after reading through a ton of posts it is still not clear to me how this feat works, and considering how vague the wording it seems crazy to me there isn't a good clarification in the FAQ.
it would be nice to actually see something official... my wiz is about to hit lvl 5 next game (society play). I don't have feats to waste on things that aren't helpful and this influences what other meta I would take as well.
in short, I really need to know how this works. officially.
Well it's probably a feat that is better for Sorcerers and to put it simply it increases the level the spell is cast as. So were you to 'Heighten' a Sleep spell it would be a say, 2nd level spell of exactly the same description.
How is this useful?
Some spells like Minor Globe of Invulnerability protect against lower level spells and this allows you to bypass them with say, Magic Missile by making it a 4th level spell. Likewise some spell 'oppositions' such as darkness vs. light, the level of the spell matters to see which spell comes out on top.
For a Sorcerer this means tactical possibilities, for a Wizard it's damn near impossible to predict and I would probably say, near useless.
If you are built around use of a certain spell, heighten allows you to raise the associated DC's (and bypass globes) by using a higher level spell slot. That's pretty much it's purpose IMO.
Could you give an example of what part of the feat confuses you?
i'm honestly not sure how anyone who has read the feat and thought about it for a minute can see it as clearly stated.
if you take the feat as stated in the most literal sense then it would seem that you could apply heighten after any other meta and get a dc boost equal to the applied meta essentially for free.
while I don't personally think this literal interpretation is overpowered, the boost is a bit more than you'd normally expect from a feat.
on the other hand, if you're like me and have a background in 3.x then you'd have a sort of pre-conceived notion of it only boosting effective level/dc on a 1-to-1 basis with the increase in levels that you get from heighten alone. personally I think this is a bit underpowered.
in any case, it seems clear to me (and many others), that it is not clear.
Well it's probably a feat that is better for Sorcerers and to put it simply it increases the level the spell is cast as. So were you to 'Heighten' a Sleep spell it would be a say, 2nd level spell of exactly the same description.
For a Sorcerer this means tactical possibilities, for a Wizard it's damn near impossible to predict and I would probably say, near useless.
this example is actually a really strong argument for heighten being used in the most literal way described in the feat text.
Well it's probably a feat that is better for Sorcerers and to put it simply it increases the level the spell is cast as. So were you to 'Heighten' a Sleep spell it would be a say, 2nd level spell of exactly the same description.
For a Sorcerer this means tactical possibilities, for a Wizard it's damn near impossible to predict and I would probably say, near useless.
this example is actually a really strong argument for heighten being used in the most literal way described in the feat text.
Hey, I'm a Sorcerer fan - it works for me with a Kitsune Enchantment specialist.
Well it's probably a feat that is better for Sorcerers and to put it simply it increases the level the spell is cast as. So were you to 'Heighten' a Sleep spell it would be a say, 2nd level spell of exactly the same description.
For a Sorcerer this means tactical possibilities, for a Wizard it's damn near impossible to predict and I would probably say, near useless.
this example is actually a really strong argument for heighten being used in the most literal way described in the feat text.
Hey, I'm a Sorcerer fan - it works for me with a Kitsune Enchantment specialist.
actually I don't know a lot about sorcerers, but it appears the functionality of heighten is basically the same as it is for wizards.
I meant no harm or insult in my question...I must be odd to read the feat and not have an issue with it...this is why I asked for an example of your confusion since the obvious answer to your OP to me would be to simply post the feat description
I meant no harm or insult in my question...I must be odd to read the feat and not have an issue with it...this is why I asked for an example of your confusion since the obvious answer to your OP to me would be to simply post the feat description
sorry if I sounded snippy. I've just read a bunch of different posts on the same topic and it's getting really frustrating that there isn't some kind of official ruling (which should be in the FAQ considering how strange this meta is)
there are basically 2 ways I can see to interpret it. and while one is almost too good, the other is extremely situational to the point that you wouldn't consider taking the feat.
Druid that can cast 9th level spells and has 30 wisdom
Druid cast Poison that was prepared with quickened heightened spell in let's say a 9th level slot
Instead of a DC of 23 (10+3(spell level)+10(wis)) now the DC is higher by 6 and its a quickened spell so he can still now (or prior preferably) cast pernicious poison
Is the above correct?
I don't play casters a lot though at the moment I am playing a Druid
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
What this feat does: This feat allows you to use a higher level spell slot for lower level spells where normally you can't.
What this means: DC of the spell increases as if it were the spell level of the spell slot used. (also it has the cute side effect of bypassing globes if it is a high enough spell level, also useful for light spells to bypass darkness spells).
If you apply another metamagic feat to the heightened spell it would take up an even higher spell slot depending on the metamagic feat used. Example: color spray lvl 1 spell. Now we apply Heightened metamagic to make it a lvl 4 spell. This would take up a lvl 4 spell slot. But then we apply Silent metamagic (+1 spell lvl) which makes it take up a lvl 5 spell slot. So a silent heightened (to 4) color spray will have a lvl 4 spells DC (14+spell casters primary stat mod) but also not require verbal components.
Ah ok...I think I see the problem now that I didn't see before...
So you would only get the increased spell level effects from heighten spell based off the levels used by heighten spell not the entire increase if used in conjunction with other meta feats
I understand now...note that for me it's now almost 4am ;)
with a sorcerer it is also posible to use higher lvl spell slots for lower lvl spels this way if for instance he needs a lower lvl spell for a specific situation but he has used all thise spell slots already
Well it's probably a feat that is better for Sorcerers and to put it simply it increases the level the spell is cast as. So were you to 'Heighten' a Sleep spell it would be a say, 2nd level spell of exactly the same description.
For a Sorcerer this means tactical possibilities, for a Wizard it's damn near impossible to predict and I would probably say, near useless.
this example is actually a really strong argument for heighten being used in the most literal way described in the feat text.
Hey, I'm a Sorcerer fan - it works for me with a Kitsune Enchantment specialist.
actually I don't know a lot about sorcerers, but it appears the functionality of heighten is basically the same as it is for wizards.
The big difference between the Sorcerer and the Wizard here is the Sorcerer gets far more utility from this metamagic than a Wizard does. He can respond to every potential use according to the demands of the situation. Note also for non-attack spells like say, fly or invisibility, for a Sorcerer this feat opens up the potential to be able to cast these spells a huge number of times - not something that is likely to happen often, but when it does...
Avianfoo is correct. The feat doesn't ever give any "free" boost to spell level and DC. However, the feat is not necessary for a sorcerer to be able to use higher level slots for lower levels spells as some seem to imply, they can do that innately. Any caster can always use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell.
PRD wrote:
A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
Heighten Spell is a feat of moderate utility. There are some casters that can use it to great success but often there are better choices.
Avianfoo is correct. The feat doesn't ever give any "free" boost to spell level and DC. However, the feat is not necessary for a sorcerer to be able to use higher level slots for lower levels spells as some seem to imply, they can do that innately. Any caster can always use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell.
PRD wrote:
A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
Heighten Spell is a feat of moderate utility. There are some casters that can use it to great success but often there are better choices.
Fair point. But then there is no corresponding increase of DC or ability to overcome certain resistances.
Avianfoo gives one interpretation. But there is another one, i fear.
A maximized fireball (assuming nothing else) is a spell of 3rd level using a 6th level slot. So far not problem. But what about a maximized heightened (to 6) fireball? Does it take a 6th or 9th level slot?
Interpreation 1)
According to Avianfoos interpretation: fireball (3), heighten to 6 (3->6), maximize (+3) makes it a 9th level slot for preparation or casting. Straightforward and supported by
Quote:
Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.
OR
Interpretation 2)
fireball (3), maximize (+3), heightened to 6th level (free!) which makes it a 6th level slot:
Quote:
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
Quote:
The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
So maximize already raises the required slot, heighten then adjusts the spell level. In this interpreation you pay simply a "feat tax" for heighten to increase spell level and derived attributes (DC etc.) when applying other metamagic. So heighten allows you to either voluntarily increase the spell level or simply adjust the spell level. BTW it gets even funnier with rods...
In interpretation 1) heighten is of limited use, in case 2) it's great for heavy-metamagic users.
IMHO the case is far from clear and would profit from an official ruling.
Heighten Spell is a very useful metamagic feat. Do not underestimate its usefulness. Heightened Continual Flame means you always have a way to overpower darkness(since you say you are playing in society I highly recommend this, my Wizard took the feat at level 5). There's also this feat, that has Heighten Spell as a prerequisite:
Preferred Spell:
Preferred Spell
You find it very easy to cast one particular spell.
Benefit: Choose one spell which you have the ability to cast. You can cast that spell spontaneously by sacrificing a prepared spell or spell slot of equal or higher level. You can apply any metamagic feats you possess to this spell when you cast it. This increases the minimum level of the prepared spell or spell slot you must sacrifice in order to cast it but does not affect the casting time.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.
Heighten Spell does not raise the level of spells for free that have metamagic feats applied to them as some are suggesting. You can raise the spell level, but if you use Maximize Spell, and Heighten Spell to raise the spell 3 levels, you are raising the spell 6 levels, not getting 3 levels for free. Heighten Spell increases save DCs and is good for Darkness/Light spells. That is pretty much it.
You always have the ability to prepare spells in higher level spell slots, but without heighten spell, you still use the lower DC.
Any caster can always use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell.
Ah. Good catch. I conveniently forgot that (even though I posted something to that effect yesterday).
wraithstrike wrote:
Robert has it right. I have seen the other threads. Many posters just have problem reading rules, and/or they like to intentionally be obtuse.
That is hardly fair. The following line in the feat
Heightened Spell (metamagic) wrote:
Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
could have been written a bit better. I know how it works and I still had to do a double take. The rules are far from obvious to a new player (which is why we help the set them straight).
Any caster can always use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell.
Ah. Good catch. I conveniently forgot that (even though I posted something to that effect yesterday).
wraithstrike wrote:
Robert has it right. I have seen the other threads. Many posters just have problem reading rules, and/or they like to intentionally be obtuse.
That is hardly fair. The following line in the feat
Heightened Spell (metamagic) wrote:
Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
could have been written a bit better. I know how it works and I still had to do a double take. The rules are far from obvious to a new player (which is why we help the set them straight).
It is very fair since not all of them in the other thread were new. If you are new you get some slack. Otherwise you should know the difference between a level slot, and an actual spell level.
Robert has it right. I have seen the other threads. Many posters just have problem reading rules, and/or they like to intentionally be obtuse.
I would just like to point out that both interpretations have aspects that are "obtuse."
for example a spell adjusted by meta remains in all ways as a lower level spell, it just takes up a higher level slot. thus one could use a lesser metamagic rod on a dazing fireball prepared in a level 6 slot.
in a standard table-top setting this may seem a bit less "obtuse" to you than the other interpretation but in society play with more limited access to resources and currently limited to ~12th level characters... it's actually extremely strong...
ok so if one is allowed to apply the empower spell afterwards for "free" to boost the spells actual level, they would then be required to use a more powerful meta rod to apply another effect. essentially the trade-off is boosted level and dc vs. access to more flexibility on the fly. so said dc boost is most definitely not "free"
at least in terms of society play I think both interpretations are close to equal (equal in the sense of how obtuse the interpretation, one obviously says it's much better not to bother with taking heighten). either way, all of our banter back and forth means very little compared to an official statement of the feats functionality by piazo.
Any caster can always use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell.
Ah. Good catch. I conveniently forgot that (even though I posted something to that effect yesterday).
wraithstrike wrote:
Robert has it right. I have seen the other threads. Many posters just have problem reading rules, and/or they like to intentionally be obtuse.
That is hardly fair. The following line in the feat
Heightened Spell (metamagic) wrote:
Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
could have been written a bit better. I know how it works and I still had to do a double take. The rules are far from obvious to a new player (which is why we help the set them straight).
It is very fair since not all of them in the other thread were new. If you are new you get some slack. Otherwise you should know the difference between a level slot, and an actual spell level.
first off, i'm new to pathfinder, but i'm not new to 3.x d&d. if I thought everything was going to work in the manner it did in 3.x I wouldn't have started playing pathfinder in the first place. i'm here for official clarification if possible and honestly if you come with pre-conceived notions from 3.x you're not really looking for that sort of clarity. you're assuming you know how things work ahead of time.
if you read the feat with an open mind there is really no denying that it is vague, new or not new I honestly don't think it matters in that sense... because the only reason I can think of to see the feat as being clearly stated is that you've got some notion of it from before.
if you take into consideration the application of meta rods I think you can begin to see where I am coming from in thinking that the "obtuse" literal application of heighten isn't quite as op as it would initially appear.
Why would you think it was really that different when the selling point was backwards compatibility?
if the point is to leave everything the same then there is no point...
obviously that doesn't mean everything is different, but I think trying to look at things without pre-conceived notions is warranted.
in 3.x I never really felt that the magic system scaled very well across levels. I think metamagic was supposed to be the thing that helped it compensate. here we are in pathfinder and so far i'm not seeing a lot of difference, so i'm trying to keep an open mind about how these things *may* work...
and although taking that sort of departure from 3.x in how we use heighten seems a bit op, 1. it's definitely within the scope of how one could interpret the feat description and 2. it's not without drawbacks if you consider the application of metamagic rods.
on a side note, I rather liked your suppression approach to the whole haste/slow issue. it seems more simple and straightforward than actually dispelling.
Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.
This is really the only important point. Nothing in the rules, or the description of Heighten Spell makes an exception to this. And nothing in the wording of Heighten indicates that you would get free heightening, somehow, from applying a second metamagic to the spell.
Quote:
All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Emphasis mine.
So, reading that, it seems fairly clear that you ONLY get an improvement to the spell's actual level (saving throws and globe penetration) from the heightened levels, as it mentions nothing about other metamagics here, or other effects that might raise the spell's level. Then, the second quoted sentence here indicates that the spell works as though it were actually of the spell level it has been heightened to, which would indicate that you treat it as a spell of that level BEFORE applying other metamagics to it, or using a rod, for the purposes of determining its level and DCs.
So, Fireball (3) + Heighten to 6 + Maximize = level 9 spell slot for a level 6 spell. The DC would be 16+ability modifier. You don't get essentially free metamagic stacking with any other metamagic feat, so why would you in this case?
Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.
This is really the only important point. Nothing in the rules, or the description of Heighten Spell makes an exception to this. And nothing in the wording of Heighten indicates that you would get free heightening, somehow, from applying a second metamagic to the spell.
Quote:
All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Emphasis mine.
So, reading that, it seems fairly clear that you ONLY get an improvement to the spell's actual level (saving throws and globe penetration) from the heightened levels, as it mentions nothing about other metamagics here, or other effects that might raise the spell's level. Then, the second quoted sentence here indicates that the spell works as though it were actually of the spell level it has been heightened to, which would indicate that you treat it as a spell of that level BEFORE applying other metamagics to it, or using a rod, for the purposes of determining its level and DCs.
So, Fireball (3) + Heighten to 6 + Maximize = level 9 spell slot for a level 6 spell. The DC would be 16+ability modifier. You don't get essentially free metamagic stacking with any other metamagic feat, so why would you in this case?
basically the concept of "effective level" isn't clearly defined, and that's the sticking point. one can only infer that it refers to the level of the slot that the spell occupies if heighten is the only meta applied... then does "effective level" suddenly take on a new definition when other meta are added? even though nothing clearly outlines how it stacks with other meta?
there is really nothing specific in the feat description that prohibits it from being applied like this:
a) fireball + maximize + heightened = level 6 spell
whereas without heighten
b) fireball + maximize = level 6 slot, but remains a level 3 spell.
so the feat lets you tack on 3 dc. this is not "free" due to the fact that not only do you pay a feat tax to get it, but (assuming the character has limited resources) you also lose some of the flexibility of what meta you can apply afterwards with rods. specifically in case "b" one could apply the dazing meta with a minor rod, in case "a" one would need a normal meta rod to boost the spell. the difference is not insignificant. is it good? yes. is it too good? maybe. but considering the slot you're using either way, I don't really think it's OP. and regardless of the ruling you'll always find those who find ways of exploiting the system.
in closing, I really just have two main points:
1. I don't think the spells scale very well across levels and I don't think in most cases that the power increase you get from heighten boosting the spell dc for "free" is that out of control
2. my central point is that at the very least there is enough ambiguity for the feat to deserve a FAQ. if you can at least agree with that, please hit FAQ.
Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.
This is really the only important point. Nothing in the rules, or the description of Heighten Spell makes an exception to this. And nothing in the wording of Heighten indicates that you would get free heightening, somehow, from applying a second metamagic to the spell.
Quote:
All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Emphasis mine.
So, reading that, it seems fairly clear that you ONLY get an improvement to the spell's actual level (saving throws and globe penetration) from the heightened levels, as it mentions nothing about other metamagics here, or other effects that might raise the spell's level. Then, the second quoted sentence here indicates that the spell works as though it were actually of the spell level it has been heightened to, which would indicate that you treat it as a spell of that level BEFORE applying other metamagics to it, or using a rod, for the purposes of determining its level and DCs.
So, Fireball (3) + Heighten to 6 + Maximize = level 9 spell slot for a level 6 spell. The DC would be 16+ability modifier. You don't get essentially free metamagic stacking with any other metamagic feat, so why would you in this case?
if you simply cast meteor swarm on level 9 you get the base 19 dc and 24d6 damage (84 damage, even assuming 2d6 blunt damage per sphere doesn't do anything)... that's without having either of the two feats vs. 60 damage with base 16 dc for a level 9 spell?
clearly a maximized fireball with dc 16 should not be a level 9 spell.
if you simply cast meteor swarm on level 9 you get the base 19 dc and 24d6 damage (84 damage, even assuming 2d6 blunt damage per sphere doesn't do anything)... that's without having either of the two feats vs. 60 damage with base 16 dc for a level 9 spell?
clearly a maximized fireball with dc 16 should not be a level 9 spell.
No metamagic feat is designed to empower a level 3 spell to be on par with a level 9 spell. Just because it's not as useful as you'd like, that doesn't make its definition wrong.
Besides, it can be entirely situational. You may be fighting high hd drow where a level 9 light spell is more important than casting meteor swarm because you have darkness spells coming out the wazoo and your true seeing was dispelled.
Maybe you don't have dominate monster so you felt it best to increase the DC of Suggestion. Maybe you just want your floating disk to be that much harder to get rid of.
It won't superpower your damage spells, other than to increase the DC, because that's not its point.
Gniht, you are discounted the section of the CRB that I quoted, which states that adjustments to spell level from a metamagic feat are cumulative (as in, they stack). If you add Empower and Maximize, you increase the spell level by 5. No one disputes that. Nowhere can evidence be found to suggest that Heighten is an exception to how this works, so it works the same way.
Quote:
The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
True, "effective level" isn't really defined anywhere that I know of, but the implication is clear: the spell is treated as a level X (where X is original spell level + number of heightened levels) spell: for the slot it takes up, for its DC, for what sort of metamagic rod can be used to augment it, for getting through spells and effects that look at the level of a spell (globe of invulnerability).
So if it works like that for all other effects, why would it suddenly work differently when tacking on another metamagic feat? Especially since there is nothing ANYWHERE to suggest that Heighten works differently?
Add Heighten to a spell, find its new spell level, then treat the spell as being that level before adding metamagics on top of it. Fireball Heightened to level 6 is now a level 6 spell. Anything you add after works the same way as it would if you were instead modifying an actual level 6 spell. The only way to realistically argue against this reading, is by locating some text that suggests that Heighten would work differently in this case. There doesn't need to be anything in the feat's description to prohibit the weird stacking, since the rules for METAMAGICS already explain how the feats stack, and there are no exceptions to that regarding Heighten. That's how the rules work: things follow the rules that are laid out governing the particular effect or action, unless there is an exception. It isn't: things can do whatever you like because there isn't a rule prohibiting it (especially when there exist rules that already outline how the thing is supposed to work).
Citing that a level 9 fireball is weaker than an actual level 9 spell doesn't justify Heighten working any differently. There are many ways that you can metamagic a level 3 spell up to level 9, using other feats than Heighten, that would yield results that are considerably weaker than simply casting that level 9 spell. There's a reason that metamagic feats, barring a few, actually see very much play, and why, for many, the common wisdom is to only ever use them as metamagic rods, or in conjunction with something like Spell Perfection: because, in most cases, you're better off just casting the higher level spell.
As for your citing the bit about how much damage a 5th level spell should be doing, I'm fairly certain that that is describing the parameters for 5th level spell DESIGN. That is, you have your 3rd level spells that deal 1d6/level (max 10d6), and 5th level spells that deal 1d6/level (max 15d6), and some higher level spells that deal 1d6/level (max 20d6). It would be inappropriate for a 5th level spell to deal only up to 10d6 normally, unless it carried with it some rather significant additional benefits. For instance, a 10d6, 20 ft. radius burst damage spell is junk as a 6th level spell, but if it also Dazes everything it hits that fails the save for 3 rounds, THEN it's actually worth that spell slot, hence the popularity of the Dazing Spell metamagic feat. Those figures are NOT suggestions as to what your spells should be doing when adjusted with metamagics, they are what new spells you or your DM design should be doing based on their spell level (or vice versa: what level a spell should be with effect Y, or with a particular number of damage dice). Note, however, that if you really want to make the comparison using metamagics, an Empowered Fireball does, essentially, 15d6 and is level 5, which is on-target for what a 5th level spell should be doing.
The fact that Heighten is often kind of weak doesn't mean that it works differently than it is designed: it just means that you probably shouldn't take it unless you need to, or unless you can find a situation in which it's actually worth using. Those DO exist, by the way. There are plenty of spell effects that allow saves that don't have higher level equivalents, which you may wish to make more difficult to resist. Flesh to Stone is an example. Or maybe you don't want to bother learning both Hold Person and Hold Monster, so you get the former, and Heighten it so its DC remains competitive. There are plenty of things in the game that make for rather poor choices--much worse than Heighten Spell--and they don't magically start working in a new way just because they suck...they just continue to suck until they are either officially errata'ed, replaced, or house ruled.
Gniht, you are discounted the section of the CRB that I quoted, which states that adjustments to spell level from a metamagic feat are cumulative (as in, they stack). If you add Empower and Maximize, you increase the spell level by 5. No one disputes that. Nowhere can evidence be found to suggest that Heighten is an exception to how this works, so it works the same way.
Quote:
The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
True, "effective level" isn't really defined anywhere that I know of, but the implication is clear: the spell is treated as a level X (where X is original spell level + number of heightened levels) spell: for the slot it takes up, for its DC, for what sort of metamagic rod can be used to augment it, for getting through spells and effects that look at the level of a spell (globe of invulnerability).
So if it works like that for all other effects, why would it suddenly work differently when tacking on another metamagic feat? Especially since there is nothing ANYWHERE to suggest that Heighten works differently?
first of all the "implication" is exactly that: the thing which is inferred. it is anything but clear and the formulaic entries you suggest do not appear in the feat description. so if i'm trying to analyze how the meta functions without pre-conceived notions carried over from 3.x then I start to analyze the relative power level generated by one interpretation over another...
low and behold I discover it's pretty close to in line with what you expect from spells of the appropriate levels even without metamagic attached... and this is plenty enough for me to entertain the notion that my pre-conceived notion of how heighten may work is potentially off.
please don't take this as shouting, but i'm going to restate in caps the following for emphasis as you have in several parts of your post...
and this is my central point:
I'M SURE EXAMPLES ABOUND TO ARGUE BOTH SIDES BUT I THINK IT IS EXTREMELY CLEAR AT THIS POINT IT NEEDS A FAQ.
i'm sorry, have I have done such a horrible job presenting my case so as not to make clear the point? the manner in which you are stating the feat works is exactly the baggage I was carrying with me from 3.x until I started reading the different threads on the subject and analyzing what the actual effect would be if heightened worked in the way i'm currently arguing. honestly, I can see both sides to some extent but currently i'm leaning to the side of heighten working in synergy with other meta as I described in recent posts.
furthermore I honestly cannot see how anyone can make a logical case, from reading the feat description, that it is clearly stated without ambiguity. I personally find it to be so obviously in need of clarification that I really wonder if the reason such a call has not been made is due to the design team still being at odds over the answer.
furthermore I honestly cannot see how anyone can make a logical case, from reading the feat description, that it is clearly stated without ambiguity. I personally find it to be so obviously in need of clarification that I really wonder if the reason such a call has not been made is due to the design team still being at odds over the answer.
actually, if one was going to draw any logical conclusion of the functionality from reading the feat description, I think it could only be that:
"a heightened spell's level is equal to the level of the slot that the spell occupies."
this is the conclusion anyone would arrive at if heighten spell was the only metamagic applied to the spell. we must all agree on this.
this is the only logical statement one can derive from the feat description.
any other statement regarding the functionality of heighten or it's interaction with other meta is purely individual interpretation...
the interpretation that it can be tacked onto other meta to increase dc without changing the level further most closely follows the logical interpretation of how the feat functions by itself... but it is at odds with how we think about meta stacking in general.
No metamagic feat is designed to empower a level 3 spell to be on par with a level 9 spell. Just because it's not as useful as you'd like, that doesn't make its definition wrong.
I'm not calling the definition wrong. I'm calling the definition unclear.
Mortalis wrote:
Besides, it can be entirely situational. You may be fighting high hd drow where a level 9 light spell is more important than casting meteor swarm because you have darkness spells coming out the wazoo and your true seeing was dispelled.
if i'm ever in this situation i guess my wizard will just have to kick himself in the shins for not having the intelligence to prep a light spell heightened to level 9
Mortalis wrote:
Maybe you just want your floating disk to be that much harder to get rid of.
admittedly i don't really understand the ins and outs of dispelling in pathfinder but i was under the impression that it was based on caster level, not spell level?
Mortalis wrote:
It won't superpower your damage spells, other than to increase the DC, because that's not its point.
I totally agree, and i think I've shown that is still true under the interpretation I've been arguing for as of late. and i think it's reasonable to expect decent return on the feat investment, and i think in most cases the result is that you pay a feat to get heighten in order to offset the slot loss you already suffer by augmenting a spell with meta into a higher level slot. in my mind one using this interpretation sees heighten as more of a feat you get in order to recoup some of your losses from using other meta.
Besides, it can be entirely situational. You may be fighting high hd drow where a level 9 light spell is more important than casting meteor swarm because you have darkness spells coming out the wazoo and your true seeing was dispelled.
if i'm ever in this situation i guess my wizard will just have to kick himself in the shins for not having the intelligence to prep a light spell heightened to level 9
Haha, sorry about that, forgot you were talking about wizards. I'm a sorcerer fan, so I have a tendency to default my thinking towards them. I can see how that would be a pain to preempt for a wizard though.
gniht wrote:
Mortalis wrote:
Maybe you just want your floating disk to be that much harder to get rid of.
admittedly i don't really understand the ins and outs of dispelling in pathfinder but i was under the impression that it was based on caster level, not spell level?
Errr... Yeah, you're right there. I'm not sure why I thought otherwise... Item Enchantment maybe? Not sure. I was at work at the time, so I've kind've forgotten.
gniht wrote:
Mortalis wrote:
It won't superpower your damage spells, other than to increase the DC, because that's not its point.
I totally agree, and i think I've shown that is still true under the interpretation I've been arguing for as of late. and i think it's reasonable to expect decent return on the feat investment, and i think in most cases the result is that you pay a feat to get heighten in order to offset the slot loss you already suffer by augmenting a spell with meta into a higher level slot. in my mind one using this interpretation sees heighten as more of a feat you get in order to recoup some of your losses from using other meta.
I've gotta be honest, I'm really not seeing your point of view.
"The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level."
Don't get me wrong, I agree it's vague. But I fail to see how you've taken that line to mean that its "effective level" would include anything from outside what the feat itself does (i.e other metamagic feats). Its ability only applies to the level slots you choose to "spend" in order to heighten it.
Otherwise if they stacked, you could have a still, silent, empowered, maximized fireball that used a 6th level slot.
'M SURE EXAMPLES ABOUND TO ARGUE BOTH SIDES BUT I THINK IT IS EXTREMELY CLEAR AT THIS POINT IT NEEDS A FAQ.
i'm sorry, have I have done such a horrible job presenting my case so as not to make clear the point? the manner in which you are stating the feat works is exactly the baggage I was carrying with me from 3.x until I started reading the different threads on the subject and analyzing what the actual effect would be if heightened worked in the way i'm currently arguing. honestly, I can see both sides to some extent but currently i'm leaning to the side of heighten working in synergy with other meta as I described in recent posts.
furthermore I honestly cannot see how anyone can make a logical case, from reading the feat description, that it is clearly stated without ambiguity. I personally find it to be so obviously in need of clarification that I really wonder if the reason such a call has not been made is due to the design team still being at odds over the answer.
Except there AREN'T examples to support your side of the argument.
You're just completely ignoring the way metamagic feats are stated to work. The text I quoted is from the PRD's section on how metamagic feats function. Every metamagic feat adjusts the spell slot used for a spell upward by a particular amount, and has an effect. Metamagic feats don't confer mysterious additional benefits that aren't outlined in the text of their feat. Multiple metamagics applied to the same spell add the adjustments to the level of the spell slot used together.
Nowhere does anything imply that Heighten spell would work in the way you, and some others, have chosen to interpret it. It has nothing to do with baggage from 3.x. Sure, the feat description could be cleaned up, but even its poor wording cannot possibly lead to a reading that implies that it works in the way you are choosing to view it. It's just not there.
The design team probably hasn't FAQ'ed this, because they generally don't do FAQs for things that are already covered in their rules, such as: things do what they are described as doing, and work according to the rules in place governing them, unless an exception is called out, and there is NO exception made here. Don't you think that if Heighten was designed to work with other metamagic feats in this way, SOMETHING in the text of the spell, or the description of how metamagic feats function would call this out? They specifically call out the fact that a Quickened spell doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, so why wouldn't they call this out?
Willful misreading or misinterpretation doesn't warrant a FAQ answer from the team.
I've seen comments by (sometimes a LOT) of people that make claims without any factual evidence, like: the world is flat (still), we never landed on the moon, the holocaust never happened, Jews have horns, trickle-down economics works...
Just because a lot of people seem to believe something doesn't mean that something is true. Now, in the case of the rules text regarding metamagic feats and Heighten Spell, the only real ambiguity, and alternative viewpoint, comes from willfully being obtuse, deciding that the feat works differently than it is written, despite a lack of any evidence. That many people feel that it works this way doesn't mean it does, and doesn't mean that it is unclear. Similarly, just because the feat isn't very useful to wizards (although it is to sorcerers) doesn't mean it works differently than stated. Additionally, just because a misreading of the thing results in a more useful outcome doesn't mean it works any differently.
There's a difference between wishful thinking and actually reading and interpreting text.
Why would you think it was really that different when the selling point was backwards compatibility?
if the point is to leave everything the same then there is no point...
obviously that doesn't mean everything is different, but I think trying to look at things without pre-conceived notions is warranted.
in 3.x I never really felt that the magic system scaled very well across levels. I think metamagic was supposed to be the thing that helped it compensate. here we are in pathfinder and so far i'm not seeing a lot of difference, so i'm trying to keep an open mind about how these things *may* work...
and although taking that sort of departure from 3.x in how we use heighten seems a bit op, 1. it's definitely within the scope of how one could interpret the feat description and 2. it's not without drawbacks if you consider the application of metamagic rods.
on a side note, I rather liked your suppression approach to the whole haste/slow issue. it seems more simple and straightforward than actually dispelling.
Unless the words change the rules are the same.
I actually wrote a detailed description on heighten metagmagic in another thread that broke it down. I will see if I can find it. If I do I will either post a link to it, or copy and paste it here, but I am telling you now, that heighten metamagic does not help you get a return on other metamagic feats. There are traits and feats that do that already. There were also feats that reduced metamagic cost in 3.5.
With that said my link should explain the difference between a level slot, and the level that a spell "actually" is. The two are not the same.
I can't find my old post so I will have to explain it again here.
PRD wrote:
Metamagic Feats
As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
Here we have a rule says metamagic feats take up higher slots when used.
Is Heighten a metamagic spell?
Yes it is.
Does heighten have a special rule saying it does not take up a higher level slot when used to increase a spell's level?
Let's check.
Quote:
Heighten Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
The only exception this feat has is that unlike the other metamagic feats it increases the spell level, while the other metamagic feats only use up a higher level slot.
What do we know about higher level spells?
They take up higher level slots. From what is in the book heighten does not get a free pass. In order for it to raise the effective spell level without burning a higher level slot it would specifically have to say so.
How do I know a metamagic(to include heighten) feat must change the slot used?
As quoted in my last post:
prd wrote:
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell:
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
So that is two quotes saying the metamagic feats use higher level slots, and no quotes saying heighten gets a free pass.
I've seen comments by (sometimes a LOT) of people that make claims without any factual evidence, like: the world is flat (still), we never landed on the moon, the holocaust never happened, Jews have horns, trickle-down economics works...
wow. did i deserve that comparison?
yeti1069 wrote:
Just because a lot of people seem to believe something doesn't mean that something is true. Now, in the case of the rules text regarding metamagic feats and Heighten Spell, the only real ambiguity, and alternative viewpoint, comes from willfully being obtuse, deciding that the feat works differently than it is written, despite a lack of any evidence. That many people feel that it works this way doesn't mean it does, and doesn't mean that it is unclear. Similarly, just because the feat isn't very useful to wizards (although it is to sorcerers) doesn't mean it works differently than stated. Additionally, just because a misreading of the thing results in a more useful outcome doesn't mean it works any differently.
even if i completely agreed with you on how the feat works, i would still think that the very fact that there are so many people capable of arriving at a different interpretation is enough to warrant a FAQ.
if included in the feat description was something more along the lines of what you suggested was implied "spell is treated as a level X (where X is original spell level + number of heightened levels)" then i would agree that there wasn't any ambiguity. if it even stated that you had to apply heighten first before any other meta, then i would also agree that there was no ambiguity.
let me provide an example of how this feat can be interpreted from the feat text.
let's say a caster has a level 6 slot they wish to do something with
the caster applies empower spell to his fireball to boost the damage, making it take a level 5 slot, then heighten to increase the save dc and prepares it in his level 6 slot.
in this case there is no ambiguity about whether or not the spell is now "heightened" the spell has definitely been "heightened" regardless of how you interpret the feat.
now that we've established that the spell has been heightened, i would draw your attention to the line in the feat description which explicitly says "a heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as it's effective level"
It says "a heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as it's effective level" because heighten spell changes the effective level of the spell.
The other metamagics don't.
If fireball's effective level did not change then the DC could not change. By effectively being raised up to a new level it must take up a slot of that level at minimum, otherwise it is not effectively acting at that spell level.
Example:
I choose to effectively raise fireball to a 5th level spell.
The DC increase by 2, and it now takes up a 5th level slot because it is effectively a 5th level spell.
Now let's say I also want to empower the spell. That is another +2 slots.
Now it is still using 5th level for the level of the spell but because of how metamagic works it is using a 7th level slot.
You still have yet to show a rule that says heighten does not use up a higher level slot. If it is effectively a higher level spell then it only makes sense for it to use a higher level slot.
If you use height on its own are you going to say you can use use it as a 9th level spell, but only use a 3rd level slot?<---Without specific verbage it can't mean you are allowed to do this.
edit:If you are saying it can't do that then explain why you can add the other metamagics on top of it can have them not stack, when they stack with each other to determine the slot used.
if it even stated that you had to apply heighten first before any other meta, then i would also agree that there was no ambiguity.
i take this part back, it would not be enough to erase ambiguity here.
Actually there is not need for that to be stated first since that is the default position. You would need a rule to state that metamagic does not stack with the other metamagic feats for your idea to work. Your idea of heighten does not even allow it to work as a metamagic feat.
It is working more like Spell Perfection, which is not a metamagic feat.
Quote:
Spell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
As you can see spell perfection allows you to use metamagic feat without increasing the spell level, but it is a general feat.
You can keep arguing your point, but you still have to show where heighten is contradicting the general metamagic rules before any errata is shown. Beyond that it will be seen as a "reader" problem. That is basically how things go around here.
Metamagic feats use higher level spell slots. You can at least agree with that I hope.
Let's look at heighten spell and empower spell.
If you use heighten spell on magic missile to heighten it 2 levels, it will use a level 3 spell slot. Agree? If not why?
If you use empower spell on magic missile, it will use a level 3 spell slot. Agree? If not why?
If you use heighten spell on magic missile to heighten it 2 levels, and use empower spell on the same magic missile, it will use a level 5 spell slot. Agree? If not why?
There is really no reasonable way you could possibly come to the conclusion that heighten spell gives you free DC bumps.
I think he is looking at the "effective level" as the level of the spell before heighten spell is applied and reasoning that the heighten magic gives all the advantages of a higher level spell, without changing the effective spell level so it does not stack. <---I have no idea how that is supposed to work. I am just the translator. :)
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