Fighter's mark dissapear in one round, but he doesn't need to hit. Just an attack marks you. He can retaliate with a bonus, and he has something no other thank has: the ability to stop the monstrars in tveir tracks. When a marked monster tries to move from him, he can AoO it, and with a hit, the movement ends. A paladin that marks an orc can't do anything to stop him mo ing past him and going to the wizard in the rear lines to smack him. The or just shrugs off and takes the tiny fixed damage. Fighters are the stickier defenders in 4e. And also was incredibly high in DPR in the begining, thanks to the broken tempest fighter, which had striker-like DPR. They also have the strongest tank ability, Come and Get it (and it's improved versions)
Come and get it is in the basic core PHB, and their replacements are there too. It's an AoE compulsory movement for all enemies that doesn't need to roll. A short of "challenging shout" or aoe taunt from WOW that cant miss, followed by a Whirlwind-like stuff.
And the ability to stop movement with AoO is the basic fighter ability from PHBI, and that's what make fighters the most sticky defenders in 4e. The Tempest fighter came out in Martial Power 1, so it was out before the sword sage with it's completely broken (and later nerfed) dual strike and double sword.
If you feel the need to take Cloaks of Resistance over other, more flavorful cloaks, just take a page from 4e D&D. There, all neck items (cloaks, amulets, necklaces, etc) basically include the effects of a Cloak of Resistance, along with whatever other special abilities they have. So something like the Elven Cloak (PFs Cloak of Elvenkind) grants not only a Stealth bonus, but a bonus to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.
Maybe all magic rings, in addition to their normal effects, could also grant a deflection bonus to AC.
For stat enhancers, throw in an additional ability. Maybe items that boost Strength or Constitution also grant the ability reroll a Fortitude save 1/day or more. Same with Intelligence/Dexterity with Reflex, and Wisdom/Charisma with Will.
Granted, throwing in extra effects would mess with Wealth by Level. So either ignore the prices of the extra effects, or just ignore Wealth by Level.
We just use the rules for that. A cloak of Elven Kind/Resistance +1 would cost 4000 GP. 2500 for the Cloak of Eleven Kind then add Resistance +1 at 50% more on the cost of the second ability which 1000 gp so 1500 gp.
Fighter's mark dissapear in one round, but he doesn't need to hit. Just an attack marks you. He can retaliate with a bonus, and he has something no other thank has: the ability to stop the monstrars in tveir tracks. When a marked monster tries to move from him, he can AoO it, and with a hit, the movement ends. A paladin that marks an orc can't do anything to stop him mo ing past him and going to the wizard in the rear lines to smack him. The or just shrugs off and takes the tiny fixed damage. Fighters are the stickier defenders in 4e. And also was incredibly high in DPR in the begining, thanks to the broken tempest fighter, which had striker-like DPR. They also have the strongest tank ability, Come and Get it (and it's improved versions)
The Paladin's mark deals 3 + Charisma damage if they ignore you and can be used from a distance making it much less reliant on being close to them immediately. The fighter get's a melee basic attack as an immediate interrupt if he's close enough to do it, but the attack is vanilla (not an at-will with a bonus, just a mundane attack) and can miss (and due to the way attacks scale in 4E you've got a pretty solid chance at it) and do nothing at all. It's also not an opportunity attack so your Combat Superiority power that makes enemies stop moving does not apply to it (sorry, but it doesn't, right there in the text of the core rulebook).
The Paladin's damage is guaranteed. And it's not bad damage. 3 + 3 Cha guaranteed damage is a higher DPR than someone swinging a greatsword with a +3 strength modifier with a 35% miss chance (which isn't hard to do if you're fighting a soldier enemy as they tend to have high AC anyway). Since the damage is basically unstoppable it's basically eat damage or deal with the Paladin. This is a very bad thing for the enemies because every hit not directed at the Paladin is getting them closer to getting killed (it also means combats will go faster if they want to ignore you). Since you can keep the same dude marked or mark a different guy each round while you move around to engage them you can mark multiple opponents often regardless of terrain. If you mark a minion they're dead in the water if they try to attack (since there is no attack roll the mark kills the minion automatically if they try to attack someone other than the paladin).
There's a lot of really good tanking powers for core 4E Paladins that emphasize Charisma. Most of them also benefit from weapon bonuses to hit and have a variety of defenses that you can target (Efeenbling and Bolsterng Strike are at-wills that target AC using Charisma as your driving ability score, gaining bonuses from weapons, and either deal damage and grant you temporary HP - which is cooler than wasting healing surges - or apply a -2 penalty to the target's offenses), they have a lot of ranged potential (several of the Charisma-based powers like their dailies are ranged attacks that deal a lot of damage and/or carry kicker effects). Some of their /encounter abilities are pretty nice too (like the 3rd level Paladin power that lets you deal x2 weapon damage + Cha damage and grant every ally within 5 squares 5 + wisdom temporary HP).
Honestly Charisma Paladins were my favorite tank in 4E Core because they were versatile, came out of the gate with high defenses and better armor proficiencies, were pretty easy to push into SAD areas (because you can mostly ignore Strength for offense), have a mixture of powerful melee and ranged attacks which often come with team buffs or foe debuffs, and their dailies combo nicely. For example, the 5th level Paladin daily Sign of Vulnerability is a 5 square ranged Charisma attack that gains bonuses from Implements. It deals 3d8+Cha radiant damage and gives Radiant Vulnerability 5. If you nail a solo enemy with that you're basically saying "oh, every time you ignore me again, you're taking 3 + Cha + 5 damage and the -2 to hit, and I'm going to destroy you with more radiant damage. Or the massive team buffs like the 6th level utility prayer Wrath of the Gods which allows you to 1/day grant you and every ally adjacent to you a bonus to all damage rolls (ALL OF THEM) equal to your Charisma modifier (oh nice, especially since lots of static damage is hard to find). Or the 7th level Beckon Foe which is a range 5 Charisma vs Will (which gains bonuses from implements) that deals 2d10 + Charisma damage to the target and pulls them towards you.
This is just from the core rules. From my rulebook. The one I'm reading these out of right now. Paladins aren't hurting for stats anymore than anyone else is. Charisma, Wisdom, Constitution, Int or Dex, in pretty much that Order serves you nicely. They can get all their damage and status-ailment goodiness from the Charisma path, and they have a lot of AoE, tanking, ranged, buff, and debuff options. The fact they can also serve as a supporter and grant additional saving throws with bonuses (Charisma again!) to allies is also snazzy.
Again, not from memory, but from the book. So Fighter marks do not help them hold down enemies, just allows them an attempt at a basic attack which deals [W]+Str damage and does nothing else. The only way that their movement ending effect procs is if they make an opportunity attack which is not the same thing.
Also, none of the things you mentioned about fighters were true at 4E launch in Core. Fighters in core 4E do not strikers make. They have pretty consistent damage but they can't even dual wield. Rangers destroy them in striker damage. Come and get it didn't even exist, unless it's not listed as that name in the manual.
Also, none of the things you mentioned about fighters were true at 4E launch in Core. Fighters in core 4E do not strikers make. They have pretty consistent damage but they can't even dual wield. Rangers destroy them in striker damage. Come and get it didn't even exist, unless it's not listed as that name in the manual.
Its in my copy of the PHB 1. Says its a first printing. 7th level fighter encounter power.
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We just use the rules for that. A cloak of Elven Kind/Resistance +1 would cost 4000 GP. 2500 for the Cloak of Eleven Kind then add Resistance +1 at 50% more on the cost of the second ability which 1000 gp so 1500 gp.If you feel the need to take Cloaks of Resistance over other, more flavorful cloaks, just take a page from 4e D&D. There, all neck items (cloaks, amulets, necklaces, etc) basically include the effects of a Cloak of Resistance, along with whatever other special abilities they have. So something like the Elven Cloak (PFs Cloak of Elvenkind) grants not only a Stealth bonus, but a bonus to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.
Maybe all magic rings, in addition to their normal effects, could also grant a deflection bonus to AC.
For stat enhancers, throw in an additional ability. Maybe items that boost Strength or Constitution also grant the ability reroll a Fortitude save 1/day or more. Same with Intelligence/Dexterity with Reflex, and Wisdom/Charisma with Will.
Granted, throwing in extra effects would mess with Wealth by Level. So either ignore the prices of the extra effects, or just ignore Wealth by Level.
Sure, if you're the DM handing out combo items, this is a great solution. And I'm sure your players will thank you for the extra market value, if they ever decide to sell their Cloak of Eleven King. ;)
But from a player's perspective, charging extra for additional item bennies as per the RAW doesn't change anything. The wisest choices are still the boring choices. If interesting bennies cost extra, it's wisest to save your cash for another vanilla Big Six item or the next higher bonus on a Big Six item you already have.
Jeraa's point is that 4e-style items make the wise choices a standard 'background' function of magical items. There's no choice between getting the next bonus, or getting the Enchantment of Eleven Kinds, because all weapons, implements, armor, and neck items grant both a bonus and an interesting advantage or power.
Jeraa's point is that 4e-style items make the wise choices a standard 'background' function of magical items. There's no choice between getting the next bonus, or getting the Enchantment of Eleven Kinds, because all weapons, implements, armor, and neck items grant both a bonus and an interesting advantage or power.
That actually sounds really cool.
Ah, thank you Jeraa. I stand corrected. I overlooked it and the improved version mentioned doesn't share a name but is a 23rd level encounter power called Warrior's Urging. XD
Still, it's not as awesome as was described. It's a burst 3 that requires enemies to shift 2 spaces towards you, then you get a burst 1 attack against anyone who happens to be in melee then. But since you're limited to 1 immediate action each turn they can just shift away from you on their turn if they want to. Or if you just drew a ton of enemies towards you they all likely have combat advantage so I guess that's good somehow in a "you're not attacking my ranger" sense. *ponders*
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Jeraa's point is that 4e-style items make the wise choices a standard 'background' function of magical items. There's no choice between getting the next bonus, or getting the Enchantment of Eleven Kinds, because all weapons, implements, armor, and neck items grant both a bonus and an interesting advantage or power.That actually sounds really cool.
It actually is pretty cool. I've definitely tried to spice up the effects of items in my games from time to time, and I do recommend the -50% rule for static effects on items with special abilities rather than the +50% rule. It allows you to have interesting items at competitive prices while preventing you from loading up on static bonuses on the cheap. :)
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Take it from a veteran 4e DM, fighters are so much more of a headache than paladins, especially with only the PHB. Auto damage is nice, but the fighter's ability to say "No, you can't move away from me" is so much more...infuriating. To get away from a fighter, my baddy has to either risk an AoO that stops it in its tracks -- which, thanks to his weapon talent and combat superiority, will in all likelihood hit -- or provoke his combat challenge attack...to get a mere 5 feet away.
If the squishy characters are in a convenient little clump with the defender, and my baddies don't need to get away from the defender to get at them, the paladin has an advantage over the fighter...but players are usually smarter than that.
4e martial power (an early supplement that came out 3 months after core) introduced a dual wielding variant for fighters called tempest and a temp HP focused fighter called the juggernaught
tempest fighter got dual wield powers, and +2 to attack and damage with off hand weapons (essentially daggers). it lacked quarry, and lacked most of the powers that made a ranger powerful, but it dealt high consistent DPR as long as it hit.
juggernaught fighter, gained temporary HP on a successful hit with a power or basic attack, as long as it hit at least once with that power or basic attack, regardless of at will, daily, or encounter. the temp HP equaled level+con score or x1.5 if using a 2handed dweapon. meaning a 22nd level juggernaught fighter w/ 18 constitution gained 40 temp HP, or 60 with a 2handed weapon. the temp HP stacked with every other source but itself.
adventurers armory 1, introduced an exotic weapon called the Mordenkrad. it was a 2handed weapon that dealt 2d6 base damage with the brutal 2 property, meaning you rerolled any 1s and 2s on any damage roll with it.
adventurer's armory also introduced the bloodclaw and reckless weapon enchantments.
reckless, at will, let you sacrifice 2 AC for twice the weapon enhancement bonus as a momentum bonus to damage once per round that increased the damage of your attacks for that whole round
bloodclaw, at will, once per round, let you sacrifice an amount of HP equal to the weapon's enhancement bonus for twice the bonus on damage rolls for a round, triple if 2handed, as a profane bonus. this stacked with weapon enhancements like bloodclaw
player's handbook 2, introduced a feat called weapon expertise, which gave you +1 per tier on attack rolls.
power attack, let you take a 1 time -2, for +2 per tier to damage, +3 per tier if wielding a 2handed weapon
a tempest fighter at 16th level, with power attack, a +4 bloodclaw dagger, a +4 reckless dagger, +4 armbands of might, and weapon expertise (light blades) with a 20 Strength dealt on a dual strike
+2-2+2+4+8+5 +19 to hit for 1d4+2+4+4+8+4
or +19 to hit for 1d4+22 twice per round with an at will power at the cost of -2 AC and -4 HP.
if both attacks hit, that is 47 average damage at level 16. a pretty strikeresque value Ranger at that level does slightly more unless the fighter also has the stormwarden paragon path via feat tax.
ranger has better dailies and more automatic damage, this fighter alternate weapon talent gives a higher to hit, currently being traded for more damage.
Good points all around. Tequila's explanation as to why the fighter's a viable defender is a good one. My group never bothered to get any 4E splatbooks because we lost interest in 4E shortly after trying it for a while (as a GM I kept having to make up tons of rules that weren't included in the game, found it rather irritating that almost everything was just about dealing damage most of the time, such as in the case of things like poisons; and my favorite things about 4E - minions - I've been doing with 3.x for ages so...I guess that's why I'm GMing with a Pathfinder base to my games :P).
Good points all around. Tequila's explanation as to why the fighter's a viable defender is a good one. My group never bothered to get any 4E splatbooks because we lost interest in 4E shortly after trying it for a while (as a GM I kept having to make up tons of rules that weren't included in the game, found it rather irritating that almost everything was just about dealing damage most of the time, such as in the case of things like poisons; and my favorite things about 4E - minions - I've been doing with 3.x for ages so...I guess that's why I'm GMing with a Pathfinder base to my games :P).
i have 4e core
4e PHB2
4E Adventurers Armory
4e Martial Power
4e Arcane Power
4e MM2
4e FR players book (Swordmage, Genasi, and Dark Pact were too hard to miss. being a fan of the duskblade, elemantals, darkness, drow, and fey. lolimental genasi swordmage from thay FTW.)
the setting sourcebooks, introduced backgrounds, backgrounds often offered a bonus to a skill, the ability to train in a skill as if it were a class skill, or completely Reduce your Mad.
a Swordmage from Thay got to use Int for HP/Healing surges.
so i had a fire Genasi Swordmage from thay with
18 Int
18 Str
8 Con
10 Dex
9 Wis
14 Cha
who started with like 33 HP and like 12 healing surges and wielded a Jian (AKA longsword) with the strength Aegis. she was made of anthropomorphic flame and had a crazy high AC and Reflex of 19 each, a fortitude of 14 and a will of 12.
at 1st level, she could teleport into melee range against a marked foe as an immediate and swing at +7 for 1d8+8 and her melee range AoE at wills also did 1d8+4 plus riders. at +7 to hit. and she could mark multiple foes.
so any enemy within 10 squares that was marked, she could teleport into melee and strike for 1d8+8 as an immediate interrupt.
Also, none of the things you mentioned about fighters were true at 4E launch in Core. Fighters in core 4E do not strikers make. They have pretty consistent damage but they can't even dual wield. Rangers destroy them in striker damage. Come and get it didn't even exist, unless it's not listed as that name in the manual.
At core, fighters were able to attact agaist marked creatures that shift. That includes the 5' step, and shift powers. That AO doesnt stop the marked critter, but the fact you attact is a detterrent by itself. Paladins can't attack creatures that shift beyond him, at all.
In adition, he can make a (bonused) AO against creatures that moves past him (not shift, but move). He stop those in their tracks. The paladin can AO those too, but doesnt stop movement.
Also fighters got striker level powers right from core. Rain of Blows allow him to strike 3 times in the same turn to the same monster, which often means insta-death with any half-decent fighter. Sure the ranger can outdamage him, but he does comparable damage to the rogue and warlock. It's an encounter power (that you get as soon as lvl 3) combined with the dayly that Buffs you and an action point, it can decimate most bosses too.
CoMe and get it is a 7th level encounter power.
Ah, thank you Jeraa. I stand corrected. I overlooked it and the improved version mentioned doesn't share a name but is a 23rd level encounter power called Warrior's Urging. XD
Still, it's not as awesome as was described. It's a burst 3 that requires enemies to shift 2 spaces towards you, then you get a burst 1 attack against anyone who happens to be in melee then. But since you're limited to 1 immediate action each turn they can just shift away from you on their turn if they want to. Or if you just drew a ton of enemies towards you they all likely have combat advantage so I guess that's good somehow in a "you're not attacking my ranger" sense. *ponders*
It does remove enemies that are already threatening the squishies, allowing them to move freely in their turn. The movement can't miss, and you can place yourself in position to move them to Zones of Death (clouds, walls, and other damaging stuff). It's THE tanking power. It plays much better that it reads.