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I figured since the discussion of incorporating Mythic rules into Reign of Winter were coming along nicely, I'd bring up the same topic for my OTHER campaign, Runelords, and questions as to if Mythic tiers could be incorporated into this game.
To be honest, there is one real reason I'd incorporate Mythic campaigns into Runelords: Karzoug. I've seen several campaigns in which the Big K ends up wiped fairly quickly, and some Mythic abilities might increase his effectiveness. The problem lies in how to enhance Karzoug without making him TOO powerful - one possibility is to strip away his entourage and instead have him with several Archmage Tiers to compensate. But even then that's a bit iffy and ignores the fun that comes by having the party themselves enhanced with Mythic abilities.
On the whole, it seems like Runelords is... less viable for a full-blown Mythic campaign, even when compared to Reign of Winter. In theory, the first encounter with the Runewell could be considered a method of introducing one Mythic tier into the game, but somehow I'm not sure it fits. If it did, there are two foes that could be considered a potential Mythic encounter in the first part of the AP (Nualia and Mal), both of them have caused TPKs as-is. They definitely don't need enhancing, or if they did then a low-level Mythic boost would at most be what's called for.
The region where Mythic tiers could more effectively be integrated into the campaign is in the fourth AP, when the group is facing down the stone giants and find the Library. The Big M would likely be an effective foe to provide Mythic Tiers to enhance (and possibly an enemy to face soon after the characters themselves gain initial mythic tiers). Another place would obviously be the demiplane where the PCs gain their Dominant weapons - alternatively, the Pool could be used to enhance the PCs themselves.
So, does anyone have any stories or suggestions on trying to incorporate Mythic into Runelords?
Well I can't promise it will work, but I'm going to be starting up a Mythic-ish RotRL for my friends at the end of the month.
The current plan is to start them off at mythic tier 1 and on either the medium or slow XP track. They'll probably have 1 Greater Trial per chapter (possibly the completion of the chapter) which means they'd end up at about Tier 7. In order to combat their increased strength I plan to do a couple of things:
Increase the size of group encounters. 4 goblins? Now 6 goblins. 3 level 4 rogues? Now 4 level 4 rogues.
Add Mythic Tiers to appropriate encounters. A certain angry cleric and The Skinsaw Man, for example. Not sure if X is going to need it, and given that Karzoug is explicitly not Mythic, I was going to find another way to beef him up.
More powerful foes. Not every major enemy should be mythic, but some could be generally more powerful. Extra class levels, older age category (Oh look, instead of 1 Adult Blue, Karzoug now has 2 Mature Adult Blues), templates, and of course, anything that has a name is getting bumped up to 25pb, with anything that previously had 25 probably getting bumped up to 30.
I'll let you know how this goes, my group tends to get through content pretty fast (they're getting better at RP, but they're still built for combat), but we can only ever play every other weekend, so it'll be a while before we make a sizable dent into the campaign. If anyone has any advice, suggestions, or questions though, just let me know.
Why shouldn't Karzoug be Mythic? His Mythic ability is just because the Thassilonians were that uber. :)
Small suggestion: rather than more critters (who tend to slow down combat), increase levels by +1 CR (which is either two levels of a non-combatant class, or one level of fighter and the like) for every two mythic tiers, and possibly give critters Maximum hit points.
The reason why I'm not making Karzoug Mythic is because each of the Runelords is at a certain power level and Greed falls right in the middle of them. He's level 20, Alaznist is 20+template, Sorshen and Xanderguul are 20+Mythic. Krune is, I believe, level 17, and Gluttony and Envy fall somewhere between Krune and Karzoug. I'd like to keep that intact without having to later buff up other Runelords if they happen to get official stats later.
And you have a good point on the buffing up of the creature CRs, but as a counter to that, one of my players is a bit of a power gamer whose opinion of what "fun" is is "hit it with as many numbers as possible." Making a single target that is a threat to him that doesn't just make him explode with one hit is a chore and makes the rest of the party useless against said creature, so while I agree in principle it just doesn't work well with my players.
Good idea on the max HP though, I was actually intending to do that, I just forgot about it.
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I plan on using mythic in my RotRL game we're starting on Sunday. I want to give them ascension when they encounter/destroy the minor runewell in Chapter 1. I figure that I'll be increasing the mythic tiers at about 1 per Chapter (also giving them tier 7 toward the end). Karzoug I'm going full tier 10. By the time they get there, I figure the characters will be fairly powerful and should be able to handle it.
In this campaign, all mythic power is going to stem from the rune magic of ancient Thassilon. For powerful creatures that are not "main boss" servants of Karzoug, I'm just going to give them a mythic template. For the intelligent creatures with class levels, I'm going to give them actual tiers.
I can list examples as I come to them. There's another thread on this as well that I was going to post details.
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I'm using Mythic in my RotRL campaign as well. As for making Karzoug Mythic, what I've done to explain that is his "default" is Transmuter 20. When talking about Karzoug being the middle Runelord, I place the accounting of that power roster as just before Earthfall.
So it's the events of RotRL that is making Karzoug Mythic. For my campaign, the Soul Lens is the trigger. Basically, all those souls Karzoug has been siphoning aren't just to help with his release but are also part of his ritual for Mythic ascension. So by the time the party gets to the final fight, he'll have siphoned enough soul power for 3 Mythic Tiers. Putting him on the high-end of a +1 CR boost without going too overboard on "displacing" his position within Runelord rankings.
Speaking of Runelord rankings (and a slight tangent):
We know Krune bottoms out the scale at Level 17 (CR 18) with Karzoug in the middle at Level 20 (CR 21). Now assuming Belismarius is Level 18 (CR 19) or thereabouts, I've been having trouble figuring out how Zutha can be weaker than Karzoug.
Assuming he's the same level as Krune - 17 - and gets the same +2 boost to CR from stats and wealth that all Runelords seem to get, he starts at CR 18. Fine. But he gets +2 for being a lich which puts him to 20, and he built the Cenotaph which we now know he used for Mythic rituals (see Mythic Realms) so he probably has at least 1 Mythic Tier. So he's at least Karzoug's equal at CR 21.
However, I figure he's actually more powerful than that - equal to Belismarius in Levels which puts him to 22 (minimum). Also, without spoiling too much from Shattered Star, there's an NPC in the Continuing the Campaign section who wishes to serve Zutha and that guy is CR 24. It would be weird (for me) to see a minion who is stronger than their boss, so for my campaigns I've pegged Zutha at CR 24, same as the servant (he's stronger is some ways and weaker in others). Level 19, +2 wealth and Stats, +2 Lich, and 5 Mythic Tiers.
But even outside my own campaigns, in "Official Golarion" I don't see how Zutha can be less than CR 21 at minimum.
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For Thassilon - Lost Kingdoms is your best bet. For more on the Runelords and their magic, Shattered Star has some nice tidbits throughout, but especially the first and last installments of Shattered Star.
Shattered Star 1 has a great article on Starmetal and how these mysterious metals were used by the Runelords. And Shattered Star 6 has an article providing a 1-page profile on each Runelord.
As for their ranking - that's never been published but James Jacobs has provided it on these boards on a number of occasions. It goes:
- Krune
- Belimarius/Zutha (James has gone back and forth on this one a few times)
- Karzoug
- Alaznist
- Sorshen
- Xanderghul
Though not official yet, James has estimated Sorshen's CR at about 26 and Xanderghul's CR at 28. Obviously subject to change.
As for Krune, he was statted up for the final scenario of Season 4 Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The PFS module is called The Waking Rune.
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Thanks! I just bought Lost Kingdoms, so I'll start to dive into that right away. I may pick up Shattered Star just for a read-through while I run RotRL (especially with the current PDF sale).
I know some people have tried to run RotRL and Shattered Star at the same time, as one mega campaign... that's something to think about.
The Mythic rules may adjust the CRs as well, but it's interesting to know that they're intended to have a ranking in CR, rather than just in political power.
Now that a little time has passed, I'd love to hear how these Mythic Rune Lords campaigns are working out.
I've had a gigantic 10 person RotRL campaign that I've already been working hard to keep interesting, so obviously making the characters *more* powerful makes total sense, right? ;)
Thus far I've accomplished this by increasing the # of mobs, upping their AC, and giving as many challenges as possible that they can't solve with their swords. Still, I wouldn't be averse to adding mythic templates to mobs in order to give the players opportunities to feel like heroes, and adding tiers to the important ones to make the fights seem like a big deal. They are going to fight Aldern Foxglove soon and I'm already having to bump him to CR 8 with two CR 7 Vampire Enforcer bodyguards, just to make sure they don't smash him in a single round. Him having a mythic tier or two might mix things up quite nicely.
Adding a Mythic Tier or two could make him quite potent. I had experience with a Mythic Assassin Succubus that was very enjoyable for the group. (They won at the very end and it was a fairly tough fight - not so much in the players nearly dying but in being somewhat ineffective against her while she played with them. Until the lucky natural 20 dropped her to 2 hit points...)
I'm not sure if vampire enforcers is a good idea. I'd suggest a pair of Mythic Gargoyles. Constant damage resistance that magic weapons can't overcome, while having a breath weapon to boot. :D
Thanks, I'll look into it.
As I've been poking around the threads here, I started wondering about combining Rise with Wrath of the Righteous. I have the first two Wrath PDFs, and need to read to see if they can come together at all.
My rationale would be the fact that by the end of Wrath they are level 18 with 9 tiers, I'm just not sure of the scale of encounters and even the geography will line up.
Actually by the end of Wrath they're level 20 with 10 tiers. I'm not sure how you could interweave the two.
Indeed, I'll need to read it.
Especially since I'll need to make a move by the end of the Skinsaw Murders if they are going to detour. Apparently they would need to finish up with Big K before the last chapter of Wrath, which is of course not out yet.
*Edit since they need to be level 17ish against big K. But giving him some tiers can help balance that out.
Actually by the end of Wrath they're level 20 with 10 tiers. I'm not sure how you could interweave the two.
Tangent,
Rather than completely threadjack this one, I kind of wrote a novel of a post on the Wrath of the Righteous Board that I'd be interested in your thoughts on.
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ecw101,
While talking about Wrath of the Righteous at Gencon, the Paizo brass* said that Mythic was able to advance the player characters much quicker than a standard campaign. In order to challenge mythic characters, you're going to need to increase the CR for about 1/3 of the fights. Since character levels are still raising a the same rate (based on CR of the encounter and experience points), they are going to be leveling a lot faster than usual. Paizo expects players to hit level 20 about half with through the last book of Wrath of the Righteous. They simply cannot fit enough encounters into the current AP line to get higher than 17th-18th level. Mythic is allowing them to break this barrier.
What does this mean for our mythic Rise of the Runelords? This means the same thing will happen to our players: they're going to advance a lot quicker in the later books. If you keep adjusting the CR of the encounters to challenge the players (and I agree that you should!), then they'll probably hit 20th level before going up against that dynamo of greed. Not only will he need a few mythic tiers, but perhaps a template on his buddies as well.
As a secondary thought, since Wrath and Rise have such different hooks/plotlines, I would rope them into Mythic Adventures with your Rise of the Runelords campaign, then roll that gaming group into a Wrath of the Righteous campaign next.
*I couldn't remember precisely who said this
I'm toying with the idea as well but I want to try to break up the first mythic tier in two or three portions and have them gain some mythic power after they defeat the tiny witch and the second portion after encountering N in Burnt Offerings. From there I will see how it goes (and how much time it'll cost me to advance the monster even further to provide fun to both my players and me), and either have them advance further or stalling their progression with them having "only" gained the surge ability and then some--giving big K mythic tiers regardless.
Ruyan.
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I also went with introducing tier one slowly. Giving them a partial hard to kill (they still need to roll to stabalize but at 10 + 1/2 negative points, up to - 2 constitution, etc)
They will get surge (but only 3 per day at first), and on of their feats. Maybe after Nulia I will boost them to full tier one.
Here's how they went mythic (and my players don't really know mythic exists so I will just give them "power cards" explaining some of their new abilities.
The trigger was the destruction of the pool. I have 7 characters involved, so I had bumped Erylium up one level in witch. In any case, when she finally died/was dying, I had her fly into the rune-well. They saw her blood seep out and spread throughout the pool, they saw the pool diminish down to nothing, then a cinematic ring of energy burst out in all directions. They were all dazed for a round, then over the next two rounds the last to Sinspawn that the well could create came out.
But also their mythic ascension came from absorbing the wrathful souls of the pool. For each character I rolled 1d4 ... based on that number, over the next four rounds characters, based off their roll, would have to attack for that one round with their most deadly attack the closest creature, friend or foe ... again, they only had to do that for that one round.
With some confusion, some good role playing, and the fact that I have some young players 9-12 as well as adults (the parents) the ascension part of the encounter was awesome.
They didn't know what was going on or why they were raging like that. And although they only had one round where they were told to attack a specific person, there were many rounds where with using only character knowledge they were attacking each other because it made sense that they would (they've only known each other for a week at this point)
Again, they don't know what mythic is (they aren't as geeky as me and don't know the new books coming out, etc.) so after the session I showed them the one paragraph mythic path descriptions and asked then which one best described their character.
In any case the round of wrathfully attacking their allies over the four rounds after the pool was destroyed was quite fun.
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AND ... I just added in the last session, when they use a mythic point there is a chance that they rage uncontrollably again because of the source of their mythic ability being