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The downtime rules for spell research state the following:
Pay 100 gp × the spell's level for research costs and rare ingredients. You may spend Goods or Magic toward this cost.
Determine the total days of progress required to complete the research, which is 7 × the spell level.
Determine the spell research DC, which is 10 + twice the spell's level.
Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can't take 10 on these checks. You may spend Magic to modify a check result, with 1 point of Magic adding 2 to your total (maximum +10). If both checks succeed, you make 1 day's progress toward completing the spell. When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed, the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known.
I bolded two sections since those are the most relevant to my questions:
When a spontaneous caster with a limited spell list (like a bard, oracle, or a sorcerer) completes research on a new spell and adds that spell to his list of spells known, does that spell come in addition to his normal spell list limitations, or is the spell counted as part of his total amount of "spells known"?
Ie a third level sorcerer knows three 1st level spells (we are going to ignore bloodlines for simplicity). He spends a week and 700 gold successfully researching a new 1st level spell. Does he now have four 1st level spells known, or does the new spell "take up the slot" of one of his old ones?
If it's the latter, how do we go about reshuffling the spell list of the caster? Can he swap out an old spell of the same level for the newly researched spell immediately? Does he have to wait until he goes up a level and takes the newly researched spell as his new spell known?
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
It says you learn you it when you complete it, so that would make it bypass the normal limit.
I see where you're coming from, but "list of spells known" could also be interpreted as meaning clerics, paladins, rangers, and other classes that do not have a limitation on spells known, but do not use spellbooks.
There's a line in the CRB that troubles me in this context, it states the following:
A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time she attains a new level in her class and never gains spells any other way.
I realize that the Ultimate Campaign is newer and that the rules it contains could trump the CRB. However Ucmp never actually states that spontaneous casters can even do spell research, while providing specific mention of the Alchemist and goes into some detail to explain how alchemists would use Craft: alchemy and KN: Nature instead of Spellcraft and KN: Arcana. That they'd outline how alchemists work but not mention any of the spontaneous classes seems like a red flag.
I see where you're coming from, but "list of spells known" could also be interpreted as meaning clerics, paladins, rangers, and other classes that do not have a limitation on spells known, but do not use spellbooks.
There's a line in the CRB that troubles me in this context, it states the following:
A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time she attains a new level in her class and never gains spells any other way.I realize that the Ultimate Campaign is newer and that the rules it contains could trump the CRB. However Ucmp never actually states that spontaneous casters can even do spell research, while providing specific mention of the Alchemist and goes into some detail to explain how alchemists would use Craft: alchemy and KN: Nature instead of Spellcraft and KN: Arcana. That they'd outline how alchemists work but not mention any of the spontaneous classes seems like a red flag.
The CRB ONLY mentions the wizard being able to research spells. Ultimate Campaign now opens that up to sorcerers and bards. I would say the newer book takes priority.
This is what the CRB says.
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
The new book also says " is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known."
Who else would that bolded area apply to?
Actually the CRB also allows divine spellcasters to research spells, they get their own listing later in the book under divine spells. However I'm struggling to find the line in Ucamp that opens up spell research to bards and sorcerers (or oracles or summoners). Can you quote that sentence, or give me a page number?
As for spells known... Like I said, there are many classes that have a list of spells known but doesn't use spell books. Clerics, Druids, rangers and paladins would qualify.
I started this thread off wondering if spontaneous casters can add to their list of known spells, but now I'm wondering if they can even research new spells in the first place.
The Core Rulebook allows you to perform spell research, either to create a new spell or learn an existing spell from another source. In the downtime system, the steps for spell research each day are as follows.
That sentence makes me think that the original class limitations are still in place as regards to what classes can perform independent research and that alchemists are specifically mentioned to be included. But then it seems odd to leave out the witch... Is there grounds for a FAQ here or am I putting too much thought into this?
I know that(about divine caster), but I was speaking of arcane casters. I said I think it is open to the sorcerer because the the UC says spellbook OR "spells known".
The "OR" means they are not referring to wizards. The witch is like the wizard, but its familar acts like a spell book. Other than the oracle divine casters don't have spells known. They just have spells they get access to.
So while the bard and sorcerer are not called out specifically spells known would have to apply to spontaneous caster.
That is why I asked who else could that "or spells known" be applying to.
The rules for researching a new spell are also very different from what the CRB had also. That is another reason why the old rules should not apply.
The alchemist had to be listed seperately because it is not a spellcaster.
For the record I want to agree with you, I think the spontaneous casters should be able to expand their spell if they invest resources in it.
That having been said, I still have some doubts because of the way those rules are written.
For the record I want to agree with you, I think the spontaneous casters should be able to expand their spell if they invest resources in it.
That having been said, I still have some doubts because of the way those rules are written.
If the only classes with "spells known" that don't have spell books are spontaneous casters it has to be for them.
There is not even another option that I know of.
edit:If you are the GM then go with the most likely ruling. If you are not the GM present my logic to him and see what he says.
I take these two sentences from the CRB (especially the bolded part of the latter quote) to mean that spontaneous casters can research new spells, but they can't use those spells until they spend a slot of spells known on them.
With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring.
These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
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Before Ultimate campaign the idea was that you could add the newly created spell to your list of know spells the first time you had the chance to add a spell of the appropriate level (it was in a comment by JJ, I think, and before that in 3.x in a article in Dragon).
I don't think that has changed.
If you add the spell to your list simply spending money you have a problem with WBL: how it is counted?
At the research price? Nothing at all and your GM should award you extra money to compensate for the spent money? Some other way?
compare the cost of spell research with that of the Pages of spell knowledge:
| |Page of Spell Knowledge| |Spell research |
| 1st-level ! 1,000 gp | | 700 gp |
| 2nd-level ! 4,000 gp | 1.400 gp |
| 3rd-level ! 9,000 gp | 2.100 gp |
| 4th-level ! 16,000 gp | 2.800 gp |
| 5th-level ! 25,000 gp | 3.500 gp |
| 6th-level ! 36,000 gp | 4.200 gp |
| 7th-level ! 49,000 gp | 4.900 gp |
| 8th-level ! 64,000 gp | 5.600 gp |
| 9th-level ! 81,000 gp | 6.300 gp |
From level 7 onward spell research is even as fast or faster than crafting a magic item at normal speed.
If I were gm I'd let them retrain a spell known at the same time the sorcerer was researching.
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.It says you learn you it when you complete it, so that would make it bypass the normal limit.The text you're quoting refers to Wizards.
Spontaneous casters can not use research to exceed their spells known. It's not part of their nature. At the most, they can research a spell to REPLACE one of their known spells.
If you don't want a cap on the spells you know.... play a wizard.
I already said it refers to wizards, and I was quoting it as a comparison to ultimate campaign.
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Let me point out that this isn't actually unbalanced, despite the fact that you think it might be.
Assuming you succeed on every necessary roll (which is nearly impossible for a spontaneous caster, since they all rely on Charisma or Wisdom, save the Sage bloodline), then the costs for adding a spell known to your collection are:
1st - 700 gp
2nd - 2,800 gp
3rd - 6,300 gp
4th - 11,200 gp
5th - 17,500 gp
6th - 25,200 gp
7th - 34,300 gp
8th - 44,800 gp
9th - 56,700 gp
Meanwhile, Pages of Spell Knowledge also add spells known and cost the following to make:
1st - 500 gp
2nd - 2,000 gp
3rd - 4,500 gp
4th - 8,000 gp
5th - 12,500 gp
6th - 18,000 gp
7th - 24,000 gp
8th - 32,000 gp
9th - 40,500 gp
And on top of that, Pages of Spell Knowledge only require one check to make total, and you can take 10.
Ok, you might argue that it costs a feat (Craft Wondrous Item) to do that and spell research costs no feat. Ok, that's fine, then let's take a look at the actual chances to research and we'll see how much money it's really going to cost you.
A typical level 3 Sorcerer will have a 10 Intelligence, and thus a +6 bonus to these checks (3 ranks + 3 for being a class skill), and that eats up both their skill points, so I hope they're human. In order to research a level 1 spell, the check DCs are 12 each, meaning you have to roll a 6.
When you figure the math out fully, each day, you have the following chances:
Lose 2 days: .25%
Lose 1 day: 9.75%
Make no progress: 33.75%
Gain 1 day of progress: 56.25%
That means you're making .46 days of progress on each roll, so you're actually going to need 16 days, which means you're spending 1600gp to learn that first level spell, not 700, making it more expensive than just buying a Page of Spell Knowledge from a merchant.
In general, for every two levels, your check will go up two, as will the DC (because you'll get a new spell level to research), so you'll always be making .46 days of progress per actual day. Extrapolating that, the real costs of this research is:
1st - 1,600 gp
2nd - 6,200 gp
3rd - 13,800 gp
4th - 24,400 gp
5th - 38,500 gp
6th - 55,200 gp
7th - 74,900 gp
8th - 97,600 gp
9th - 123,300 gp
Ok, those costs get really out of hand, really fast. It's probably better to just spend 3 Magic and get a +6 to each roll so you can't fail, right? Well, in an ideal world, that'll cost 150 gp extra (since Magic costs 50gp each if you earn it) per day. That's an extra 1050 per spell level for a final cost of:
1st - 1,750 gp
2nd - 4,900 gp
3rd - 6,650 gp
4th - 15,400 gp
5th - 22,750 gp
6th - 31,500 gp
7th - 41,650 gp
8th - 53,200 gp
9th - 66,150 gp
So, yes, you can get a better deal from spell research than you can from Pages of Spell Knowledge, if and only if, you're not willing to spend a feat on Craft Wondrous Item, but you do have nigh-infinite days and enough skill points to get a capital generating check high enough to be reliable in addition to Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana.
The only character for which this is a significant rule-breaking benefit is a Sage Sorcerer, and even then, the time required is staggering.
The new book also says " is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known."
Who else would that bolded area apply to?
How about witches? They are prepared arcane spell casters who do not automatically know all spells on their class spell lists, have no absolute limits as to how many spells they can learn, and do not have spell books (as they store their known spells in their familiars rather than in spell books).
I should probably point out that with a +4 bonus from a magical repository and a +2 bonus from a commoner using the Aid Another bonus you're now at a +12 on level 1. Since the DC is 12 and scales perfectly with your skill rank bonus... Well, it's not tremendously hard to make that check impossible to fail. Still, it's a good counterpoint to the spell pages.
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The line from the CRB saying sorcerers NEVER gain more spells was already outdated by the time they published the Expanded Arcana feat;
Expanded Arcana
Your research has revealed new spells.
Prerequisites: Caster level 1st, see Special.
Benefit: Add one spell from your class's spell list to your list of spells known. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new level in your class. You may instead add two spells from your class's spell list to your list of spells known, but both of these spells must be at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast in that class. Once made, these choices cannot be changed.
Special: You can only take this feat if you possess levels in a class whose spellcasting relies on a limited list of spells known, such as the bard, oracle, and sorcerer.
You can gain Expanded Arcana multiple times.
book 1: "You can never...."
book 2: "Except ..."
The new book also says " is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known."
Who else would that bolded area apply to?
How about witches? They are prepared arcane spell casters who do not automatically know all spells on their class spell lists, have no absolute limits as to how many spells they can learn, and do not have spell books (as they store their known spells in their familiars rather than in spell books).
Witches work just like wizards do. Their "spellbook" is also their familiar, and by RAW Witches nor wizards have "spells known", even though they know spells. That is covered in another thread that is active.
The line from the CRB saying sorcerers NEVER gain more spells was already outdated by the time they published the Expanded Arcana feat;
Expanded Arcana
Your research has revealed new spells.
Prerequisites: Caster level 1st, see Special.
Benefit: Add one spell from your class's spell list to your list of spells known. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new level in your class. You may instead add two spells from your class's spell list to your list of spells known, but both of these spells must be at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast in that class. Once made, these choices cannot be changed.
Special: You can only take this feat if you possess levels in a class whose spellcasting relies on a limited list of spells known, such as the bard, oracle, and sorcerer.
You can gain Expanded Arcana multiple times.
book 1: "You can never...."
book 2: "Except ..."
This is a good point. The CRB rule is a general rule, and they will always be trumped by new rules, and rules exceptions such as feats.
So it seems that the text means sorcerers can now learn spells in downtime?
That is how I am reading it. The term "Spells known" is specific to spontaneous casters.
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Hmm. I like it actually; it'll give sorcerers a nice little boost. I mean, the idea was always that they'd have fewer spells but more casting per day; but they have a hard time accelerating past the spells-per-day of a specialist wizard because wizards gain new spells a level earlier.
So instead of shifting the sorcerer spells-per-day, they've loosened up the spells-known. Interesting.
Suddenly sorcerers actually have a real reason to attend magic academies or to have students. And they can make progress if they have a long time to refine their arts. That's a significant change. Very interesting.
Hmm. I like it actually; it'll give sorcerers a nice little boost. I mean, the idea was always that they'd have fewer spells but more casting per day; but they have a hard time accelerating past the spells-per-day of a specialist wizard because wizards gain new spells a level earlier.
So instead of shifting the sorcerer spells-per-day, they've loosened up the spells-known. Interesting.
Suddenly sorcerers actually have a real reason to attend magic academies or to have students. And they can make progress if they have a long time to refine their arts. That's a significant change. Very interesting.
Personally I like this change as well, but it is a very significant change to the traditional representation (and power level) of the spontaneous casters - but I'm not entirely sure if it's an intended change from Paizo. it seems strange that they'd add a potentially more or less unlimited list of spells known to a spontaneous caster (if he has enough downtime and gold) purely from a single line about "spells known".
If you look at the previously quoted expanded arcana feat it's very specific in spelling out how the new spells are added to your spell list in addition to your normal limitation etc. The spell research rules don't have anything like that.
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The Core Rulebook allows you to perform spell research, either to create a new spell or learn an existing spell from another source. In the downtime system, the steps for spell research each day are as follows.
1. Pay 100 gp × the spell’s level for research costs and rare ingredients. You may spend Goods or Magic toward this cost.
2. Determine the total days of progress required to complete the research, which is 7 × the spell level.
3. Determine the spell research DC, which is 10 + twice the spell’s level.
4. Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can’t take 10 on these checks. You may spend Magic to modify a check result, with 1 point of Magic adding 2 to your total (maximum +10). If both checks succeed, you make 1 day’s progress toward completing the spell. When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed, the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known.
That "each day" is a bit weird when paired with how point 2. and 4. are written, but it is possible that the cost of doing research is 100 gp * spell level * day of research. I would have preferred a clearer text, but is probably the right interpretation.
Seem a bit high seeing as buying an existing spell has an almost negligible cost for a wizard or witch.- * -
Let's look how the "impossible DC" check can be ameliorated.
If we try to develop a new spell of the highest level our character can cast the target is essentially 10+character level for sorcerers and oracles (12 and not 11 at level 1, but it will be very difficult to have the founds to do magical research at that level). Lower than that for Inquisitors and summoners.
Knowledge (arcana) is a class skill for Sorcerers and Summoners, Knowledge (religion) is a class skill for Oracles and Inquisitors.
for all four spellcraft is a class skill.
Then we have this room:
MAGICAL REPOSITORY
Earnings gp, Influence, or Magic +12
Benefit bonus on Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, and spell research checks
Create 9 Goods, 3 Influence, 8 Labor, 3 Magic (730 gp); Time 20 days
Size 4–12 squares
Upgrades From Book Repository
A Magical Repository is similar to a Book Repository, but specific to the study of the arcane arts. It contains shelves of books, comfortable chairs, and tables for studying and for scribing notes and scrolls. If you construct this room from scratch, it grants someone who studies there for 1 hour a +3 bonus on a Knowledge (arcana) check to answer a question. If you upgrade a Book Repository into this room, you either keep the original Book Repository’s bonus on Knowledge checks or change its skill to Knowledge (arcana). An hour of study in this room also grants a +3 bonus on Spellcraft checks. The room grants an additional +1 bonus on Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks for spell research (see Research a Spell on page 86) and crafting magic items.
So, with this room we get a +4 to spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) or +3 in Knowledge (religion) [to get it you start with a book repository giving the bonus to Knowledge (religion)] .
So adding that to our class skill and taking 1 skill point level in the appropriate skills we have a total bonus of level+7 for summoners and sorcerers in both skills while oracles and inquisitors will have level+6 in Knowledge (religion).
So to be sure to make our roll with a 1 on the dice we need the above mentioned room and a item giving a +2 to spellcraft and knowledge (arcana) or a +2 to spellcraft and a +3 to Knowledge (religion).
Don't seem particularly hard.
As a note to the DC calculators, I see no reason not to take 10
"4. Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can’t take 10 on these checks." (emphasis mine)
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The specific rules about spell research say that you can't take 10 on that check:
4. Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can’t take 10 on these checks. You may spend Magic to modify a check result, with 1 point of Magic adding 2 to your total (maximum +10). If both checks succeed, you make 1 day’s progress toward completing the spell. When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed, the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known.
A possible explanation of that is that magical experimentation is sufficiently dangerous that you count as distracted while doing it.
You always count as threatened when dealing with the academic community or grant providers.
I wonder to you could get a patron yo give you a grant to fund your research?
It seems unlikely that it was ever intended to allow Sorcerers or Bards to expand the number of spells known beyond what the class description indicates outside of taking the Expanded Arcana feat. As a GM I would allow a character to research "new and unusual spells" (ones not listed on the normal wizard/sorcerer spell list) and add them to their spells known at next level up or replace a spell known on their list (which might be overly generous). No matter what it should count against the number of spells known that a bard or sorcerer can have.
It seems unlikely that it was ever intended to allow Sorcerers or Bards to expand the number of spells known beyond what the class description indicates outside of taking the Expanded Arcana feat. As a GM I would allow a character to research "new and unusual spells" (ones not listed on the normal wizard/sorcerer spell list) and add them to their spells known at next level up or replace a spell known on their list (which might be overly generous). No matter what it should count against the number of spells known that a bard or sorcerer can have.
They can do it anyway with a spell page. I really don't see the issue, and like I said what is "spells known" referring to, if not to spontaneous casters since they are the only ones with the verbage in their descriptions.
Spell pages can be taken, destroyed, etc. They have access to the spell as long as they have the object, but they could loose it as well.
I would ask for a clarification of what spells known is supposed to mean, because I recall another active thread on this forum about wizards and spells known versus spell recorded in their spell book. So, perhaps its just poor writing.
Besides, I think the intention could be to research spells that don't exist like an electric only version of fireball that functions mechanically the same except dealing different elemental damage. SO you can research that spell and have Fireball and Lightning Ball as spells known for a sorcerer. That spell should still count against the spells you know. I think researching spell is meant specifically for spells not on the wizard/sorcerer list that are meant to be approved by the DM, or spells listed specially in adventure paths or similar sources.
I was in that other thread, and magic items are hardly every destroyed. The spell also took up time and money. It also cost more than spell pages so I see no reason for it not to work.
I would think researching spell fits more of the example of a cold fireball. Most GM's just allow official spells.
I was in that other thread, and magic items are hardly every destroyed. The spell also took up time and money. It also cost more than spell pages so I see no reason for it not to work.
I would think researching spell fits more of the example of a cold fireball. Most GM's just allow official spells.
I believe one idea here is for sorcerers to research spells that already exist on their spell list in order to sidestep their spells known limitations.
And I did some math on the topic of spell pages - Pages are universally more expensive than using the research rules to add the spell to your list, even if you are using a crafting feat to make the spell pages yourself at half price.
The following lists in order spell level, research cost, research cost using Capital, spell page cost, crafted spell page cost, spell page crafting time, and research time. I'm sure there's a neat way to post these tables, but I can't for the life of me figure out that kind of formatting on Paizo's forums so I'll just spoiler it.
1 700 350 1000 500 1 7
2 2800 1400 4000 2000 4 14
3 6300 3150 9000 4500 9 21
4 11200 5600 16000 8000 16 28
5 17500 8750 25000 12500 25 35
6 25200 12600 36000 18000 36 42
7 34300 17150 49000 24500 49 49
8 44800 22400 64000 32000 64 56
9 56700 28350 81000 40500 81 63
I am sure someone else's math was listed that showed the opposite. I am trying to avoid doing my own math...sigh
My math showed the opposite, but theirs involves spending only Magical capital on the research, rather than using any money, which, if all the Capital was earned, will halve the cost of research (at least before the Capital needed to make the check auto-succeed).
And I did some math on the topic of spell pages - Pages are universally more expensive than using the research rules to add the spell to your list, even if you are using a crafting feat to make the spell pages yourself at half price.
Only if you can't fail on the research check, and only if you have nearly infinite time.
Gaining Capital takes time--a lot of time. You need a pretty expansive business with lots of rooms to consistently make enough Capital, and even then, you're still looking at significantly increasing the time required.
Do you realize the staggeringly huge amount of time required for this? For example, you need to spend 63 Magical capital to pay for a 3rd level spell. Even if you can consistently nail a 30 on your checks, that's 21 more days--double the time if you succeed on all your checks. 42 days just to get a 3rd level spell known? That's worth it to you? Really? Unless your GM gives you free leeway to say, "I did all this in my backstory" for a game that starts at mid level already, I just don't see this happening in your typical games. You can at least make a magic item while you're adventuring, for example. You can't do downtime activities while adventuring, especially not with the Magical Repository Bonus you guys are assuming to make it auto-succeed.
I think the end result is that this is all pretty fair and equitable with the rules as they currently stand. You spend a feat and get the ability to add spells while adventuring for potentially slightly more money (including cross-class spells, since you can UMD them and take 10 on the Spellcraft roll when ignoring the spell requirements), or you spend a crap-ton of start-up costs to get a Capital generating business running with a Magical Repository and a magic item or two with spellcraft/knowledge bonuses, blow most/all of your Sorcerer's skill ranks on Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) and spend multiple months not adventuring to save about 50% on the final cost.
The most likely reason why my numbers don't line up with MPLindustries' revised numbers is because she started off assuming perfect success (as did I) and then changed hers to account for a 40% failure rate. Personally I didn't include the failure rate, since I find it is quite easy to make your Spellcraft and KN: Arcana checks impossible to fail, as was outlined in my previous post as well as Diego's.
I'm reasonably sure I didn't make any mistakes in the actual math, the formula for research is fairly simple - (100 times spell level) multiplied by (number of weeks needed times 7).
IE a 3rd level spell would be (100*3) * (3*7) = 300 * 21 = 6300 GP, or half that if the researcher is using Magic Capital, 3150 gp.
A 7th level spell would be (100*7) * (7*7) = 700 * 49 = 34 300 GP, or half that if the researcher is using Magic Capital, 17150 gp.
If you double check those two examples with the spreadsheet I posted above, that checks out.
Finally, the cost and craft cost of Spell Pages is easily available on PFSRD.
If you're still unsure I'd be happy to send you an invite to the document itself if you PM me your email.
My math showed the opposite, but theirs involves spending only Magical capital on the research, rather than using any money, which, if all the Capital was earned, will halve the cost of research (at least before the Capital needed to make the check auto-succeed).
Only if you can't fail on the research check, and only if you have nearly infinite time.
Gaining Capital takes time--a lot of time. You need a pretty expansive business with lots of rooms to consistently make enough Capital, and even then, you're still looking at significantly increasing the time required.
Do you realize the staggeringly huge amount of time required for this? For example, you need to spend 63 Magical capital to pay for a 3rd level spell. Even if you can consistently nail a 30 on your checks, that's 21 more days--double the time if you succeed on all your checks. 42 days just to get a 3rd level spell known? That's worth it to you? Really? Unless your GM gives you free leeway to say, "I did all this in my backstory" for a game that starts at mid level already, I just don't see this happening in your typical games. You can at least make a magic item while you're adventuring, for example. You can't do downtime activities while adventuring, especially not with the Magical Repository Bonus you guys are assuming to make it auto-succeed.
I think the end result is that this is all pretty fair and equitable with the rules as they currently stand. You spend a feat and get the ability to add spells while adventuring for potentially slightly more money (including cross-class spells, since you can UMD them and take 10 on the Spellcraft roll when ignoring the spell requirements), or you spend a crap-ton of start-up costs to get a Capital generating business running with a...
Actually my math shows both the cost of producing research with and without the use of Capital, as well as the cost of buying or crafting Spell Pages. Spending money on research is cheaper than buying spell pages, and researching with Capital is cheaper than crafting your own spell pages. Conversely crafting spell pages is cheaper than doing research if you use no Capital but rely entirely on gold expenses. I did assume a 100% success rate, but it's been outlined several times in this thread that the DC on research is trivially easy. A magical repository and a 1st level commoner taking 10 is enough to make an int 10 sorcerer with his ranks in SC and Kn: Arcana pass his exam 100% of the time.
Capital does indeed take longer to accumulate, though this is a process that can be controlled by a manager while you are doing the research. You mentioned that it would take 21 days to create enough Magic Capital to afford a 3rd level spell being researched? As it happens, a 3rd level spell takes 21 days to research.
As for the time involved - yes, I factored that in as well (though I didn't list it to make the spreadsheet look more manageable). Up to 7th level spell pages are faster to make than research, with there being a significant gap at level 1 (1 day opposed to 7) that gradually gets eaten up as the spells go up in level. At 7th level they break even, and 8th or 9th level spell pages take longer to craft than the time involved to do the research itself.
So crafting is significantly faster at the very low levels, faster at the low-medium levels, and breaks even at about lvl 14. On the flip side you have to spend a feat on the crafting itself - I'd call that a wash.
did assume a 100% success rate, but it's been outlined several times in this thread that the DC on research is trivially easy. A magical repository and a 1st level commoner taking 10 is enough to make an int 10 sorcerer with his ranks in SC and Kn: Arcana pass his exam 100% of the time.It's also been pointed out that you can't take 10
4. Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can’t take 10 on these checks.Also, even in general
You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.
Huh, I never noticed that you couldn't take 10 on Aid Another. Fair enough, replace the commoner assisting you with a Masterwork Tool keyed to Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana).
My math didn't assume that the sorcerer was taking 10 on the research check itself, only that his accumulated Spellcraft+Knowledge bonuses were high enough that he would still succeed at the check if he rolled a 1.
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Hmm. I like it actually; it'll give sorcerers a nice little boost. I mean, the idea was always that they'd have fewer spells but more casting per day; but they have a hard time accelerating past the spells-per-day of a specialist wizard because wizards gain new spells a level earlier.
So instead of shifting the sorcerer spells-per-day, they've loosened up the spells-known. Interesting.
Suddenly sorcerers actually have a real reason to attend magic academies or to have students. And they can make progress if they have a long time to refine their arts. That's a significant change. Very interesting.
Personally I like this change as well, but it is a very significant change to the traditional representation (and power level) of the spontaneous casters - but I'm not entirely sure if it's an intended change from Paizo. it seems strange that they'd add a potentially more or less unlimited list of spells known to a spontaneous caster (if he has enough downtime and gold) purely from a single line about "spells known".
If you look at the previously quoted expanded arcana feat it's very specific in spelling out how the new spells are added to your spell list in addition to your normal limitation etc. The spell research rules don't have anything like that.
Well, that's a strong point. Maybe this should be answered by an FAQ? Changing a fundamental assumption of how caster classes work deserves an explicit comment, I'd say.
And indeed, the consequences are significant; while people here in the thread are trying to prove that it's a slow process, what does that matter to elven (or even *shudder* dwarven) sorcerers?
In a different thread it was pointed out that while the downtime would be crippling for an ongoing AP and most home games (unless the GM runs games that run over years), it is a minimal issue for PCs that are made above lvl 1 and not at all an issue for NPCs and monsters that have large amounts of time available to them (like elves, dragons, liches).
Most likely the custom spells will be made in game, so you can't just assume they are freebies.
Most likely the custom spells will be made in game, so you can't just assume they are freebies.
I'm confused, who said the spells were freebies?
Most likely the custom spells will be made in game, so you can't just assume they are freebies.I'm confused, who said the spells were freebies?
If they get made before the game starts it is close enough since the restrictions are time and money. Unlike magic items there is no feat required so I doubt the GM will just say "go take these spells known for nothing other than some gold".