Goblin Squad Member
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Hello Pathfinder community and Goblinworks staff!
I am new to the forums and not native english speaking. So i apologize in advance for any spelling errors.
On the subject of this thread:
I have searched the forums to learn whether character collision will be a feature of pfo or not.
I found a post from Mark Kalmes dated from November 2011:
"This will probably be determined mostly by the engine. We aren't really scoped for making too big of a change to the underlying physics."
Since Goblinworks applies "Unity", what will it be? Character collision or not?
Personally, i would like to see a traditional longsword/shield fighter blocking an entrance. Meanwhile the wizard is tossing spells from behind at the opponent.
Does one of you got information on this? Do you even think this feature should be implemented?
With regards
D.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's a topic that has come up a few times. From my perception, it seems as though most are in favor of it, with some reservations. Specifically, concern regarding people harassing others by blocking entrances, exits and other choke points (particularly in towns) hoping that others will attack them (and face the reprecussions for doing so) to get them to move.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is the best idea about Collision that I recall from prior threads:
By default, characters should be able to walk through other characters. However, a character could choose to block other characters from walking through him, but this would count as an attack on those other characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I recommend a mechanic I remember from way back in Final Fantasy IX. When you first walk into another character you will collided with them and they'll block your path, but if you keep walking in the same direction for one or two seconds the collision will turn off and you can pass through them. This way people can't get stuck or permanently blocked by other players.
In combat though full collision should be on all the time, allowing defenders to hold choke points and attackers to push formations forward and more effectively divide and conquer and such.
I'd also suggest having some physics based knock back, allowing larger or charging characters to knock people aside, though that should really be handled by CMB and CMD and using maneuvers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... a character could choose to block other characters from walking through him, but this would count as an attack on those other characters.
I would add that it probably makes the most sense if the blocking characters has to explicitly block individual characters. That makes it easier to count the blocking as an attack, and also allows the system to eventually determine how many characters he should be able to simultaneously block.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why am I envisioning twin zergs of players attempting to block one another across opposing goal lines in a reversed match of tug-o-war?
A scrum without a ball?
Sounds more like Red Rover
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Goblin Squad Member
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Welcome Dergard! Dario summed it up. Just wanted to say hello. :)
Errr... and Nihimon. =D
Thank you.
Reading your replies, i understand this has been discussed before in detail. I will take my time and search the forums more thoroughly.
On the topic 'blocking where it is not desirable': GW could implement squeezing as slotable feat. You even could build whole fighting styles around that. Gnomes squeezing into opponents space, getting opportunity with the right skillset and such.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Age of Conan has character collision. It also has an ability usable to anyone out of combat (doesn't require being feated or anything like that) called crouch which decreases movement speed but lets them pass through other characters. I never encountered harassment through bodyblocking in my long history within that game (which had its fair share of players trying to harass others by any means possible)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Blocking has been used for a long time. In Ultima Online collision was the default and groups of players would blob the door of the bank in Britain all the time, just for fun. In the public dungeons there were groups that would form a blocking maneuver in a hallway or doorway so other members of their team could kill the best monster with the best loot (groups that were that organized usually deserved the loot imho).
Monsters blocked too, and in the swamps Lizardmen were abundant and could surround you preventing escape and eventually beating you down until death. (They weren't very powerful, but once you were surrounded it was only a matter of time before you died.)
Other games have had oversized characters that could block a doorway by just sitting there and going AFK....it was very annoying (can't remember the game, but they were ogre characters and were huge).
I like the feat or skill method, and I do remember the 2-3 second delay in movement as you pushed through a blocker...that seemed to work. I think once you engage in battle collision should be part of the game physics. IT would also be very cool to see things like a large explosion or catapult rock hit near a group and send them all flying away from the point of impact.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I vote for collision at all times, even sneaking or invisible. It should take a special spell or high level sneak feat to bypass collision.
In combat, I agree. Out of combat, not so much. Too easy to make life hell for other players by blocking doorways, vendor access and such in settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I vote for collision at all times, even sneaking or invisible. It should take a special spell or high level sneak feat to bypass collision.In combat, I agree. Out of combat, not so much. Too easy to make life hell for other players by blocking doorways, vendor access and such in settlements.
You were on the Cimmeria server weren't you?
Anyways, to your point: Blocking doorways and vendor access has its own benefits and consequences within a settlement governed by PC's. I actually looking forward to it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I vote for collision at all times, even sneaking or invisible.
You're right that a guard blocking a doorway should also be able to block characters he can't see.
I'm actually going back to the first suggestion I posted, where your ability to block other players is a toggle, and you are flagged as an Attacker if you block anyone (unless you are also flagged as an Enforcer or something similar in your Settlement).
Or maybe something simpler where "blocking" doesn't cause any flags, but instead there's a Test of Strength that determines whether or not the blocker can get shoved out of the way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I vote for collision at all times, even sneaking or invisible.You're right that a guard blocking a doorway should also be able to block characters he can't see.
I'm actually going back to the first suggestion I posted, where your ability to block other players is a toggle, and you are flagged as an Attacker if you block anyone (unless you are also flagged as an Enforcer or something similar in your Settlement).
Or maybe something simpler where "blocking" doesn't cause any flags, but instead there's a Test of Strength that determines whether or not the blocker can get shoved out of the way.
Maybe a Test of Dexterity to get past a blocker, too? A stealthed rogue can possibly slip by without even being noticed, if the blocker is a bruiser and not overly perceptive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with different rules for in and out of combat is that the game is full PvP, there will be little to no difference between being and combat and not being in combat because combat can happen at any given moment. It'll be hard to differentiate between when people should be blocked and when people shouldn't be.
I support there being a difference, but not sure how they'll pull it off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@avari3
No, I was on Aquilonia: European RP-PvP
@Vancent
In most of the MMOs I have played as well as in some offline games, the game is able to separate between "in combat" and "out of combat". It usually works fine. Don't ask me how it is done mechanically :)
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Now concerning collision that is always on and can only be circumvented by high dex or such:
It is easy to make life hard for fellow players by blocking them off in situations where it doesn't really make sense. I can certainly see that it would be great and fun for a secret meeting taking place in a building to have a big halforc guard blocking the entrance to unwanted eavesdroppers and you would need high strength to push past past him or high dex to slip by but there could be other situations where it would just be sooo annoying, easy to exploit and/or not making sense.
You can trap people inside buildings (can be fun if RPd but can also be used as griefing), prevent people from getting to a marketplace/bank/corpse or from moving at all.
In Darkfall for example, a group can surround a person completely and then stay there indefinitely while they go for lunch, watch movies or whatever and the poor dude in the middle is completely stuck.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the default should be blocking at all times, unless you have trained Acrobatics to tumble through the players area, or you have trained Bull Rush to push someone out of the way. Blocking or pushing someone out of the way should not be combat triggers.
Imbicatus, do you really think that a group of "big guys" should be able to pack in around a door in a Settlement and force you to get the Attacker Flag if you want to get past them?
[Edit] I want to clarify that I used this example to refer to a situation where a character could not use Acrobatics or Bull Rush to get out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the default should be blocking at all times, unless you have trained Acrobatics to tumble through the players area, or you have trained Bull Rush to push someone out of the way. Blocking or pushing someone out of the way should not be combat triggers.Imbicatus, do you really think that a group of "big guys" should be able to pack in around a door in a Settlement and force you to get the Attacker Flag if you want to get past them?
[Edit] I want to clarify that I used this example to refer to a situation where a character could not use Acrobatics or Bull Rush to get out.
No, but I don't see how they wouldn't be able to use bull/rush acrobatics unless they were stopping a closed door from opening. If that was the case, then it would be easy enough to allow doors to open both inward and outward. You could also simply set an opening door as an irresistible force, gently moving anyone out of the doorway.
More importantly though, I don't want a line of fighters forming a shield wall in a broken gateway to be just walked though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, but I don't see how they wouldn't be able to use bull/rush acrobatics...
Do you think that Acrobatics and Bull Rush should let a character move through a line of enemies standing 10 deep? Isn't there a rational limit at some point?
More importantly though, I don't want a line of fighters forming a shield wall in a broken gateway to be just walked though.
Thinking about the real world, it's a simple thing for a Drill Sergeant to walk through a line of troops standing 10 deep. The key is that the troops are letting him do so.
That's why I think it all needs to hinge on the intent of the blocker. If he's intending to block someone, then he does, but that's an aggressive action.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, but I don't see how they wouldn't be able to use bull/rush acrobatics...Do you think that Acrobatics and Bull Rush should let a character move through a line of enemies standing 10 deep? Isn't there a rational limit at some point?
For the bull rush maybe, but not for the acrobatics. Basically it's squirming you way around, over, or under the person blocking the space. You can keep doing as long as you want.
There will be other options too, once magic comes into play. Jump, Fly, and Dimension Door will let you completely bypass someone trying to be a roadblock.
I agree the potential for griefing is there, but the benefits to combat outweigh the negatives,especially if there are skills that can be trained that will negate the griefing potential while still allowing meaningful martial control of the battlefield in combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Welcome to the forum, Dergard!
I agree that collisions could be an interesting part of the combat system. Out of combat, I like the delayed pass-through. Initiating a combat every time two people bump into each other does seem a bit excessive, especially if it results in a move toward chaotic in the alignment score of one or both participants. Making a block require an action might help.
If standing in place and getting bumped into makes you more chaotic, then paladins and monks will want to make sure they're in an out-of-the-way location every time they go away from the keyboard.