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There is a difference between compensation and a small thank you being imparted on someone for their service.That's exactly my point. But I feel that hundreds of dollars of free product falls well within the compensation category.
Hundreds of dollars worth of product takes a long time to earn when it's released as $8 a month worth of product.
So...are you just disagreeing with me over my definition of 'compensation'? Cause if that is the only thing, then I doubt I can change your mind, so we can just agree to disagree.
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Sorry, folks, I totally screwed up that math with a stupid spreadsheet error. We also further refined the source data I was working with.
Here's the *real* data.
(data deleted)
Do these numbers JUST mean playing? I average playing 2-3 times a month (I have to go back to seasons 0-2 to be able to play more than twice a month) but if you add in the amount I judge, it's more like 5-6 times a month.
In the year that I have been playing I have gmed 100 games, and I have played 27.
You need to get after your store coordinator and get those scenarios reported. You should have 4 stars next to your name.
These boards are living proof. Maybe I am too cynical when it comes to this stuff, but more often than not I look at these people that post complaining about something and they have no stars next to their names, have no pfs characters registered on their account and just want to complain at how crappy paizo is of a company.
Why not judge people on the basis of their words as opposed to how much flair they have associated with a digital avatar. If someone is saying unreasonable and uninformed things, they are unreasonable and uninformed. Simple as that.
Do these numbers JUST mean playing? I average playing 2-3 times a month (I have to go back to seasons 0-2 to be able to play more than twice a month) but if you add in the amount I judge, it's more like 5-6 times a month.
Very interested in that clarification as well.
I would assume it means participating not playing.
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Hundreds of dollars worth of product takes a long time to earn when it's released as $8 a month worth of product.
Ah, you're a VL, not a VC. My bad. You receive significantly less compensation, true. On the other hand, your job duties are a lot more flexible, in that you and your VC sort out which of you is doing what. So maybe you are under-compensated, but that doesn't mean you aren't compensated.
Honestly, I think VLs should get more, and that would open the current VL tier for game day organizers in general. But that's all better suited to that other thread.
The point is, yes, we do appear to be arguing the definition of compensation, so let's just drop it, I suppose.
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In all seriousness, Mark has pointed this out to all of us time and time again. I'd like to think I listened to him at least once, and that's why I am saying all this now, instead of getting all up in his grill next March.Please refrain from getting "up in his grill" at all. Mark, like everyone else on the production team, works very hard to make the best products he can. We welcome -- and value -- sincere feedback from our customers, including critical feedback, but that is not an open invitation to be rude, belligerent, or harassing toward individuals on the team. Thanks!
Jessica Price,
Best. Hire. Ever.
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In the year that I have been playing I have gmed 100 games, and I have played 27.You need to get after your store coordinator and get those scenarios reported. You should have 4 stars next to your name.
These boards are living proof. Maybe I am too cynical when it comes to this stuff, but more often than not I look at these people that post complaining about something and they have no stars next to their names, have no pfs characters registered on their account and just want to complain at how crappy paizo is of a company.Why not judge people on the basis of their words as opposed to how much flair they have associated with a digital avatar. If someone is saying unreasonable and uninformed things, they are unreasonable and uninformed. Simple as that.
Tim- The stars mean jack crap to me. My store co-ordinator is me :D I earned my 4th star this weekend at a con. The con is yet to be reported. It will be there soon :D Since I said the stars mean jack crap to me let me explain. I would rather provide and fun and enjoyable experience to new and old players alike or to help organize people for said stuff. I do it because I love the game. I feel that gms are our lifeblood and they should be honored and this is not the first time I have said this. I know other Venture officers that feel exactly the same way I do.
I do judge people on what they say, but on any public forum it is hard to judge someone unless you really know them. When I see someone complain about how pfs is too restrictive and they have never played a game in their life I have a harder time hearing their point of view.
Jeff Fox- Have you emailed Mike Brock about these VO's that said that stuff? If you have valid points I think he would listen. In reference to what Wizards does with printing etc. I am sorry but I absolutely hate the way they do their OP. From what I have heard you have to run on the same night, run the stuff for 1 week, and then never run it again. to me that is complete crap. I have heard things like if you miss a week to bad your missed it and that is that. Personally I run off my tablet because I hate printing hundreds of pages worth of scenarios. I print chronicle sheets and that is pretty much everything.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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And one of the reason why I'm stepping down is because of the way some of the VO's on this forum called me unreasonable just because I said that a automated system that sends thank you's to GM's would be a good idea. And that I should be doing what I do because I love the game.
I actually have something similar to this on my list handed over to IT. When a GM earns a new star, they receive a thank you email and a special boon. It isn't ready yet but it is on the list. And, if you ever felt a VC mistreated you, all you need to do is email me. I have been on the road 8.5 of the last 10 weeks and not able to read every thread.
I don't love having to pay to market a game and support organized play out of my own pocket. It sucks to sit on a bus for an hour to get to a gameday where you have to run two slots back to back and not have enough money to pay for food because your extra income went to buying the scenarios for the other GM's to run, because if you didn't they wouldn't run. It sucks, especially when I'm called unreasonable because I think it be nice for the company that I'm marketing for to send out an automated thank you.
Again, it simply takes an email or phone call to me explaining the situation from either a VO or you, and I would make sure you had the scenarios you needed to coordinate game days without having you miss a meal. I have worked with numerous FLGS coordinators who have no VO close by and I make sure their game days receive what they need to have to be successful, including scenarios, free posters, and prize support when I can swing it.
And when I stop running Paizo probably won't even notice the difference and the only people who will care are the people who lose out on the gameday.
Don't be so sure. I generate reports all the time to see what GMs are active, how many games they run, etc... As a lot of people here can attest, I am a very hands on person. I do take notice. I do send out surprises at random to active volunteers, whether it is a race boon they have been desperately looking for, or a Paizo book they mentioned they have wanted but can't afford.
You will be missed but you have to do what you think will bring you the most enjoyment. I wish you well in whatever your future decision is.
Chief Technical Officer
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Including GM stats would be counterproductive to gauging demand for material since GMs can and do GM the same modules repeatedly. I'm pretty comfortable that the stats I quoted are the best data we have to consider when answering that question, apart from your direct feedback.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Erik has already said we intend to work up to 3 per month. And we'll revisit things after that, of course, but the data does give me some hope that 3 per month (plus specials, plus sanctioned Modules, plus sanctioned APs, plus whatever else we come up with) will satisfy the vast majority of the community.
(Actually, the data gives me hope that 2 actually does now, but 3 will satisfy a slightly *vaster* majority.)
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CEO
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They are complacent.
I can tell you that THAT isn't the case. There will never be complacency as long as I am helming this ship. If you realized how many man hours went into strategizing about 5th edition BEFORE IT WAS EVEN ANNOUNCED, you would be shocked.
We have to stay hungry. We have to constantly strive to get better. We can never be satisfied with where we are. These are the tenets that I run Paizo with.
We aren't complacent. Far, far from it.
That said, this is a good thread! And I agree with lots of stuff that you said in it. Except for the complacency bit. That is about as far from the truth as it could be.
-Lisa
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I don't love having to pay to market a game and support organized play out of my own pocket. It sucks to sit on a bus for an hour to get to a gameday where you have to run two slots back to back and not have enough money to pay for food because your extra income went to buying the scenarios for the other GM's to run, because if you didn't they wouldn't run. It sucks, especially when I'm called unreasonable because I think it be nice for the company that I'm marketing for to send out an automated thank you.Again, it simply takes an email or phone call to me explaining the situation from either a VO or you, and I would make sure you had the scenarios you needed to coordinate game days without having you miss a meal. I have worked with numerous FLGS coordinators who have no VO close by and I make sure their game days receive what they need to have to be successful, including scenarios, free posters, and prize support when I can swing it.
Jeffrey, I can vouch for Mike here. I received free PDFs of three scenarios and a module for my Origins schedule earlier this month, a month in advance to facilitate my prep for the event. I'm sorry to hear you got hosed on your gameday, and highly encourage you to communicate requests. Mike has been super responsive about making sure volunteers were taken care of, even when I harassed him about PaizoCon volunteering a week or two early. :)
Edit: On the subject of unreported sessions, I recommend trying to keep a copy of table information for yourself, and when it goes unreported, make your own event and report it yourself. I've done that myself for one of my GMs that tends to not be as on top of things as I.
Personally, I report the session immediately after running it, via my phone if need be. But I know multiple games from a gameday take longer.
They are complacent.I can tell you that THAT isn't the case. There will never be complacency as long as I am helming this ship. If you realized how many man hours went into strategizing about 5th edition BEFORE IT WAS EVEN ANNOUNCED, you would be shocked.
We have to stay hungry. We have to constantly strive to get better. We can never be satisfied with where we are. These are the tenets that I run Paizo with.
We aren't complacent. Far, far from it.
That said, this is a good thread! And I agree with lots of stuff that you said in it. Except for the complacency bit. That is about as far from the truth as it could be.
-Lisa
Loved seeing this post. Lisa, please don't ever retire. :)
Besides, I'd miss seeing you at GenCon!
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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They are complacent.I can tell you that THAT isn't the case. There will never be complacency as long as I am helming this ship. If you realized how many man hours went into strategizing about 5th edition BEFORE IT WAS EVEN ANNOUNCED, you would be shocked.
We have to stay hungry. We have to constantly strive to get better. We can never be satisfied with where we are. These are the tenets that I run Paizo with.
We aren't complacent. Far, far from it.
That said, this is a good thread! And I agree with lots of stuff that you said in it. Except for the complacency bit. That is about as far from the truth as it could be.
-Lisa
Now THIS is what I'm looking for!
Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me you're gearing up for the challenge. And let everyone know to bring it on.
Now I'm excited. (-:
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CEO
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Now THIS is what I'm looking for!
Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me you're gearing up for the challenge. And let everyone know to bring it on.
Now I'm excited. (-:
You are wrong.
We are gearing up for the challenge.
There are tons of cool things in the pipeline that we haven't told anybody about yet.
There are a lot of people that I admire at Wizards of the Coast. People whom I have worked with in the past. People I would hire in a heartbeat if they called me up looking for a job. I have to believe that those folks are going to come out guns blazing. I have to believe that they are aiming to take back the top spot. I have to believe they are a bit pissed about Pathfinder taking that from them. I know that I would be.
No need to worry. I am expecting WotC to give us their best shot. And we are getting ready for it. We WILL be ready for it. :)
-Lisa
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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They are complacent.I can tell you that THAT isn't the case. There will never be complacency as long as I am helming this ship. If you realized how many man hours went into strategizing about 5th edition BEFORE IT WAS EVEN ANNOUNCED, you would be shocked.
We have to stay hungry. We have to constantly strive to get better. We can never be satisfied with where we are. These are the tenets that I run Paizo with.
We aren't complacent. Far, far from it.
That said, this is a good thread! And I agree with lots of stuff that you said in it. Except for the complacency bit. That is about as far from the truth as it could be.
-Lisa
Lisa wins the thread! We can close this one down now!!!
(Thanks for jumping on here, Lisa; it is great to know that ALL of you at Paizo pay attention to these forums!)
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Sorry, folks, I totally screwed up that math with a stupid spreadsheet error. We also further refined the source data I was working with.
Here's the *real* data.
Percent of people who have reported playing sessions in the past year that:
- Average 1 or more session per month: 22%
- Average 2 or more sessions per month: 9%
- Average 3 or more sessions per month: 4%
- Average 4 or more sessions per month: 2%
- Average 5 or more sessions per month: less than 1%
If you drop out the people who only reported one session *period*, you get:
Percent of people who have reported playing more than one session in the past year that:
- Average 1 or more session per month: 29%
- Average 2 or more sessions per month: 12%
- Average 3 or more sessions per month: 5%
- Average 4 or more sessions per month: 2%
- Average 5 or more sessions per month: less than 1%
Something else to consider with these stats is that sometimes there will be game days where scenarios are running that you've already played, so you can't play that day/week.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Something else to consider with these stats is that sometimes there will be game days where scenarios are running that you've already played, so you can't play that day/week.Sorry, folks, I totally screwed up that math with a stupid spreadsheet error. We also further refined the source data I was working with.
Here's the *real* data.
Percent of people who have reported playing sessions in the past year that:
- Average 1 or more session per month: 22%
- Average 2 or more sessions per month: 9%
- Average 3 or more sessions per month: 4%
- Average 4 or more sessions per month: 2%
- Average 5 or more sessions per month: less than 1%
If you drop out the people who only reported one session *period*, you get:
Percent of people who have reported playing more than one session in the past year that:
- Average 1 or more session per month: 29%
- Average 2 or more sessions per month: 12%
- Average 3 or more sessions per month: 5%
- Average 4 or more sessions per month: 2%
- Average 5 or more sessions per month: less than 1%
Well, there's that, and with the lack of GM statistics...Well, let's just say that I do 2-3 PFS sessions per week on average, but would fall under the 1 session per month statistic here.
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There are a ton of ways to parse the data on this stuff. Trust me - I do Business Intelligence for a living. At least, I did at my last job. I'm doing different work now, though still with the same technology. Most people think of BI as just reporting, but any programmer can give business users the reports they ask for. There's an "I" in BI for a reason. The whole point is to have BI people come up with new ways of looking at the data, answering questions that the business users never thought to ask.
I'm not sure how much really detailed data analysis Paizo has done on their raw data, but as someone who has done this sort of thing quite a bit, I could probably come up with plenty of questions to ask about their data that they've never thought of. Just looking at average games played per month is really basic. I'd start with that, but quickly move on to average customer lifespan, how many players have ever actually run low on scenarios to play, whether players tend to start with newer or older scenarios, whether players with one PC or lots of PCs tend to stick around longer, different playing behaviors depending on event types (conventions, small public events, private events), how the rate of GMing affects the rate of playing by the same person, etc.
If there's one thing I learned from working in Business Intelligence, it's that most businesses have at least one incorrect assumption about their business that they'll discover when they really dig into their data. And it's usually some long standing assumption that nobody has ever thought to question.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I've been playing PFS for 16 months. In that time I've averaged a little over four tables a month as a player, and around half that many as a GM (around 20% of which were repeated scenarios).
The numbers my wife has clocked up are very similar.
I knew we were playing more than the average PFS player - we're lucky enough to have three local 10-slot conventions each year, and two local game stores offering PFS (with another 4 or 5 an hour or so away). But I must admit I'm a little surprised to find out just how far we are up in the tail.
Here's the *real* data.
If you drop out the people who only reported one session *period*, you get:
Percent of people who have reported playing more than one session in the past year that:
- Average 1 or more session per month: 29%
- Average 2 or more sessions per month: 12%
- Average 3 or more sessions per month: 5%
- Average 4 or more sessions per month: 2%
- Average 5 or more sessions per month: less than 1%
If you only release 2 scenarios per month then these figures may just represent a bottleneck, in that people who want to play more often simply can't. You won't see the figures for 3 or 4 times per month increase until the opportunities becomes available. That's also compounded by the difficulties of scheduling, tiers, and the inability to replay.
My regular local group still play a certain other game, but they're unlikely to switch over to PFS now as the buy-in for system mastery is so high and increasing all the time. Never mind the cost, how long will it take for a newbie to read and digest all the new rules? They don't *have* to buy all the books, but they're the sort of regular gamers who do. It's just a lot easier to do that from the beginning and the more complex the game gets the more new players get left behind. That's perhaps the biggest thing in favour of D&D Next - it's fresh and the buy-in is low; or it will be to start with anyway.
Then there's the perception that PFRPG mk 1 may be approaching end of life because of the level of bloat and complexity. That may not be true but if Paizo need to keep selling us books to keep expanding then a reboot is the easiest way to do that. Maybe we're just jaded from past experience? :-) It would also deal with the high buy-in mentioned above. The one thing that might justify a reboot (without looking like a blatant attempt to maximise revenue) is a radically rewritten core rulebook that focuses on simplicity and ease of use. Something that *seriously* simplifies the game without changing the game. Tweaking a few paragraphs won't do it, it needs to be a wholesale restructure and rewrite. Target the ambiguities, disagreements and misunderstandings and bring some clarity and consistency. Make the rulebook so elegant that it's actually worth reading; so intuitive that it allows GMs to look things up mid game in less than a minute. It should be a doddle to reduce it to half its current size, maybe even 25%, without excluding anything.
Redesigning the game to reduce stat blocks to a fraction of their current size would also help justify a reboot. I'm buying the reprints of old adventures and the stat blocks are one or two lines, with a brief note below them, often only one sentence in itself. I appreciate that edition required lookup tables to make it complete, but its so much easier to use than the half-page stat blocks we have now. Complexity is fine for characters where the player has spent a few weeks creating them, but for the GM to memorise all the options and intricacies of a dozen NPCs is too much.
I'd get rid of alignments too as they just cause arguments, but that's a whole different thing!
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Hey, everybody,
Vic has stated that he hopes the data proves that, by providing 3 scenarios per month, they will be doing a better service to the PFS community. There is no need to question the data based on whether it's limited due to GMing, or bottleknecking, or how many players are only playing twice due to no choice. In other words, there is no reason to assume that Paizo is using it as an excuse to maintain their current release schedule; they're listening.
Although I do like Fromper's questions, and hope Paizo considers having a look at stuff like that. There's a lot of cool information that can be had there.
I also don't think this is the thread to debate whether/when/how a next iteration of PFRPG is warranted.
Let's stay on target, and discuss the things we can do to expand and strengthen PFS in our communities, while at the same time giving ideas to Paizo that they can use.
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Hey, everybody,
Vic has stated that he hopes the data proves that, by providing 3 scenarios per month, they will be doing a better service to the PFS community. There is no need to question the data based on whether it's limited due to GMing, or bottleknecking, or how many players are only playing twice due to no choice. In other words, there is no reason to assume that Paizo is using it as an excuse to maintain their current release schedule; they're listening.
Although I do like Fromper's questions, and hope Paizo considers having a look at stuff like that. There's a lot of cool information that can be had there.
I also don't think this is the thread to debate whether/when/how a next iteration of PFRPG is warranted.
Let's stay on target, and discuss the things we can do to expand and strengthen PFS in our communities, while at the same time giving ideas to Paizo that they can use.
Most companies pay to get this sort of information and discussion from people with expertise. Paizo can only listen if people talk.
And yes, at least some bottlenecking is occurring. I have 9 characters. Of the characters I like playing, all of them are below level 5. I actually am going to be DMing a lot of Thornkeep in the next month to get a character out of the bottleneck.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Fair point. I guess if you're bottlenecking and letting them know about this, then that is useful feedback for them.
I just don't want people dogpiling them and questioning the VALIDITY of their data based on this or that circumstance. That's not useful.
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The total number of books available containing mechanics and setting information for the PFRPG? 232. If you purchase these at retail, you're spending a whopping $5000. Even with the 15% discount you can get through Paizo, we're talking about $4000+.
Good gravy, man! I have made all those purchases, don't put those dollar amounts out in public where my wife might see it!
Seriously, though, I have spent WAAAAAAY more on PF than I ever did on 3.0/3.5 combined, and I bought most of those books, as well as most of the 4E books when that first came out.
If anything I should be seriously peeved at Erik, Jason, et al for taking all my money. Not to mention the amount I spend each year trying to get to 10 different cons scattered all over the Southeast and Midwest.
More to the spirit of the thread, put me firmly in the camp of a limited increase in number of scenarios, maybe shoot for 5/2 months or so. I have 6 PCs, two of whom are retired. I get to play/run basically once a week (job + wife), but I do get to go to a decent number of cons each year (see above). I got a slow start in PFS, only playing at cons (starting with GenCon 2008), and spent my original GM energy running a large group through Kingmaker (which took over a year to get through the first four books). I now spend most of my gaming energy running PFS locally and at cons. I just made my third star. All that buildup to say that I have a number of scenarios left that I can play or GM for credit, but our VC (woo Mike Seales!) does a great job of finding scenarios to fit.
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/me attempts to smother the temptation to get Lisa a captain's hat for meetings.
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/me attempts to smother the temptation to get Lisa a captain's hat for meetings.
...I know an awesome costume shop where this can be done. >.>
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/me attempts to smother the temptation to get Lisa a captain's hat for meetings....I know an awesome costume shop where this can be done. >.>
*conspiratorial eyebrow lift*
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Pirates must die.
hiyah!
Pirates must die.
hiyah!
Brother!
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Chief Technical Officer
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Fair point. I guess if you're bottlenecking and letting them know about this, then that is useful feedback for them.
By all means. I was the one who pointed out the bottlenecking with my "six-pack of Cokes" analogy, after all, and said that the only way we can know it exists is if you tell us....
This is my personal view on the matter.
Once Hasbro bought WotC, the direction of the company changed from making the game we all love to profiting off of the game we all love.
For that, WotC will only see my dime once in a blue moon when I buy Magic cards and RA Salvatore novels.
Pathfinder is the purest form of D&D there ever will be. I'm speaking about D&D the game... not the actual IP. The act of sitting around a table (even a virtual one), fighting beasts and playing the warriors, priests, rogues, and wizards, is what I am referring to.
Organized play is but one avenue where Paizo will compete with WotC. Pathfinder Online is going to blow Neverwinter out of the water.
I dare say Golarion rivals the depth of Faerun.
The addition of all the "Ultimate" books add relaventlayers to the game. Those aren't niche books. They are adding depth and detail every month to Golarion.
Paizo / Goblinworks is user-friendly. Crowdforging of Pathfinder Online is evidence of that. I recently got the chance to interview Rich Baker, along with Stephen Cheney and Tork Shaw. Something that Mr. Baker, who created Birthright for 2e back in the TSR days. Before we started recording, he said that Goblinworks would much rather create a game that 10,000 love to play, then a game that 100,000 people play off and on because it's mediocre.
As long as Paizo keeps themselves relevant and remains user-friendly, they won't ever have to compete with WotC.
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I have to agree with your comment on Neverwinter. I have played it and was pretty disappointed. Not trying to hate on WoTC(I played 4th Ed for its first two years), but I supported the PFO kickstarter and what I've seen so far seems to outclass Neverwinter in every imaginable way. Assuming the majority of what is being revealed in the email updates makes it into the final product of course.
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CEO
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There's a picture forming in my mind of you that is remminiscent of Amy Pond in her pirate gear from "Curse Of The Black Spot". Were you the lass I bought my orignal black cover copy of Ars Magica in that long ago Gen Con? As I recall, the Lion Rampant "booth" was an up-ended cardboard box:) But I might just be getting senile.They are complacent.I can tell you that THAT isn't the case. There will never be complacency as long as I am helming this ship.
There was three of us girls at that Lion Rampant booth. Myself, Nicole Lindroos, and Kirsten Swingle. So it might have been any of the three of us at that GenCon in 1988.
-Lisa