Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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That title drew you in and got you instantly riled up and/or curious, didn’t it? But what you really want to know is what in the world I’m talking about.
I’m talking about, of course, the next iteration of D&D, what many are calling 5th Edition, but what Wizards is calling D&D Next. D&D being Dungeons and Dragons, that venerable brand name that instantly conveys to anyone who hears it exactly what we are talking about.
Wizards has been play testing their new system for a year. When it first began, the rules were universally panned, and its concepts drew scorn from nearly everyone involved. Even the very fact that they were doing a play test drew scorn, as it was seen as a deliberate attempt to capitalize on the process used to catapult the PFRPG into its position of dominance. Only the apologists and die-hard WotC fans were happy with anything Wizards was doing.
A year later things have changed dramatically. I am getting regular requests from customers to host play test games. Gaming blogs all around the internet are talking about how interesting the rules set has become. The play testers my store has for Alpha material are chomping at the bit for the updates I send them. The D&D Starter Box (often called the Red Box) has begun outselling the PFRPG Core Book and Beginner Box, to the point I can’t keep it in stock, and Wizards has run out themselves (albeit only briefly). This, despite the fact that the Red Box is still based on 4th Edition rules.
When D&D Next comes out, there are several more things that will be in Wizards corner. First and foremost is the brand name. Posters on these very boards still call sessions of Pathfinder "D&D" instead of Pathfinder. They use the term DM instead of GM. And when kids come in with Mom asking about how to play, they are always standing in front of the D&D section at first, as that is what is recognizable.
Then there is the celebrity presence. Wil Wheaton, the Penny Arcade guys, and many of the internet's most-read blogs will pick up D&D Next and run with it, without prompting from Wizards. Why? Because their fan base knows what D&D is, and they will be curious to know what happened with the next edition.
Finally, the mass market will be inundated with D&D Next product. It will be front and center at all kinds of places where the PFRPG barely gets a mention. Target and Wal Mart have made big strides into the gaming market, lately, and with the massive success of things like Fantasy Flights’ Star Wars properties and Days of Wonder’s Small World and Ticket to Ride, they will be looking for the next step. Wizards will do their utmost to position their game as that next step. I have no doubt that Barnes and Noble will happily shift all PFRPG product back to the second tier, giving top billing back to a recognizable brand name.
And WotC will want to capitalize on all of this. They know that how LFR was administered was a mistake. They know that PFS has been a large reason for the PFRPG’s success and visibility at game stores and conventions all across the world. They have the single most successful organized play system in existence with The DCI, a massive database of current Magic players and former D&D players that they can start sending email to (and already are).
Have no doubts: WotC WILL create an organized play system to compete with PFS. Every step they have made with The DCI in recent years has pointed to the fact that in-store organized play is their singular focus. I predict the return of Living Greyhawk, and it will be huge.
Paizo and the Pathfinder Society needs to know this. We need to not rest complacently on our laurels as this looms on the horizon for next year. The amazing growth in Society can’t simply be tucked away and forgotten, not to be used. Nor can what caused that growth be ignored.
The fourth season of PFS, while amazing for story and challenge, forgot about capturing the new player. Fewer tier 1-x options were published for this season than ever before. At the same time, plans were put in place to REMOVE existing tier 1-x options. To make matters worse, months would go by with no new tier 1-x scenario being published, months during which conventions and game days struggled to find options. And, now, going into the summer, with all kinds of major conventions on the horizon for the fall, coordinators have 7 new scenarios to choose from, only one of which is tier 1-x.
Why is this a problem, you ask? Why can’t the new players play the older 1-x scenarios? Because the available pool of veteran players who will sit with them and “show them the ropes” is busy playing the new stuff. There are hugely anticipated, story-impacting scenarios coming out that veteran players HAVE to play in order to get the boon that they need for their Shadow or Lantern Lodge character. There are high level scenarios that showcase everything that was going on in Season 4, and brings all those stories to a dramatic conclusion. There are higher level special events offering double gold and cool items and a “deadly” factor unequaled in standard PFS play. There are other PFS players who have a magical elixir that gets more powerful provided there are more players who own it at the table.
New PFS players dipping their toes into these waters can’t experience any of that, and aren't even aware of most of it. Thus, the veterans will be off doing their thing, leaving those new players to fend for themselves.
Obviously, there will be exceptions. Obviously, there will be plenty of us who find a way to create new players despite the challenges.
But I am starting to see the signs that complacency has set in.
And that is dangerous.
Paizo, I know you are aware that you have created an awesome organized play system. I know you are aware that your game still needs constant marketing to be successful. Please remember that you need to include that existing market when looking toward new players.
PFS has grown; you need to begin to publish more adventures. PFS needs to continue to grow; you need to publish more entry level adventures so that veterans can sit with their trainees. PFS has become a massive volunteer network; you need to begin to show those volunteers that they MEAN something to you and that you are aware of everything they have done for you.
I am truly looking forward to seeing what will happen with Season 5. Because that is the season that will put Paizo and PFS in the correct position to deal with what comes Next, for it is on the horizon for next summer. Don’t ignore it.
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I work at Barnes & Noble, and D&D is already top-tier in presentation and volume. But not in sales.
And you know what the biggest seller for them has been the last few years? PF-friendly map-boxes and the re-released 3.5 rules.
When 4th came out, there was a huge boom, and equally dramatic bust. Players who hadn't played in a decade or more were scooping up the new edition, hungering for info on it, slavering at the maw.
Hordes of people gave it a shot.
And still a running joke about it is "Name one module"
PF came out on top and is surging, mainly to excellent gamer-led decision making and top-tier storytelling.
I expect similar results here unless WotC has changed their management style, story beating brand recognition. My estimation is they'll have a solid initial product, but management will push the developers toward making endless player-product (PC focused, not DM/campaign focused).
Then they'll revisit for the 3rd-5th time those 1st edition modules we knew and loved, and we'll realize how much we like the original gaming system: which is best represented by Pathfinder and it's Gygaxian disciples, Jacobs/Mona/etc.
The fact is, the success of the new system will tie directly into how compatible it is with 3.x, and right now 3.x is dominated by PF.
Now, Monte Cook may blow me away with a great new system, but new systems have to face my 30+ years of D&D lore that I find valuable when running games. Heck, if I wanted a better gaming system, I wouldn't be playing D&D-based games. (Hero System has my heart there.)
PF & PFS doesn't rest on its laurels, and listens to its customer base.
WotC has a history of ignoring its customer base. Remember how 4th edition was for the new generation too? But then, wait, we needed the old generation so how about we revisit 1st edition modules?
How about not...
I loved them, but I can revisit them anytime I want, and have done conversions of them to 3.x-PF.
Yes, there's potential with D&D Next for WotC to reclaim D&D's player base. But it's still WotC.
Funnily enough, I imagine the media surge will ultimately bring more players into gaming, which in turn will bring more players into PFS.
Cheers, JMK
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Monte Cook is no longer involved in D&D Next.
The reason is because WotC was removing the focus from rules and placing it on story. Monte didn't want to go that route. I will admit that this is hearsay, but I trust my sources.
Living Greyhawk was hugely successful due to story interaction. WotC is fully aware of that, and will go back to it.
Being complacent is saying things exactly like what was just said above: "It's WotC. They'll still screw up. Have no fear."
Ask Research In Motion how that worked out when Apple started to break into Blackberry's market. Ask the US automobile industry how that worked out when Japan started to bring vehicles to the US. Ask Blockbuster how that worked out when Netflix began offering direct mail options.
Expecting a company to simply repeat old mistakes is a fool's gambit.
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I wish WOTC the best of luck with D&D Next. There are still some good developers there that haven't been fired yet. I cringe to think how they'll butcher Greyhawk (if they revisit it) without Erik to keep them true.
EDIT: Yes, I sound complacent. That's because I don't think that leopards can change their spots. I think Paizo must have that competition to keep them sharp however. I look forward to seeing what WOTC comes up with to break the cycle and earn back some credibility.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Well, Pathfinder Society, and the Pathfinder RPG are mature-market products. If you're looking to catch the eye of beginners, a start-up product is a more likely bet than a product line that's been around 4 years.
Last year, for the first time, the "Free RPG Day" adventure was not for beginning PCs, and we're repeating that decision this year.
We are also retiring First Steps II and III. And First Steps I, by itself, is sort of an odd duck. It's the least exciting of the three, and srves to introduce four or five of the (soon to be) eight factions with errand-running around Absalom.
But focusing on the fight in the Worldwound is a good direction. It's certainly an easier "elevator pitch" to new players than the sophisticated shenanigans with the Aspis Consortium around Magnimar, or the continuing escapades of the Blakros family.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I wish WOTC the best of luck with D&D Next.
This is another reason to not be complacent, and one I forgot to mention. Make no mistake: a healthy D&D brand is good for the role playing game industry. There are a lot of people who will want to see that come to fruition.
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Then they'll revisit for the 3rd-5th time those 1st edition modules we knew and loved, and we'll realize how much we like the original gaming system: which is best represented by Pathfinder and it's Gygaxian disciples, Jacobs/Mona/etc.
Gygax is responsible for as many of the faults of the original systems as he is for the positives. He was the one that wanted system mastery to be a major part of play, which is why we still have "how much optimization" arguments every week and major issues with balance between players at the table. He literally and intentionally made trap choices to reward players with system mastery.
Cook is very much in that tradition as well. However I did see an interview where Cook conceded that martial characters shouldn't act primarily as the caster's caddies in later levels as Gygax envisioned. I honestly got happy by that comment.
Simply put, there is a reason that PFS normal play ends just over halfway through the game laid out in the books. I.e., simply cut off play before differences in table system mastery and inter-player balance problems get too large. This was a nice solution to the problems created by the faults in the system inherited from Gygax. This is also why people complain about season 4, which assumes decent player system mastery.
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The reason is because WotC was removing the focus from rules and placing it on story. Monte didn't want to go that route. I will admit that this is hearsay, but I trust my sources.
I question that, based on how story driven and rules light his Numenera stuff seems to be.
However, I agree with most of what you are saying.
Im very interested to see how much of an impact Next will have on PFRPG and PFS specifically.
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While I agree in part that DnD next will be competitive with pathfinder, I think it won't be along the lines that seem to be the core of the argument. Much like listening to the hardcore '1st', '2nd' and '4th' defenders, it's not the advancement of the game they love, so they reject it outright, clinging to the old ideal version for them.
I for one, am a permanent fanatic for pathfinder because wotc threw everything I loved in my face. It was a deal breaker, and I refuse now to go back to DnD because of it. I will espouse Pathfinder's virtues from here on out, no matter what wotc does, even if it gives up, says ok, we'll support 3x again, and even offer everyone their old positions back with competitive wages.
Many are also ignoring the fact that the 'market' for what it is, has already been a competitive venue. Games like shadowrun, cyberpunk, and many others draw their respective fanatics away from PF and DnD. This era of gaming is no longer a pissing match between two megapowers, and if everyone still clings to the 'my game is better than yours' attitude, then what we'll likely see is everyone dumping out for a video/console version of RP.
DnD has to survive. There's no other way about it. It is the reference everyone uses to describe their own game to, with the additional 'but' in there. It does not, however, hold the destiny everyone assumes, where there's one to rule them all. People are going to react to this just like they did to 3x, 4th, pathfinder, and any other iteration. they'll try it, and then stick with what they know. They'll argue for or against it, because they want to be heard.
Hasbro can't 'wow' me with new material. It can't 'wow' me with rules streamlined any better than they did with 3x. I got tired of elminster and kelben jumping in to save the day on 80% of their novels. I highly doubt there's going to be an amazing shift just because right now the results are coming in that everyone wants to playtest more.
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I certainly wouldn't say the first iteration of the D&D Next rules got universal scorn. The bulk of the scorn I witnessed it receiving was from 4e enthusiasts because it moves away from quite a bit of 4e's development direction. In the online areas I frequent, there was a lot of enthusiasm for the public play test - or at least curiosity. There was also a lot of skepticism that WotC couldn't pull off their goals.
That said, while there is still a large body of 4e-fan critics decrying being jilted at the altar, there does seem to be a growing core of players interested in where it is going. So I agree that D&D Next will put up a pretty good marketplace challenge for Pathfinder. Hell, as much as I like Pathfinder and Paizo's take on design, I'm interested in D&D Next too. So far, in many ways, it does play simpler and characters are an easier build. It harkens back to 1e/2e in substantial ways and, I think, has a good chance of drawing some OSR fans into its sphere of influence.
Right now, there's still so much in flux that it's hard to see where it will all go. They could have a big winner, an also ran, or a flop. They could manage it brilliantly or cock it up completely (this is WotC we're talking about). But, all things coming off with average competency, and I think D&D Next will product a strong showing with a product that will do better among Pathfinder fans than 4e did.
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PFS has grown; you need to begin to publish more adventures. PFS needs to continue to grow; you need to publish more entry level adventures so that veterans can sit with their trainees. PFS has become a massive volunteer network; you need to begin to show those volunteers that they MEAN something to you and that you are aware of everything they have done for you.
So if I understood your feedback correctly, your feedback is:
1) Produce more tier 1-5 scenarios.2) Produce more scenarios in general.
3) Do more to support new players.
4) Support the GM network in some undetermined way.
5) Create innovative ideas to be better than the D&D Next OP program.
Is that right?
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Well, Pathfinder Society, and the Pathfinder RPG are mature-market products. If you're looking to catch the eye of beginners, a start-up product is a more likely bet than a product line that's been around 4 years.
Last year, for the first time, the "Free RPG Day" adventure was not for beginning PCs, and we're repeating that decision this year.
We are also retiring First Steps II and III. And First Steps I, by itself, is sort of an odd duck. It's the least exciting of the three, and srves to introduce four or five of the (soon to be) eight factions with errand-running around Absalom.
But focusing on the fight in the Worldwound is a good direction. It's certainly an easier "elevator pitch" to new players than the sophisticated shenanigans with the Aspis Consortium around Magnimar, or the continuing escapades of the Blakros family.
I'm not sure I like that emphasis. Even for mature-market products, easy on-ramps for new customers are important.
Losing First Steps (II and III) sounds like a bad idea. Not focusing Free RPG Day on new players sounds worse.The focus on the Worldwound is an easier pitch, but I wonder how many new players are drawn in by the metastory as opposed to the particular adventure or the overall game.
We have offerings on the 2013/2014 schedule that will replace First Steps. 15 hours to play through all three parts of First Steps is a bit much to ask of a brand new player. So, we have some ideas with how to improve on those introductory experiences that we learned from First Steps.
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Monte Cook is no longer involved in D&D Next.
The reason is because WotC was removing the focus from rules and placing it on story. Monte didn't want to go that route. I will admit that this is hearsay, but I trust my sources.
I've been wondering about his departure too, particularly after Stan! turned down a job offer and blogged about it. Since Monte said that his beef was with management rather than the design team and design of the game, I suspected that his reason for leaving was similar to Stan!'s for not taking the offer - the freedom to work on other, non-WotC projects.
WotC has a non-competitive clause or something of that nature that prevents their designers/developers from working freelance on other projects. That's a policy that employees can request to be released from and they turned Stan!'s request for that down - so he turned down a permanent (or as permanent as WotC allows) position. Considering how soon Monte's Numenera Kickstarter debuted after he announced he was leaving WotC again, I figured he wanted to work on that too and, like Stan!, had his release from the restriction turned down.
I have absolutely no evidence of this. It was just something that occurred to me after Stan!'s blog posts.
We have offerings on the 2013/2014 schedule that will replace First Steps. 15 hours to play through all three parts of First Steps is a bit much to ask of a brand new player. So, we have some ideas with how to improve on those introductory experiences that we learned from First Steps.
Looking forward to the new introductory material.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Ah. That sounds better. I'd gotten the impression it was going away without a similar replacement.
We have offerings on the 2013/2014 schedule that will replace First Steps. 15 hours to play through all three parts of First Steps is a bit much to ask of a brand new player. So, we have some ideas with how to improve on those introductory experiences that we learned from First Steps.
It won't be September, but I anticipate during the first months of 2014.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Then they'll revisit for the 3rd-5th time those 1st edition modules we knew and loved, and we'll realize how much we like the original gaming system: which is best represented by Pathfinder and it's Gygaxian disciples, Jacobs/Mona/etc.Gygax is responsible for as many of the faults of the original systems as he is for the positives. He was the one that wanted system mastery to be a major part of play, which is why we still have "how much optimization" arguments every week and major issues with balance between players at the table. He literally and intentionally made trap choices to reward players with system mastery.
Cook is very much in that tradition as well. However I did see an interview where Cook conceded that martial characters shouldn't act primarily as the caster's caddies in later levels as Gygax envisioned. I honestly got happy by that comment.
Simply put, there is a reason that PFS normal play ends just over halfway through the game laid out in the books. I.e., simply cut off play before differences in table system mastery and inter-player balance problems get too large. This was a nice solution to the problems created by the faults in the system inherited from Gygax. This is also why people complain about season 4, which assumes decent player system mastery.
A game without system mastery isn't a game. Even checkers has system mastery. You seem to believe that removing system mastery will make more people want to play the game. I think it will make less people play. Even 4e with its "all classes are equal/identical" didn't stop system mastery. D&D isn't popular because it is an interactive story telling system, it is popular because it is an interactive storytelling game.
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My group won't buy anything from WOTC period. They are so pissed off at shelling out $1,000+ dollars on 3.0 products only to have rules revised and another $1,000+ dollars with 3.5 products only to have all this stuff become pretty worthless when 4.0 came out. To them it does not matter how good the rules are they just expect them to be thrown out and re-done again every 3 years so WOTC can make money and ignore the needs of the players. For me it's Pathfinder or nothing, I'm all in.
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It won't be September, but I anticipate during the first months of 2014.Ah. That sounds better. I'd gotten the impression it was going away without a similar replacement.
We have offerings on the 2013/2014 schedule that will replace First Steps. 15 hours to play through all three parts of First Steps is a bit much to ask of a brand new player. So, we have some ideas with how to improve on those introductory experiences that we learned from First Steps.
That's good to hear. We need more low level content. In the latest con I'm going to, a new player literally couldn't play even one full day without a pregen. Out of 8 slots, 4-18 and 4-19 are it unless you want a pregen. As someone who likes to create new character, I cannot help thinking that is a little low.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Remember folks, this thread is about how PFS can stay strong and continue growing, not how upset we are at WotC or what's wrong with D&D. Let's stay on topic. I, for one, don't want to wade through dozens of near-identical WotC complaint posts in order to try and read about cool ideas for PFS.
Thanks.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Just think about the consequences if D&D Next doesn't hit the ball out of the park... I worry about Paizo if there isn't a vigorous competitor.
Very true. Not having competition breeds complacency. Look at what happened to WotC in the first place.
This doesn't mean that Paizo should be content with playing second fiddle, however. They should strive to remain on top.
PFS has grown; you need to begin to publish more adventures. PFS needs to continue to grow; you need to publish more entry level adventures so that veterans can sit with their trainees. PFS has become a massive volunteer network; you need to begin to show those volunteers that they MEAN something to you and that you are aware of everything they have done for you.So if I understood your feedback correctly, your feedback is:
1) Produce more tier 1-5 scenarios.
2) Produce more scenarios in general.
3) Do more to support new players.
4) Support the GM network in some undetermined way.
5) Create innovative ideas to be better than the D&D Next OP program.Is that right?
This is exactly what I want to see Paizo doing, because I know that will keep my own job of creating new players easy to accomplish.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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The fourth season of PFS, while amazing for story and challenge, forgot about capturing the new player. Fewer tier 1-x options were published for this season than ever before. At the same time, plans were put in place to REMOVE existing tier 1-x options. To make matters worse, months would go by with no new tier 1-x scenario being published, months during which conventions and game days struggled to find options. And, now, going into the summer, with all kinds of major conventions on the horizon for the fall, coordinators have 7 new scenarios to choose from, only one of which is tier 1-x.
Why is this a problem, you ask? Why can’t the new players play the older 1-x scenarios? Because the available pool of veteran players who will sit with them and “show them the ropes” is busy playing the new stuff. There are hugely anticipated, story-impacting scenarios coming out that veteran players HAVE to play in order to get the boon that they need for their Shadow or Lantern Lodge character. There are high level scenarios that showcase everything that was going on in Season 4, and brings all those stories to a dramatic conclusion. There are higher level special events offering double gold and cool items and a “deadly” factor unequaled in standard PFS play. There are other PFS players who have a magical elixir that gets more powerful provided there are more players who own it at the table.
New PFS players dipping their toes into these waters can’t experience any of that, and aren't even aware of most of it. Thus, the veterans will be off doing their thing, leaving those new players to fend for themselves.
I've seen this myself in the last couple conventions I've been to. Nobody wants to schedule the older scenarios because we know that most of the veteran players have already played them. But there has been a real dearth of low-level scenarios recently, which makes it hard to seat new players, particularly when there are only a couple newbies and therefore not enough to make up a whole table by themselves.
I hope that Season 5 will have more good low-level scenarios, and I agree with the OP that the focus on the Worldwound will be a great attention-grabber for new players!
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The DCI is a brilliant marketing tool as WotC potentially has the contact information for anyone who has played one or more of their games in a public setting, the efficacy of self reporting notwithstanding. However WotC's need to have tight-fisted control over Organized play will prevent any program created for D&D Next from having any sort of long term negative impact on Pathfinder Society.
Organized play for D&D Next will have tight restrictions on how and when events may be run. They will need to take place in retail stores that will be required to order kits. Those kits will contain promotional materials; many of which will never make it into the players' hands. Once the initial excitement subsides it will become clear that the aggravation will not be worth the reward.
Pathfinder Society will have the same advantage over many other organized play systems as it always has...it is almost entirely self-governed. While WotC would like to standardize and homogenize organized play, Paizo simply provides the tools and lets their application be up to individual play groups.
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An obvious thing to do: more balanced base classes in future products to keep people able to try new things. And new feat chains so old classes can be built in new and exciting ways. Quite literally, the feat system is one of the things that brought me to PF over 4th. 4th feats are.... underwhelming.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Do we have an ETA for D and D Next?
Summer next year. Likely a couple months before GenCon, where they will launch their first story arc.
The DCI is a brilliant marketing tool as WotC potentially has the contact information for anyone who has played one or more of their games in a public setting, the efficacy of self reporting notwithstanding. However WotC's need to have tight-fisted control over Organized play will prevent any program created for D&D Next from having any sort of long term negative impact on Pathfinder Society.
Organized play for D&D Next will have tight restrictions on how and when events may be run. They will need to take place in retail stores that will be required to order kits. Those kits will contain promotional materials; many of which will never make it into the players' hands. Once the initial excitement subsides it will become clear that the aggravation will not be worth the reward.
This is entirely inaccurate. The DCI has become even MORE accessible over the last few years. You can now sanction events out of your own basement and get promotional material sent to you for those events. I know coordinators who run all manner of major events out of places as odd as the food court of the local mall.
Stop assuming WotC doesn't know what it's doing. The resurgence of Magic and the absolute dominance of that game (with the DEATH of all those other games that were their competition being the result, by the way) proves that they know EXACTLY what they are doing with organized play.
Pathfinder Society will have the same advantage over many other organized play systems as it always has...it is almost entirely self-governed. While WotC would like to standardize and homogenize organized play, Paizo simply provides the tools and lets their application be up to individual play groups.
You should also stop assuming that people will remain content to do all of a company's work when they may see greener pastures behind another company's fences.
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A game without system mastery isn't a game. Even checkers has system mastery. You seem to believe that removing system mastery will make more people want to play the game. I think it will make less people play. Even 4e with its "all classes are equal/identical" didn't stop system mastery. D&D isn't popular because it is an interactive story telling system, it is popular because it is an interactive storytelling game.
All systems require some system mastery. However, you shouldn't intentionally make traps to fool new players. I've seen players nearly cry when they realized they've been had. For example, Powerful Sneak at level 11 increases sneak attack damage by 1.02 points per hit with 6d6 sneak for only -2 to hit on a class that struggle to hit. At level 2, the trade is -2 to hit off your +5 or so to hit for .17 extra damage. The only actual benefit is that you get to say that your sneak attacks are powerful.
Also, some degree of balance should be in the game at all levels of the game. For example, may last high level 3.5 campaign required the DM to make a reasonably-made rogue a demigod with special powers to even come close to balance the party consisting of a casting cleric and a fighter/mage. Even then it failed miserably as the DM was forced to decide between murdering the rogue at every opportunity or challenging the rest of the party.
PFS did a pretty good job so far of managing these issues as Paizo has been fairly responsive to criticism.
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That's good to hear. We need more low level content. In the latest con I'm going to, a new player literally couldn't play even one full day without a pregen. Out of 8 slots, 4-18 and 4-19 are it unless you want a pregen. As someone who likes to create new character, I cannot help thinking that is a little low.It won't be September, but I anticipate during the first months of 2014.Ah. That sounds better. I'd gotten the impression it was going away without a similar replacement.
We have offerings on the 2013/2014 schedule that will replace First Steps. 15 hours to play through all three parts of First Steps is a bit much to ask of a brand new player. So, we have some ideas with how to improve on those introductory experiences that we learned from First Steps.
Agreed. I'd like to see more 1-5 adventures per year than what we had in 4th season, as well. That said, even if whatever con you're talking about only wants to run 4th season, they should include early season stuff like The Disappeared and Rise of the Goblin Guild. Out of curiousity, since we live in the same area, what con are you talking about?
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That's good to hear. We need more low level content. In the latest con I'm going to, a new player literally couldn't play even one full day without a pregen. Out of 8 slots, 4-18 and 4-19 are it unless you want a pregen. As someone who likes to create new character, I cannot help thinking that is a little low.It won't be September, but I anticipate during the first months of 2014.Ah. That sounds better. I'd gotten the impression it was going away without a similar replacement.
We have offerings on the 2013/2014 schedule that will replace First Steps. 15 hours to play through all three parts of First Steps is a bit much to ask of a brand new player. So, we have some ideas with how to improve on those introductory experiences that we learned from First Steps.Agreed. I'd like to see more 1-5 adventures per year than what we had in 4th season, as well. That said, even if whatever con you're talking about only wants to run 4th season, they should include early season stuff like The Disappeared and Rise of the Goblin Guild. Out of curiousity, since we live in the same area, what con are you talking about?
Milwaukee Summer Revel. It tends to be a well-run con and is a reasonable drive.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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PFS has grown; you need to begin to publish more adventures. PFS needs to continue to grow; you need to publish more entry level adventures so that veterans can sit with their trainees. PFS has become a massive volunteer network; you need to begin to show those volunteers that they MEAN something to you and that you are aware of everything they have done for you.So if I understood your feedback correctly, your feedback is:
1) Produce more tier 1-5 scenarios.
2) Produce more scenarios in general.
3) Do more to support new players.
4) Support the GM network in some undetermined way.
5) Create innovative ideas to be better than the D&D Next OP program.Is that right?
This is exactly what I want to see Paizo doing, because I know that will keep my own job of creating new players easy to accomplish.
1. I think a steady stream of tier 1-x is very important. We need this to get/keep new players engaged in the current season story line so they can become involved more easily.
2. More scenarios overall would be good, so that increased production of low level scenarios doesn't impact the amount of higher level scenarios being produced.3. Absolutely agree. Not quite sure how to go about it though. Although it does seem to make sense that Free RPG day modules should be first level offerings.
4. There are multiple great suggestions on the various GM rewards threads.
5. As the PFS coordinator for my local FLGS I think some promotional material would be helpful. Something like a PDF of a monthly schedule that I could fill out and have posted in the store. Also maybe a special boon sheet that could be given out only to brand new players - my suggestion is a one time reroll for each of the following - an attack roll, a skill check and a saving throw.
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PFS has grown; you need to begin to publish more adventures. PFS needs to continue to grow; you need to publish more entry level adventures so that veterans can sit with their trainees. PFS has become a massive volunteer network; you need to begin to show those volunteers that they MEAN something to you and that you are aware of everything they have done for you.So if I understood your feedback correctly, your feedback is:
1) Produce more tier 1-5 scenarios.
2) Produce more scenarios in general.
3) Do more to support new players.
4) Support the GM network in some undetermined way.
5) Create innovative ideas to be better than the D&D Next OP program.Is that right?
I agree wholeheartedly with #1 & #2. I'm of the opinion that we're approaching (if not already beyond) the point where it would behoove Paizo to add another person or two and up their scenario release schedule. More and more threads are popping up from people who've played everything available, after which the only option is to run for no credit.
Which leads to the importance of #4, because some people will get bored with rerunning for no credit eventually, and wander off, which is bad, because they're the ones who we should be keeping on hand to help with #3, which grows the product line.
Also, #5 is going to come from a combination of new people with new ideas and established people who know how everything works, so #3 & #4 will lead to #5.
It's all connected, y'see ... :D
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While I'd love to see Paizo start publishing a greater quantity of scenarios, we don't know if the company can afford that extra manpower. More quantity = more cost, so it has to be a financial decision more than anything.
People aren't going to suddenly start playing more PFS, thus buying more scenarios to run, just because there are more available. So there won't be an immediate increase in revenue to make up that cost. It's more of a long term investment in keeping PFS players engaged longer before they run out of scenarios to play, so the exact value to the company will be harder to determine.
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While I'd love to see Paizo start publishing a greater quantity of scenarios, . . . (more good stuff)
I have no idea what the revenue stream for scenarios looks like, but just from the proliferation of Venture Captains I would say that PFS has grown some since year 0 and 1 when we were getting 2 scenarios per month. Wouldn't you? A third scenario per month dedicated either to low level play or to special circumstance scenarios would be nice.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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While I'd love to see Paizo start publishing a greater quantity of scenarios, we don't know if the company can afford that extra manpower. More quantity = more cost, so it has to be a financial decision more than anything.
Why?
They are the industry leader. They need to start acting like it. They have the money. They have the sales figures. They have the presence. Instead, they continue to act like a small house publisher. They are complacent.
People aren't going to suddenly start playing more PFS, thus buying more scenarios to run, just because there are more available. So there won't be an immediate increase in revenue to make up that cost.
Yes, there will be. The many people who have started threads recently about running out of things to play will absolutely buy everything that comes out, as will coordinators like myself who always need more options.
And instead of looking at the revenue increase needed to make up for new production, a business should be looking at the increased revenue over the last few years and comparing that with the margin they were okay making back in the beginning. If, for instance, the goal during Season 2 was to produce 2 scenarios per month to accommodate 10,000 active players, why is it that now that there are 16,000 active players that same number of scenarios is acceptable?
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Will D&D Next be a serious threat to Paizo? That remains to be seen... but I do have a feeling that the "flavor of the day" rule will be in effect. i.e. when a new restaurant opens up, it is generally very popular in the first few months as people flock to check it out... it does bring down patronage at the existing restaurants in the area, but eventually people will return as the "newness" dies down. One thing I have seen happen is that the existing restaurants change their menus, management, decor, heck just about anything to "drum up interest" and compete with the new "flavor of the day"... and sometimes these changes are not chosen wisely...
I really appreciate Drogon's pragmatic views, esp. from a retailer's point of view... and the "don't get complacent" warning to Paizo. I also like Doug Miles' comment about wanting there to be strong competition from D&D Next- rivalry makes competitors do the best they can. We will all benefit from that. Yes, Paizo should think about ways to continuously improve their existing processes- a smart company does that and I think they will. I haven't participated in D&D Next Beta so I can't say if I think it is a true "threat" though really.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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According to Forbes, Wizards is providing a four-day, level-1-through-10 all-Gen-Con experience.
Cool. We should improve the idea and then steal it.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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A game without system mastery isn't a game. Even checkers has system mastery. You seem to believe that removing system mastery will make more people want to play the game. I think it will make less people play. Even 4e with its "all classes are equal/identical" didn't stop system mastery. D&D isn't popular because it is an interactive story telling system, it is popular because it is an interactive storytelling game.
All systems require some system mastery. However, you shouldn't intentionally make traps to fool new players. I've seen players nearly cry when they realized they've been had. For example, Powerful Sneak at level 11 increases sneak attack damage by 1.02 points per hit with 6d6 sneak for only -2 to hit on a class that struggle to hit. At level 2, the trade is -2 to hit off your +5 or so to hit for .17 extra damage. The only actual benefit is that you get to say that your sneak attacks are powerful.
Also, some degree of balance should be in the game at all levels of the game. For example, may last high level 3.5 campaign required the DM to make a reasonably-made rogue a demigod with special powers to even come close to balance the party consisting of a casting cleric and a fighter/mage. Even then it failed miserably as the DM was forced to decide between murdering the rogue at every opportunity or challenging the rest of the party.
PFS did a pretty good job so far of managing these issues as Paizo has been fairly responsive to criticism.
I have doubts that the traps in D&D were actually intentional.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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My group won't buy anything from WOTC period. They are so pissed off at shelling out $1,000+ dollars on 3.0 products only to have rules revised and another $1,000+ dollars with 3.5 products only to have all this stuff become pretty worthless when 4.0 came out. To them it does not matter how good the rules are they just expect them to be thrown out and re-done again every 3 years so WOTC can make money and ignore the needs of the players. For me it's Pathfinder or nothing, I'm all in.
If you think Paizo isn't eventually going to come out with a new version of Pathfinder that you are going to have to buy then you don't understand the publishing industry very well. "Publish or Perish" is the motto and Splatbooks and modules will only take you so far.
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(Off topic but about this thread)
Please realize that WotC and Hasbro are staffed with effective business managers and happily gather free intelligence from places like this. When you (generic) describe all of the ways that you expect D&D Next to fail, you are feeding them information on what they can do to bring old D&D fans back into the fold.
Good thing? Bad thing? Time will tell. Personally, I hope all the best for the D&D brand, it's what I grew up with and the reason I play PFRPG. If it succeeds and sends PF and PFS into competitive awesomeness, great! If it succeeds and buries PF and PFS, that'd really be too bad and I'd have to buy new books....again.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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(Off topic but about this thread)
Please realize that WotC and Hasbro are staffed with effective business managers and happily gather free intelligence from places like this. When you (generic) describe all of the ways that you expect D&D Next to fail, you are feeding them information on what they can do to bring old D&D fans back into the fold.
Good thing? Bad thing? Time will tell. Personally, I hope all the best for the D&D brand, it's what I grew up with and the reason I play PFRPG. If it succeeds and sends PF and PFS into competitive awesomeness, great! If it succeeds and buries PF and PFS, that'd really be too bad and I'd have to buy new books....again.
I find it interesting that you linked to my post, Abyssian. Mostly I find it interesting that you seem unaware that everything I cited in there as something for Paizo to do is something that WotC ALREADY does. There is nothing in there for them to glean for free. They've already done all the work for me, which I happily gleaned from them.
The only thing my post will do is make them smile at each other and realize they're on the right track. And, guess what? They are. And as Doug alluded to, that is good.