I have an Alchemist in PFS, and he is only 2nd level right now, but I am doing some long term planning for him.
Right now I am debating on what armor I want for him in the future. The MBP is significantly cheaper and is lighter, but the Celestial Armor will give me a higher AC down the road, as not only do I doubt I will get a +3 enhancement bonus on my MBP, but I will be able to raise my DEX higher because of the higher max DEX allowed for the Celestial Armor.
Another factor is using a mutagen, which would give me a +4. Right now my DEX is a 16, so if I ever decided to raise my DEX with a magic item, the effectiveness of the mutagen would be less effective (or not effective at all) due to my max DEX only being a 20 for the MBP.
Nevermind it would be nice having Fly once per day. However, the Celestial Armor of course is a significant investment.
My question to all of you, do you feel the extra investment of Celestial Armor is worth it? Or especially in PFS?
Suggestions are appreciated.
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I say the extra investment is totally worth it. Make sure you take the medium armor proficiency feat though. Also, if you don't feel like spending a feat then look into elven chain. It counts as light armour, but gives the bonus of chainmail and is much cheaper then one feat and celestial armor. Max DEX is hard to get around though, so for that go celestial.
Celestial Armor counts as light armor as well. I wouldn't consider it otherwise as I don't have the feat to burn.
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How are you planning on getting higher armor proficiencies on your Alchemist? And, more importantly, why do you feel that's necessary? My 14th level PFS Alchemist has had 19 AC for basically his entire career, and I've never regretted that decision. Your durability comes from your extracts: false life, shield, displacement, and greater invisibility will get you a lot farther than any armor.
If you are terribly set on getting fancy armor, though, get the MBP. It's substantially cheaper; Celestial Armor is simply way too expensive for the benefit it provides, especially when you can just make extracts of fly.
Finally, mutagens, particularly Dex mutagens, lose their effectiveness fairly early for your standard bombing Alchemist. Con mutagens are more worthwhile, and Int cognatogens (when you can spare the discovery) are more worthwhile still.
How are you planning on getting higher armor proficiencies on your Alchemist? And, more importantly, why do you feel that's necessary? My 14th level PFS Alchemist has had 19 AC for basically his entire career, and I've never regretted that decision. Your durability comes from your extracts: false life, shield, displacement, and greater invisibility will get you a lot farther than any armor.
If you are terribly set on getting fancy armor, though, get the MBP. It's substantially cheaper; Celestial Armor is simply way too expensive for the benefit it provides, especially when you can just make extracts of fly.
Finally, mutagens, particularly Dex mutagens, lose their effectiveness fairly early for your standard bombing Alchemist. Con mutagens are more worthwhile, and Int cognatogens (when you can spare the discovery) are more worthwhile still.
First off, you don't need a higher armor proficiency, Alchemist's can wear light armor, and Celestial Armor is considered as such.
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
I am actually undecided on buying the armor, that is why I was asking the opinion of others (like yourself) on what you recommend.
But to answer your question, one of the reasons I wanted to get the armor was to have the option to raise my AC higher. I am glad your AC 19 has worked well for you, but I wanted the option to raise it higher if necessary. And doing that would probably be through DEX (or maybe a Ring of Protection), and as I have a 16 DEX already, I couldn't go too much higher, especially if I do use a DEX mutagen.
But I know you indicated DEX mutagens lose their effectiveness earlier on, I don't know, a +2 to hit for my bombs and splash weapons is always nice, never mind the additional AC. I find an additional +2 to AC benefits you more so than +2 HP a level.
But I will keep your suggestions in mind, thanks!
Buy Celestial Armor. Celestial Armor and Celestial Plate Armor are pretty much the two best item deals in Pathfinder. There is nothing else that comes close to being as efficient for the gold.
If you go with Mithral Breatplate, you are going to eat a -1 to attack, in terms of armor penalty, as well as a -1 to all movement skills.
A +3 Mithral Breastplate will run you about ~13k.
+3 Celestial Armor runs you about 22k.9k for fly 1/day and +1 to attack seems okay. It's an even better deal if your dex goes above +3.
-Cross
I should have clarified that I did take the Armor Expert trait, so I would have a 0 ACP with MBP, but would still have -1 with Celestial Armor. Although I could live with that.
However, why would I take a -1 to attack with MBP? ACP only affects skill-based checks. It's when you are non-proficient it affects attacks as well, but MBP is considered light armor, so I wouldn't need the proficiency for that (as I have light as an Alchemist).
Most mithral armors are one category lighter
than normal for purposes of movement and other
limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and
medium armors are treated as light, but light armors
are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to
proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing
mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy
armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all
his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.
straight copy pasted from core rulebook.
Ok, my mistake. Thanks for the correction.
Shoot. Well, it looks like it will be MBP then, as I will have a ACP of 0 with my Armor Expert.
Ok, my mistake. Thanks for the correction.
Shoot. Well, it looks like it will be MBP then, as I will have a ACP of 0 with my Armor Expert.
that would be my recommendation as well.
straight copy pasted from core rulebook.Most mithral armors are one category lighter
than normal for purposes of movement and other
limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and
medium armors are treated as light, but light armors
are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to
proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing
mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy
armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all
his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.
That doesn't matter. It's a general rule. Celestial armor specifically says that it's considered light and gives no exceptions to that. Specific trumps general every time.
1.) Do I plan to get my dex to 22+?2.) Do I have something better to do with my cash than buy armor bonuses?
If the answer to (1) is "No", or the answer to (2) is "Yes", go with the MBP, since it doesn't really hurt you, thanks to Armor Expert.
MBP preserves your cash flexibility a bit, too.
-Cross
These are the questions I've been asking myself, especially that first one.
I did want the option of going 22+, as I certainly have strongly thought about getting DEX enchanced items as it not only helps me on AC, but to hit with my bombs and splash weapons and bow attacks (I also have a Composite Longbow as a back-up)
But I guess I can make do without raising my DEX for attacks, as my main attacks are touch only. And if I want to make up AC, I can go with a Ring of Protection (instead of raising my DEX).
So the more I think on it, MBP won’t be too much lesser of an option, at least for my character.
Thanks to all for your suggestions!
That doesn't matter. It's a general rule. Celestial armor specifically says that it's considered light and gives no exceptions to that. Specific trumps general every time.straight copy pasted from core rulebook.Most mithral armors are one category lighter
than normal for purposes of movement and other
limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and
medium armors are treated as light, but light armors
are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to
proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing
mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy
armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all
his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.
That’s an interesting question, though.
Celestial Armor is chainmail, which is considered medium. I thought as you did, where the armor is actually light, but by that description in the CRB, wouldn’t Celestial Armor fall under that limitation as well? Maybe it means it is light armor in the sense how medium Mithral armor is light?
I was only bringing it up due to the acp to attack rolls for mithral armor. I wasn't talking about celestial in the least.
Celestial Armor is chainmail, which is considered medium. I thought as you did, where the armor is actually light, but by that description in the CRB, wouldn’t Celestial Armor fall under that limitation as well? Maybe it means it is light armor in the sense how medium Mithral armor is light?
It's an interesting question that has been answered an awful lot of times. =D
Celestial Armor is light: "...It is considered light armor..."
Mithral does not make an armor light, as noted above.
Dev guys have been pretty clear on this topic, I believe.
-Cross
Ok, I had not seen the question (or Devs answer) on this before. Where mithral armor is clear (now that I’ve actually read it, the only difference in wording is Celestial Armor says it is “considered” as light armor and Mithral armor says armor is “treated” as one category lower.
What is truly the difference between “considered” and “treated” by RAW? That is where the question was for me. However, if the Devs have piped in saying Celestial Armor is light, then that’s a different story.
For me, it just makes my decision difficult again. :)
Well, I do plan to go high level (beyond 12) with my Alchemist.
So I will have him for awhile, barring that he doesn’t die (permanently).
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Here's something to think about when you look at what proficiency specials armors may need.....
Celestial Armor
DESCRIPTION
This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
Elven Chain
DESCRIPTION
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of –2.
Which of these two armors do you think only needs needs light armor proficiency?
Did they forget to add "including when determining proficiency" on Celestial Armor description? It just says considered light armor.
Look at Mithral Full Plate description....
Mithral Full Plate of Speed
DESCRIPTION
As a free action, the wearer of this fine set of +1 mithral full plate can activate it, enabling him to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 25%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of –3. It is considered medium armor, except that you must be proficient in heavy armor to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties.
I could be wrong about this with Celestial Armor, does anyone have any links to Dev post on Celestial Armor?
Celestial armor is light armor. The mithral limitation is for mithral, which celestial armor does not have.
Here's a link for a statement by James Jacobs.
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That doesn't matter. It's a general rule. Celestial armor specifically says that it's considered light and gives no exceptions to that. Specific trumps general every time.straight copy pasted from core rulebook.Most mithral armors are one category lighter
than normal for purposes of movement and other
limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and
medium armors are treated as light, but light armors
are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to
proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing
mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy
armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all
his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.That’s an interesting question, though.
Celestial Armor is chainmail, which is considered medium. I thought as you did, where the armor is actually light, but by that description in the CRB, wouldn’t Celestial Armor fall under that limitation as well? Maybe it means it is light armor in the sense how medium Mithral armor is light?
It makes your choice even more obvious, actually. The Celestial Armor, per it's write up is light. A mithral breastplate, however, while light, still requires Medium armor proficiency. So the lesser of the two choice ALSO requires an extra feat.
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It makes your choice even more obvious, actually. The Celestial Armor, per it's write up is light. A mithral breastplate, however, while light, still requires Medium armor proficiency. So the lesser of the two choice ALSO requires an extra feat.That doesn't matter. It's a general rule. Celestial armor specifically says that it's considered light and gives no exceptions to that. Specific trumps general every time.straight copy pasted from core rulebook.Most mithral armors are one category lighter
than normal for purposes of movement and other
limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and
medium armors are treated as light, but light armors
are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to
proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing
mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy
armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all
his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.That’s an interesting question, though.
Celestial Armor is chainmail, which is considered medium. I thought as you did, where the armor is actually light, but by that description in the CRB, wouldn’t Celestial Armor fall under that limitation as well? Maybe it means it is light armor in the sense how medium Mithral armor is light?
Unless he is using the Armor Expert trait, which he is.