Aura of Courage lets me share the pally's smite with his mount, using the paladin's bonus. The mount has the celestial template, so gets a smite with his own HD to damage once a day.
If they both smite the same target, the smite is coming from different sources. Does the mount get his own smite and the pally's smite, or would only the highest one apply?
I am confused since they are from different sources, and although it seems like it should be a sacred bonus, it is an untyped bonus.
Thanks!
Untyped bonuses stack. Sacred bonuses do not. So they stack. Hurrah!
I am happy to agree, but it seems cheesy. What if you had two paladins, could they Aura of Courage each other and then activate their own smite? Seems possible to double dip this way, although it's not what I am going for. Any body else want to weigh in?
Untyped bonus stack, except when they come from the same source. I would argue that both sources are Smite, and therefore wouldn't stack.
Okay then, here are both sides of the argument. The aura either stacks with the horse's smite evil he gets from being celestial or it doesn't. Any rules we can bring to bear, or it is a coin toss?
Well, I can't remember where on the forum but James Jacobs has stated that effects from the same source don't stack. Since Aura of Justice can be viewed as spending 2 smites to let your friends use Smite Evil, it would not help the celestial horse to use Smite Evil as well. It would be Smite Evil in both cases. The bonuses would overlap, not stack. As such, the celestial horse would get the paladin's charisma bonus to attack, the paladin's level to damage etc. This will be better than what the celestial horse has as a bonus to charisma (probably).
Let me phrase it to you this way: If the Paladin uses Smite Evil on an enemy 1 round and then again the next round, do you think he should get double the regular bonuses?
Hint: The answers is no, that doesn't work.
You have an activation issue.
Using the Aura is a free action, this grants the ally(or allies) the ability to use Smite Evil and allows for the Paladin to use Smite Evil the same round.
Smite Evil is a swift action to use. You are limited to one swift action per round. The mount would still only be able to use either its own 1xday smite or the one granted by the paladin.
'Stacking' never occurs or becomes even a remote issue as you are unable to activate both during a single round.
As an aside, I believe there was a ruling that you count as your ally for effects and so Aura of Justice only really 'costs' 1 use of LoH technically, you would gain a Smite Evil attack as well from the Aura.
Skylancer4, you raise an interesting issue, but there is always more than one round in a game. The horse could activate his and then the next round, the paladin could turn on the aura. I don't see that as an issue. Claxon seems to be saying that even though the bonuses are untyped and might stack RAW, since the Aura is like a smite, they come from the same source, and should not stack. Avianfoo says they should stack because they are untyped. Both positions seem defensible. Is it back to a coin toss then?
Bah I skimmed the Aura and thought it said it lasted one turn, not 1 minute.
That being the case, Smite Evil is an ongoing magical effect. As both the celestial template and the ability granted from the Aura are the same, 'Smite Evil' as a source with differing values, the most effective (read highest bonus) would be in effect. At least until the 1 minute time limit hit, in which case the celestial would possibly still be in effect.
The smite is still the source. There is no stacking.
It is like trying to climb to 5 foot ladders at the same time. You can do it, but you won't get any higher.
Not only that, but smite references the attacker's HD so it can't stack.
It would be no different than a paladin activating two smites on himself in the same round. He can do it but it won't double the smite damage.
As I found out a while back there is no rule preventing the paladin from activating more than one smite. It is just a waste to do so.
wraithstrike, the aura uses the paladin's level, while the smite evil uses the horses HD, so the vaules will be different. I can understand the argrument for only the highest one working.
However there is the case of Smite Evil, and say Smite Chaos... Two differing sources. If you are really trying to squeeze out some numbers that should work.
I'm not trying to squeeze out the numbers, just trying to figure out what my 11th level Pally can do with his newly celestial mount. Neither has smite Chaos. What would that look like, anyway? Telling the monster to clean up his room?
wraithstrike, the aura uses the paladin's level, while the smite evil uses the horses HD, so the vaules will be different. I can understand the argrument for only the highest one working.
I know the hd are different. My point is that they won't stack since they work off of a certain amount of HD.
I just used the paladin activating smite twice for himself as another example.
Gotcha. There are advantages to the paladin activating it twice if he is fighting certain opponents. Against evil outsiders, dragons, etc, he gets double his level in damage on the first hit of the smite, so if he has smites to burn, he could resmite the same person and get double damage again on the first strike of the new smite. Not a thing to do if you are running out of smites, but it would be useful sometimes.
I'm not trying to squeeze out the numbers, just trying to figure out what my 11th level Pally can do with his newly celestial mount. Neither has smite Chaos. What would that look like, anyway? Telling the monster to clean up his room?
Smite Chaos comes from the champion of Iori(?) and hellknight commander classes, probably from one of the alignment templates too, similar to the celestial template I'd imagine.
As for the mount, if it is going to be a major player in combat it would almost be worth it, almost. It would unfortunately be much more effective to grant the ability to the rest of the party however. Their BAB/to hit is going to be higher as will the damage they do typically.
Using it strictly for the mount is almost a waste in terms of potential granted by the ability. Yeah it would be fun to have the mount roll some high numbers and be effective, but if you catch the whole party with the Aura, the fight is going to be that much easier, if not a complete breeze. Obviously it will be situational as well, if it is you and your mount alone against an enemy it could quite possibly be worth it.
Celestial smite evil and paladins smite evil are two different abilities that work differently but they are both named "smite evil". If they have the same name are they the same ability from the 'same' source?
Celestial smite evil and paladins smite evil are two different abilities that work differently but they are both named "smite evil". If they have the same name are they the same ability from the 'same' source?
They work the same except one references paladin level and the other references HD (because it's on a creature that doesn't have levels in a class). To me, thats still the same thing.
Celestial creatures dwell in the higher planes, but can be summoned using spells such as summon monster and planar ally. A celestial creature's CR increases by +1 only if the base creature has 5 or more HD. A celestial creature's quick and rebuild rules are the same.Rebuild Rules: Senses gains darkvision 60 ft.; Defensive Abilities gains DR and energy resistance as noted on the table; SR gains SR equal to new CR +5; Special Attacks smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests).
It works the same, and it's just called Smite Evil. To me, thats the same source.
Not quite.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
Special Attacks smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests).
Paladin's smite evil bypasses DR and gets bigger versus certain 'eviler' opponents, while celestial smite does not. Ergo: Not the same thing, even though they are named the same.
If the rule is that same named abilities don't stack then I concede the point.
@skylancer4: Aura is a 10 radius. You could easily get the whole party, and if you are on your horse, the horse gets it automatically.
@Avianfoo: I don't buy that they are different powers.
My question is, assuming they are the same, would the horse's power stack with the power he gets from his master's aura?
If they are the same ability, why don't they do the same thing?
Or to put it another way. If they are the same ability, they do not stack, so you have your answer.
@skylancer4: Aura is a 10 radius. You could easily get the whole party, and if you are on your horse, the horse gets it automatically.
@Avianfoo: I don't buy that they are different powers.
My question is, assuming they are the same, would the horse's power stack with the power he gets from his master's aura?
I agree the radius is enough to possibly get the rest of the party assuming you all move around tightly packed, my point was in regards to you using the Aura to buff your mount (as in it isn't likely to be worth doing if the mount is only one getting the buff).
Smite Evil is a source of a bonus no matter who/what is applying it, it still is an effect detailed as 'Smite Evil' and so two differing effects of the same source are on the creature.
@Avianfoo, Just because some of the numbers may be different (amount, or duration, or any of it) doesn't mean two identically named magical effects should stack. If that were the case there wouldn't have been the need to include the line 'Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.' in the magic rules.
It would have already been covered by the types of bonus rules if they intended for the same ability to stack from multiple different castings/uses and left the type of bonus unnamed. Just because one is from the celestial template and another is from the paladin class ability doesn't change that. The same source can provide differing amounts of a bonus if the mechanics allow for it, and they do in this situation. This is covered by the 'Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths' or 'Same Effect with Differing Results' rules.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
These specifically reference spells, but I can see how they could be extended to include abilities like smite evil (though by RAW they appear not to).
So which rule would the two smite evils fall under? If the first then only the biggest bonus would count and you can bypass DR from the paladin smite evil, no matter which order they are applied. If the second then only the latest smites effects occur.
These rules come from the section on Combining Magical Effects. Smite seems like a magical effects, so that seems like it fits. But the specific language references spells, which brings up the question, does this apply to other magical abilities that are not spells?
Well Smite is a Supernatural Ability according to the Paladin entry.
Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.
So, it is without question magical. Even though it isn't a spell, or spell like I feel like it still applies.
Would these rules apply for another SU ability like two channel energies at the same time?
Would these rules apply for another SU ability like two channel energies at the same time?
As far as I know you can't channel energy at the same time. Channel energy is an instaneous effect that uses a standard action if you're referring to the cleric ability. It's similar to a fireball. Sure if you can cast 2 fireballs (one guickened one regular) you do damage with them both, but they don't occur at the same time.
Smite Evil is an active on going effect that modifies your attack and damage rolls. If you have two Smites trying to modify the same thing the more powerful version of the two is in effect and the other basically does nothing unless the first runs out and its still in effect.
If you have two Smites trying to modify the same thing the more powerful version of the two is in effect and the other basically does nothing unless the first runs out and its still in effect.
I can live this this. I would think that any smite, like smite chaos, would work similarly with smite evil since they are both smites (assuming a correct target like a CE creature is the target).