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So, the Klar, is listed as an One-handed weapon, in the weapon entry.
In the description, however, it states that "A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes. A metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes."
Now, Light Shields, are also light weapons.
So, which is it?
What exactly do they count as a Spiked Light Shield for?
Feats? Class abilities? Two-weapon Fighting penalties? Enchantments?
Do they count as both a light, and one-handed weapon?
Generally text prevails over tables. Going by that, I would say a klar should be considered a light weapon the same as a light spiked wooden/metal shield is.
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Look in Player's companion: Varisia. That book has use of Klar and Earthbreaker together as a feat, and the Klar counts as a light weapon for two-weapon fighting in that feat.
Thunder and Fang (Combat)
You have mastered the ancient Shoanti Thunder and Fang fighting style, allowing you to fight with increased effectiveness when wielding an earth breaker and klar.Prerequisite: Str 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (earth breaker), Weapon Focus (klar)
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, preventing the use of a klar in one hand without imposing penalties for using the earth breaker one-handed. A klar can be used either as a one-handed weapon or a shield; it does not grant a bonus to AC during rounds in which it is used as a weapon.
Look in Player's companion: Varisia. That book has use of Klar and Earthbreaker together as a feat, and the Klar counts as a light weapon for two-weapon fighting in that feat.
Thunder and Fang
** spoiler omitted **
That feat also says that without it a klar counts as a one-handed weapon.
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You should look up the thread. It was just posted recently. Putting the Bashing enchantment on a Klar would only increase its damage dice to d8, since a Klar counts as a spiked shield already, which is one step up from a non-spiked shield.
Bashing and Impact would not work together. Bashing is the higher of the two, so you would probably want to go with that, and it's only a +1 armor enchantment, so it's cheaper, too.
I'd imagine you could put Agile on it, though.
BBT: Bashing: Yes
Impact: No. As I said, I would go by text description, and klar is treated as a light weapon, which impact cannot be placed on. Also, impact is a weapon enhancement, not a shield enhancement, so the klar (or spikes) would have had to be enchanted as a weapon anyway.
Agile: Yes, it is a light weapon.
Two handed: No, it is a light weapon, so no extra damage.
Martiln, the problem comes from shield spikes.
"Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack."
The spikes already are causing the shield to do damage 1 size larger. Bashing makes the shield do damage 2 sizes larger. Bashing does not stack with the spikes, as the spikes are their own magical weapon, and not valid for the bashing enchantment. So, with a bashing klar, you have the option of
1)shield bash (with the shield part, using the bashing enchantment) for damage 2 sizes larger, or
2) with the shield spikes part (which might be enchanted as their own magic weapon and have something like keen) for 1 size larger damage.
So, it counts as a light weapon for the purposes of two-weapon fighting penalties, or is a feat required for it?
Because of the text description of the klar, I would say it counts as a light weapon always (just like a light spiked shield). The feat still lets you use a the earthbreaker 1handed along with a klar.
I go with the weapon description primarily over all else for what the weapon is. I'm betting whoever wrote thunder & fang just looked at the table (like most of us do when we aren't dissecting rules) and wrote it as one-handed there. I think thunder and fang is wrong, and the klar description is correct.
DesolateHarmony:
The klar description states it counts as a light wooden shield with spikes, or a light steel shield with spikes. That is the part that disagrees with the table.
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My opinion is that the klar is heavier, and the relation to 'shield with spikes' is an artifact from an older time, when those weren't classified as weapons, really. I believe the klar is a one-handed weapon, and requires the Thunder and Fang feat to be treated as a light weapon for two weapon fighting. I think you can enchant the klar with BBT's enchantments in question.
What else does it count as a Light Spiked Shield for?
Does the Fighter who chooses the Close Weapon Group gain extra damage with it?
If made of a special material, is it priced as a weapon, or shield first?
Fighter choosing close weapon group: Yes, it is treated as a light shield with spikes, both of which are close weapons.
Special material: That ones not clear at all. A spiked shield, you have to buy the shield out of a special material, and the spike addon out of a special material, and they don't even have to be the same material.
For the klar, I'd rule just pay for one (Players choice) and say they are both the same material. But there is no RAW for it.
I haven't seen the thread stating spikes always add to a shield bash. My question then is, if you have a shield with spikes, and enhance the shield as a weapon instead of as a shield, does that improve all bash attacks? What if you then enhance the spikes as a weapon too?
If you could link the thread I would appreciate it.
Also, your analogy is not quite fitting. In the case of animal growth, the wolf actually increased in size.
Spikes say: "increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger"
Bashing says: "A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger"
So, shield is medium sized. Spikes says treat as one larger, one larger than medium is large size. Bashing says treat as 2 larger, 2 larger than medium is huge size. Neither actually increases the shield size itself, and so one is treat as large, one is treat as huge. Take the better effect (huge) and that's it. The shield is always medium sized, and so the effects, while they stack, are redundant.
A better analogy would be your wolf companion with a bite doing 1d8(large). He takes INA(Bite) making it deal damage as if 1 size larger(huge), 2d6. Then you cast strongjaw on it. Strongjaw says as if 2 sizes larger(gargantuan), 3d6. You don't get to jump to 4d6(colossal), because INA(Bite) is 1 size, strongjaw is 2 sizes, but neither actually changes the wolfs size from large.
They do not stack. Click the link I provided above.Where in the Core Rulebook does it say a spiked shield and bashing don't stack? It doesn't, it only says that effects that actually increase a character's size don't stack, as I already stated in my above post. Thanks for reading that thoroughly by the way. Also, your link is just your opinion, there is no actual clarification of the matter at hand contained within it. If you can show me the rule that says "effects that treat a character as x size categories larger do not stack with effects that treat a character as x size larger", then I'll agree with you, and cease from pressing the matter further.
What is medium +1 size? Large.
What is medium +2 sizes? Huge.Spikes don't make the shield large sized, and as such, bashing doesn't increase off them. They stack, but are redundant.
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They do not stack. Click the link I provided above.Where in the Core Rulebook does it say a spiked shield and bashing don't stack? It doesn't, it only says that effects that actually increase a character's size don't stack, as I already stated in my above post. Thanks for reading that thoroughly by the way. Also, your link is just your opinion, there is no actual clarification of the matter at hand contained within it. If you can show me the rule that says "effects that treat a character as x size categories larger do not stack with effects that treat a character as x size larger", then I'll agree with you, and cease from pressing the matter further.
I'm going to bet that you're also the type of person that argues that Lead Blades and Impact stack, too, right?
If you're not willing to listen to reason, then there is nothing else we can say to sway you.
Can you use a Klar, and carry other items in that hand, like a Light Shield?
I would say it is effectively a different name for a light spiked shield until clarification arrives.
Nefreet, that is a better word, yes. They overlap, but because the actual size never increases, they don't stack. Much like a +1 MW weapon also having a +1 enhancement to it. They both provide a +1 bonus, but they overlap, not stack, and so you still only get a +1 to it.
The rules don't say that they don't stack, and they also don't say that 1 effect overlaps the other, so the logical assumption is they both stack.
Medium creature wielding a spiked shield treats it as a large shield.
If this were true, then they would get -2 on the attack roll for it being sized incorrectly. It is still treated as a medium shield, it just happens to get medium+1 size damage.
Medium creature gets bashing on its spiked shield, which was treated as large, is now treated as 2 sizes larger, so large shield is now gargantuan shield.
Shield is still medium. Medium +2 = huge. Huge vs large, take the better effect, you get damage a huge shield.
show me absolute proof that this isn't the case.
That is not how a proof works. You prove a positive, not a negative. Also, we have shown our logic, it is up to you to prove that this is not how it works. Also, you have not addressed my corrected wolf analogy. I'd appreciate if you did. Until you show some reasoning why my position is incorrect, or why yours is correct, beyond "it is", I'm done replying to you.
Until they clarify what exactly a klar is supposed to be, I would say it is always a light weapon, just like a light spiked shield, and therefore no, would not qualify for a bladebound magus' black blade.