any bonuses granted by disabled feats are negated. This ability may only be used against the same foe no more than once between 8-hour rest periods.
Why not make it similar to the combat tricks? The throw your combat scabbard on a quick draw type thing. Make a list of stunts you can get every even level, and give them prerequisite feats. Make sure they are very specific to not be abused, but give them flavor.
I like Understudy and Counterstudy. Understudy failure should be that you can reattempt after 24 hours. Functionally it's quite similar: any target is probably not going to survive the encounter, anyways.
I forgot to specifically call out combat feats for Surprise Move, etc.
Good call on the duration = encounter. Now that I think of it, I can't think of any encounter duration effects either. Round/level wouldn't be out of line; round/2 levels is very, very short.
Also, if it's essentially the same mechanic as grit, call it grit! That way, feats like Extra Grit work with it, and it merges well with gunslinger deeds.
Charlie's got it on the Grit thingy.
I'm working on some ideas for this, but also a bit busy over with the MCA stuffs- I'll try to post a few ideas soon, but here's a thought.
Why make a whole new class/archetype? Just allow the fighter to give up a feat for one of these tricks and an extra point of Grit; allow the Rogue to do so as well a couple times with a talent at basic and advanced. This allows for current characters to use them right away, allows for easier flow in the game, and means less paperwork for those adapting it into their own campaigns.
I think someone already did something like this in another forum, that even included giving the fighter a animal companion like the ranger (which is not as strong as the druid) and it was a mount thing only (like cavalier), it turned it into a bunch of "talent" like options with advanced talents and the feats as usual.
'duration = encounter' translates roughly to '1 minute' in pathfinder, also, agreed 24 hours seems functionally the same (enough) and more elegant. 'retry when you gain a new level' is a little oldschool i suppose...
probably right on the Grit thing. honestly i could see it going either way. totally not sold on the 'stunt pool' name at all.
i'd like to collectively stumble through the enfleshing of this concept as a full archtype just to see what comes out - if it 'feels' unique enough to justify it's own archtype without invalidating the core class from which it springs, or not. i think it can.
it'd be interesting to see your take. i personally would leave all animals out though. other classes' bags.
agreed that an exhaustive list ought to be drawn up. but also from a creationist standpoint, i find that the primary obstacle here is attempting to be exhaustive but also flexible. to what extent is this possible?
@the arcane commando/engineer (ace?):
interested to hear your weighing in especially considering you unleashed this concept/thread...
this thread got me thinking about fighter feats - especially the arguments about reconciling the fighter as being (un/)able to be competent in multiple styles - and his flexibility in general.
in Iron Heroes rpg, the Man-At-Arms gets 'wild card feats' at levels 5, 11, and 20:
although folks here may still want to completely reskin the Gunfighter's Grit mechanic, i think the simplest fix to the fighter is to borrow the 'wild card feat' mechanic.
what is the best implementation configuration? 4/10/20? 6/12/20? 4/8/12/16/20? (note: his 'feat-retrain' levels are 4/8/12/16/20)
this would allow a more generalized fighter to possess the roots of multiple 'feat trees' while being able to secure a 'branch' when he needs it, or allow a highly specialized fighter to focus on that specialization but still keep an 'ace in the hole' if he is thrown for a major loop.
note that this solution does not add to the number of feats a fighter possesses at any one time, it just allows him more fluidity of access akin to that a caster has. it also introduces a more tactical play - and more complication too.
Mechanically abilities like tradeable "wild card feats" seem good, thematically they seem off to me. The fighter can pull off the jack of all trades style of fighting to some degree, but I feel being a fighter means you are the master of one specific style of fighting. To have power attack in one fight, and the next fight not knowing it at all makes no sense. An alternative would be to designate feat chains (PBS, PA, Whirlwind attack chain) and give some split feats that gives designated feats at certain levels low in the feat chain of each. In a way similar to ranger style fears, but even less flexibility in feat choice, and no advanced feats. That way a fighter can mix some fighting styles and then focus on what really matters to them.
this tones down the power a little bit (much like the difference between prepared and spontaneous casting) but still allows for significant flexibility (and strategic planning!).
it would function as an argument for allowing more than three such slots over a 20-level progression too (such as 4/8/12/16/20 vs 5/11/20).
but to refute your claim anyway, regardless of preparedness/spontaneousness, i imagine that a fighter of any given level will already have a core 'build' (even if 'rougher' than Fighter as written - indeed combat feats are still MAD), and the wild slots would just represent a flourish to that style.
I wasn't trying to suggest that grit should be used exclusively to swap out feats on the fly, merely that using grit to swap out feats on the fly would be a nice use for it for a fighter.
A hypothetical fighter archetype that gave a grit pool and the four deeds I outlined above should probably lose all fighter bonus feats in exchange. Basically, you'd exchange permanent, unlimited use bonus feats for flexible bonus feats limited by daily grit.
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