yet another ranger animal companion question...sorry

[teribithia9]

Okay-I received access yesterday for my second level ranger/first level fighter to an animal companion that's not on the normal ranger list. I know I could be a beastmaster ranger to get access to this animal, but doing so would really damage the entire concept this character was built around due to the loss of the 6th level bonus feat, so I'm hesitant to do it. I could dip into the maddog barbarian class without completely screwing up my character and this would also give access to the necessary animal as a companion---if the ranger levels stack with other classes that offer animal companions like the core rulebook indicates is supposed to happen. However, my GM told me that in PFS the ruling is that in order for them to stack, you'd have to use the most restrictive list (ie: ranger). I've searched for about half an hour and can't find anywhere in the FAQ or the general discussion boards for PFS that says this. The only thing I could find was from three years ago, from Joshua Frost, and it appears to say the exact opposite (says that if you were a ranger/druid you'd use the full druid list for your possible animal companion choices).

That ruling from Joshua here

Can someone point me to the more current ruling from Mike/Mark/John that says you use the most restrictive list instead? If I could take this option as my animal companion, it would be cool, but I don't want to cheat--so if it's not allowed, I'll just take the non-combat pet option. My search fu is obviously weak today.

Thanks.

[Swiftbrook]

teribithia9 wrote:

However, my GM told me that in PFS the ruling is that in order for them to stack, you'd have to use the most restrictive list (ie: ranger).

Sorry I can't quote you chapter and verse, but your GM is wrong. If you have a 10th level Ranger/1st level Druid you get the entire list of animal companions available to the Druid. Generally when you take another class that opens access to stuff, you get all that access.

(slightly off topic) That said, even though the Ranger allows you to wear any light and medium armor, if you wear a chain shirt, you still lose some Druid abilities. What I'm saying it that it is not always the most favorable or the most restrictive ruling you can fine.

teribithia9 wrote:

Okay-I received access yesterday for my second level ranger/first level fighter to an animal companion that's not on the normal ranger list.

What animal companion did you get access to that's not on the Ranger's list? How did you get access?

-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts

[LazarX]

Just out of curiosity, are we talking about the boon given at the end of the Nesting Swallow trilogy?

If you are, than the Ranger is one the few classes that the campaign gives access to that scenario boon. You won't be able to ride it though, until your effective Druid level is 4.

The classes who can use it thus are...

7th level Ranger, 4th level Cavalier/Samurai, 4th level Druid, 4th level Paladin who's taken the bonded mount option.

[Swiftbrook]

LazarX wrote:

Just out of curiosity, are we talking about the boon given at the end of the Nesting Swallow trilogy?

If you are, than the Ranger is one the few classes that the campaign gives access to that scenario boon. You won't be able to ride it though, until your effective Druid level is 4.

The classes who can use it thus are...

7th level Ranger, 4th level Cavalier/Samurai, 4th level Druid, 4th level Paladin who's taken the bonded mount option.

Not sure what this boon is, but it sounds interesting. Don't forget Boon Companion which increases your effective druid level by four.

[TwilightKnight]

Swiftbrook wrote:

Sorry I can't quote you chapter and verse, but your GM is wrong. If you have a 10th level Ranger/1st level Druid you get the entire list of animal companions available to the Druid. Generally when you take another class that opens access to stuff, you get all that access

And this would require a comment from campaign leadership because I am under the exact opposite understanding. If you have two classes granting animal companions, in order for the levels to stack for the ACs stats, it has to be common to both classes. My search-fu is not finding anything, but I recall this being discussed with cavaliers multi-classing with other companion classes. Of course, I welcome anything definitive indicating I am wrong.

[Swiftbrook]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

And this would require a comment from campaign leadership because I am under the exact opposite understanding. If you have two classes granting animal companions, in order for the levels to stack for the ACs stats, it has to be common to both classes. My search-fu is not finding anything, but I recall this being discussed with cavaliers multi-classing with other companion classes. Of course, I welcome anything definitive indicating I am wrong.

OK, now I feel bad. (Bob's a 5-star and a VC, I'm neither but have been playing for decades). I still think I'm right but I'm going to clarify. I was only talking about Druid type animal companions and stacking. I'm not talking about wizard/sorcerer Familiars, Paladin mounts, Cavalier mounts (I think the Paladin & Cavalier stack, not sure) or the Summonor's thingy. So in my example a combination Druid/Ranger would use the Ranger list and the levels from both classes would stack to determine your effective Druid level. You also get to use the Druids list. A wizard/ranger's could have a familiar and an animal companion, but without a specific feat/chronicle/prestige class, you would have two separate creatures (only one combat in PFS) not one combined.

Please remember that a chronicle sheet that grants you access to something, like a specific animal companion, does not follow the normal rules and is an added boon. It sounds like you have access to a specific animal companion, you just add that animal to the list of what your ranger can take.

Edit: Found It

prd wrote:

Nature Bond (Ex): (snip)

The second option is to form a close bond with an animal companion. A druid may begin play with any of the animals listed in Animal Choices. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures.

Unlike normal animals of its kind, an animal companion's Hit Dice, abilities, skills, and feats advance as the druid advances in level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion. (snip)

[Swiftbrook]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

And this would require a comment from campaign leadership because I am under the exact opposite understanding. If you have two classes granting animal companions, in order for the levels to stack for the ACs stats, it has to be common to both classes. My search-fu is not finding anything, but I recall this being discussed with cavaliers multi-classing with other companion classes. Of course, I welcome anything definitive indicating I am wrong.

OK, I didn't find anything that specifically discounts what you said but I'll give you another case. If I have a Druid/Fighter, by your line of thinking, I wouldn't get an animal companion because the fighter has the more restrictive list (none). Also, if I start off with a Druid and take an Ape as my animal companion, if at 2nd level, I then add a level of Ranger do I lose my Ape? No you can't, it's a class feature. How about when I reach Druid 1/Ranger 4, do I lose the Ape? Again, I believe it's no you don't lose the Ape.

No, the Animal Class feature stacks (as per rules) and the lists stack, you can't just take the most restrictive.

[Caderyn]

The point originally brought up on these forums preventing stacking was that for the features to stack for level they must both provide the same animal companion choice.

So for example I am a druid 1/ranger 4 you would have an Ape 1 and a ranger animal companion with effective druid level 1, or a ranger animal companion with effective druid level 2.

The reasoning was because all mounts and animal companions are listed as stacking otherwise, meaning a paladin/cavalier could be riding a Roc, to restrict this for the mount classes, you needed to restrict this for druid/ranger as well so to stack you require the animal to appear on both lists.

I do not particularly agree with this line of thinking, but it is kind of needed to prevent certain animal companions being available to certain classes.

[Paz]

I think this thread is relevant; I've linked to a comment from Mike Brock.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

The closest ruling I've found was from a discussion of a samurai/druid wanting to use an animal on the druid's list as his mount because the ACs "stacked". Mike ruled against this

Basically if you have two lists for the two classes, you're stuck with the creatures that are on both the lists.

LazarX wrote:

Just out of curiosity, are we talking about the boon given at the end of the Nesting Swallow trilogy?

This is an important question that I think has been glanced over. Was it the boon from Quest for Perfection? If so, the wording on that adds it to the ranger list, instead of requiring it to be on the list.

EDIT: Man... shouldn't have spent so much time proofreading... Ninja'd by Paz...

[Swiftbrook]

Paz wrote:

I think this thread is relevant; I've linked to a comment from Mike Brock.

Folks, I think Mike's wrong. Now he's the PFS GM so he is right as per Rule #1.

If a player starts off with a Druid and takes a Tiger, then he adds a level of Samurai, which appears what is happening in the thread referenced, by the rules as written, he doesn't lose his tiger. He has an effective druid level of 2.

Now there is a note that the Samurai's animal companion must be "suitable as a mount". Is a tiger suitable as a mount?

As a personal guess, I'd say that Mike missed the part that the Samurai had taken a level of Druid and was just stating that a pure Samurai can't have a tiger mount. This is pure speculation.

[BigNorseWolf]

He didn't miss the point. He's been asked this on multiple occasions and the answer has always been the same. Using a level of druid to bypass the cavalier or ranger critter choices is an "its iffy, ask your dm" move. The dm for PFS has said "no". Clearly and repeatedly.

[Swiftbrook]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

He didn't miss the point. He's been asked this on multiple occasions and the answer has always been the same. Using a level of druid to bypass the cavalier or ranger critter choices is an "its iffy, ask your dm" move. The dm for PFS has said "no". Clearly and repeatedly.

OK. Let's assume you're right. Now what? A Druid 5/Samurai 1 can't have a tiger? What about a Druid 12/Ranger 2? What exactly are the rules for determining which animal companions are available? If this is how it is going to be ruled, we need specific guidelines in the Guidebook/FAQ/Additional Resources.

Does a Samuai 5/Druid 1 riding a Tiger break the game? Just because I'm a Druid does it mean I can use my Tiger as a mount?

[BigNorseWolf]

Swiftbrook wrote:

OK. Let's assume you're right. Now what? A Druid 5/Samurai 1 can't have a tiger?

He can have a tiger but its at level 5.

Quote:

What about a Druid 12/Ranger 2?

Level 12 tiger.

Quote:

What exactly are the rules for determining which animal companions are available? If this is how it is going to be ruled, we need specific guidelines in the Guidebook/FAQ/Additional Resources.

PFS FAQ

As a ranger, what list of companions can I select my animal companion from?

As a ranger, if you choose an animal companion for your hunter’s bond, you may only select one of the animals listed on page 66 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. No additional companions are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play for Rangers except when granted from another legal source.

As a paladin or cavalier, what mount can I have?

As a paladin, your divine bond mount must be at least one size category larger than you starting at 1st level. If you’re a Medium PC, your mount must be Large. If you’re a Small PC, your mount must be at least Medium. You may only select a mount from the listed mounts on page 63 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook unless another source grants access to additional creature choices. As a cavalier, you may select a mount from those listed on page 33 of the Advanced Player's Guide. No additional mounts are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play except when granted from another legal source. (BNW note, you can expand the list either with scenario boon(s) or the beastmaster ranger archtype)

Quote:

Does a Samuai 5/Druid 1 riding a Tiger break the game? Just because I'm a Druid does it mean I can use my Tiger as a mount?

You can ride it but i don't believe it gains the benefits of being your samurai mount. It definitely doesn't gain the extra levels.

[TwilightKnight]

The specific guidelines are simply that if you want to stack the levels for maximum companion stats, the animal (or other legal creature) must be legal under each list independently. In most cases, this means that a cavalier/druid would be using a horse, pony, or in certain cases a wolf. You might disagree with the ruling from a philosophical perspective, but the rule is what it is.

Can a druid-5/samurai-1 have a tiger? Sure, with the stats appropriate as a companion to a 5th level druid. The PC would not stack the level of samurai because tiger is not an appropriate companion for a samurai.

A druid-12/ranger-2 would be limited like-wise. The PC could not gain any stackable benefit from the 2 levels of ranger unless the selected companion was was also legal for a ranger to take. Of course, in this case, short of a feat like boon companion, it wouldn't matter anyway since the effective druid level for a ranger level two is negative and would therefore have no impact on the animal companion's stats.

[TwilightKnight]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

As a paladin, your divine bond mount must be at least one size category larger than you starting at 1st level

Not to derail or start an argument, but where does this come from? AFAIK, Pathfinder does not have specific rules regarding your mount being one size category larger. That seems to be a mental hold-over from v3.5. The only description in the rules I can find refers to a "suitable mount" which is clearly a vague statement. That could mean capable of supporting your weight or any other mechanical requirements the GM wants to enforce. Has there ever been a definitive designer comment confirming that the intent is for mounts to be size+1?

And before you ask, no I am not trying to create a loophole. I am merely observing that per strict RAW one seems to exist and can/will/has been exploited.

[teribithia9]

No...this is not the boon from nesting swallow. If it was, there wouldn't be an issue, because that boon grants you access to the animal companion itself. I was trying to be vague to avoid spoilers...because I'm afraid if I try a spoiler tag for the first time, I'll screw it up and spoil this for anyone who hasn't played the scenario, but here it goes...

Spoiler:

I'm talking about the owlbear from We Be Goblins Too. Text says that you can raise it as a pet or if you are a member of a class that can have a bear as a companion or mount, you can have the owlbear as your companion or mount.

Core rulebook indicates levels from classes that grant animal companions stack. The link I gave in my op from Joshua indicated that you'd use the most permissive list from among any classes you had that granted animal companions. It's looking like my GM's correct and this has changed (unless someone in authority chimes in and says it hasn't). Was just trying to make sure--no wish to cheat, so will take it as a non-combat just-a-pet instead, I guess. Thanks, all.

[BigNorseWolf]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

As a paladin, your divine bond mount must be at least one size category larger than you starting at 1st level

Not to derail or start an argument, but where does this come from? AFAIK, Pathfinder does not have specific rules regarding your mount being one size category larger.

Its from the PFS FAQ, copy and pasted along with the rest of the paragraph. Note the lack of spelling errors and typos, so you know its not something wrote! :)

Quote:

Has there ever been a definitive designer comment confirming that the intent is for mounts to be size+1?

Dunno. Pony's are still (i think) listed as a suitable mount for dwarves though. That FAQ nixes about the only way to get a character without a strength penalty onto a medium sized mount in the dungeon.

[LazarX]

teribithia9 wrote:

Core rulebook indicates levels from classes that grant animal companions stack. The link I gave in my op from Joshua indicated that you'd use the most permissive list from among any classes you had that granted animal companions. It's looking like my GM's correct and this has changed (unless someone in authority chimes in and says it hasn't). Was just trying to make sure--I missed out on the nesting swallow companion, too, so it's getting to be a kind of annoying trend.
But no wish to cheat, so will take it as a flavor text pet instead.

Having looked at your spoiler the answer is no for your ranger unless said Ranger is of the Beastmaster archetype. The classes don't stack UNLESS the animal you choose is open to both lists. The creation of the Beastmaster archetype at all pretty much clarifies Paizo's intent in it's ruleset.

[teribithia9]

LazarX wrote:

teribithia9 wrote:

Core rulebook indicates levels from classes that grant animal companions stack. The link I gave in my op from Joshua indicated that you'd use the most permissive list from among any classes you had that granted animal companions. It's looking like my GM's correct and this has changed (unless someone in authority chimes in and says it hasn't). Was just trying to make sure--I missed out on the nesting swallow companion, too, so it's getting to be a kind of annoying trend.
But no wish to cheat, so will take it as a flavor text pet instead.

Having looked at your spoiler the answer is no for your ranger unless said Ranger is of the Beastmaster archetype. The classes don't stack UNLESS the animal you choose is open to both lists. The creation of the Beastmaster archetype at all pretty much clarifies Paizo's intent in it's ruleset.

Yep--I figured that my GM was right from the get go--but couldn't actually find a post anywhere to confirm...disappointed but I'll live with it as a cool pet. :)

[Swiftbrook]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

A druid-12/ranger-2 would be limited like-wise.

Arrrrgggggg, I hate giving bad examples.

Having read the spoiler, I now agree with your GM. You need to have access to a specific animal companion to get the benefit of the boon.

Looks like I'm going to be wrong. I hate being wrong. Arrrrggggg!!! The RAW say they stack, there is no restrictions in the RAW. I see the corner cases, but I don't think the restriction should be in play. A level of druid should open up the entire druid animal companion list with the appropriate levels stacking.

[Hzardus]

edit:

[BigNorseWolf]

Hzardus,

This entire thread has been why that won't work in pfs.

[Hzardus]

the 1 level of druid will open it up to him to be able to take it...but it will only be equal to the level of druid...yay self corrections

[Don Walker]

Swiftbrook wrote:

Bob Jonquet wrote:

A druid-12/ranger-2 would be limited like-wise.

Arrrrgggggg, I hate giving bad examples.

Having read the spoiler, I now agree with your GM. You need to have access to a specific animal companion to get the benefit of the boon.

Looks like I'm going to be wrong. I hate being wrong. Arrrrggggg!!! The RAW say they stack, there is no restrictions in the RAW. I see the corner cases, but I don't think the restriction should be in play. A level of druid should open up the entire druid animal companion list with the appropriate levels stacking.

I believe you are missing a key point here.

The levels of animal companion stack from different classes, but only for animals that are on both lists.

Levels of regular Ranger do not grant access to Bear. So while you could have a Wolf using levels from both Ranger and Druid - you do not get to add your Ranger AC levels to a Druid's Bear companion.

The text "if a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities" does not mean you get to merge the AC lists for each class. You have to have access on both lists for the levels to stack for "statistics and abilities" for that AC.

Combine that with Mike Brock's rulings as the campaign GM and you get the RAW.