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I have a Chelaxian Hungry Ghost Monk in Organized Play (Here's her profile, for what information it can impart). I'm presently waffling over her 5th-level feat - initially I chose Hamatulatsu, but to my heartbreak I discovered it's been made Society-illegal for whatever reason. So my next choice was the other interesting Chelaxian Monk feat - Belier's Bite. However, I've started looking into Style Feats, and found things like Boar, Snake, and Tiger that all sound like they might be better, perhaps even objectively so. Could I get some advice/insight/nudges toward one or another on these?
Also, the rules for bleed damage say (or at least directly imply) that bleed damage of different damage types can stack - but Belier's Bite says it doesn't stack with other abilities that cause bleed damage, but it says that in a rather vague way that doesn't sound like it out-and-out trumps standard bleed damage rules - SO, If I had Belier's Bite and Boar Style could I or couldn't I inflict 2d6+1d4 bleed damage by hitting twice with slashing damage and at least once with bludgeoning? And what's the deal with Boar Shred? If I've already dealt 2d6 slashing bleed damage with basic Boar Style, doesn't that mean the 1d6 from Boar Shred can't add anything? It also says the bleed damage persists even if I switch to a different fighting style - what the devils to they mean by that? Why would bleed damage stop just because I switch to a different Style?
Alright Ill answer your questions in reverse order, as that would make more sense...
Boar style:
1. The text referring to bleed damage persisting is either an oversight duplicating the core rules or a reaffirmation that the bleed damage is not intristic to the style so stays even if you switch. Really, it means nothing...
2. I believe that RAI was that Boar shred was supposed to do "an additional 1d6 bleed damage" but as it stands, RAW it is 2 bleed effects, one that only procs when you do the other and you can only have 1 bleed effect at a time... We rule that it stacks...
Bleeding stacking:
A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.
The quoted part is talking about different kinds of ability bleed. Hp bleed is one "type" while Str bleed is a separate "type" and con bleed is, again a separate "type"
Belier's Bite just re-states the rules, it does not change them.
If you want stacking bleeding effects, look up bleeding critical, it is the only source of stacking bleeding that I know of.
Choosing a style:
I quite like boar style, it can add quite a bit of extra damage, albit slowly. If you do decide to go with it, you would probably just want to stick with the first one unless you have a decent cha. Most likely you dont so most likely you would only want the first feat.
I woud honestly suggest looking at crane style if you plan on looking for a style to follow or possibly dragon if you are looking for more damage per strike (sadly you traded out stunning strike (:] or panther style if you want more attacks (if you have combat reflexes) can be great as a way of getting bonus attacks when you cannot full attack.
Snake style is great when it is paired up with crane style via MOMS but can turn out meh on its own. It is also fairly swift action heavy (thankfully not like kirin strike!!) and remember its a swift action to enter your style!
For some reason your character profile isn't coming up, so I will give you some generalities:
If your monk is strength-based - then Dragon Style is the way to go, dishing huge amounts of extra damage.
If your monk is rooting themselves to a spot, then Crane Style is great for defensive options.
If your monk is highly mobile, then Panther Style is great - just ruch through foes and hit them as they try and hit you.
If your monk is dexterity heavy, Crane Style is the best all-round style when you have good AC - sure, Snake Sidewind isn't great, but combine it with a feat that boosts your Sense Motive and it's awesome for giving you an AC boost, and Snake Fang becomes WAY better than Crane Riposte. Anyone who misses you, whatever you are doing, that misses an attack provokes an AoO with an unarmed strike...
A note on Bleed Damage: Most fights are over in three rounds. Occasionally there are longer ones, but given that the fight might not last long enough for the feats to do much damage, are they worth it? I look on Bleed damage as gravy, not the main meal. The bonus damage on Dragon Style, or the multiple attacks of Snake/Panther Style, they are main meal stuff.
Wow, dragon style is crazy. I had never read it in depth before. Man ...
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Thanks for everything thus far. My best guess as to why you can't see my character's profile (even though I can) is that I entered it via my "private entrance" - the one where one can edit one's own stuff. I don't know how to get to that whole thing otherwise, though.
Suffice to say, the character is a Human Hungry Ghost Qigong Monk whose best stat after Wisdom (18+2 from a headband) is her Strength (16), followed by a moderate Dexterity (14) and there after by an Intelligence of 12 (between that and her humanity, she gets enough skill points that she's capable of spending what she needs to to qualify for basic Style feats). Though I do intend to increase her Strength with items, I'm still not sure about Dragon Style.
So...it seems like Belier's bite is just about worthless compared to Boar Style. Is there ANY reason to take it, especially since I already have ranks in Intimidate, and can put in a couple more if I need to?
I am fairly sure that it is not a style feat, so it could be used in conjunction with another style. This might be good for a nonMoMS that has their heart set on bleed but can't force themselves to give up their current style. Same for MoMS at their limit of styles, I suppose.
It can also be taken at level 1...if that is your thing...I guess. Yeah, I'm grasping at this point.
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Also: Tiger Style says if it deals bleed damage, it's "at the start of his next two turns" - normal bleed damage rules contradict this limit. What's the story?
Belier's bite and boar works like this. First hit 1d4, if you land two hits it's no D4, just two d6.
You basically can't stack bleed, just take the best. Tiger is on slashing crits only, and lasts a few rounds... however it's a 20 to crit unarmed. If you had BB, BS, and TS, your attacks always do a d4 bleed, 2 rounds of d4 bleed if they crit, and if you hit the same person twice, 2d6 bleed (a rend really).
I wonder if doing the tiger strike or janni rush (where you roll unarmed damage twice, some sort of double palm blast) would count towards two unarmed strikes in a round for bleed haha.
Snake style is quite lovely, if only for the image of stabbing people. With your hand. The sense motive as AC has already been mentioned, but still, it must be great against touch attack. I'd highly advise you go with boar style though. By the second feat (which is around level 6), you can choose to do any of the three types using only a free action. Combined with the bleed damage and your intimidation, you can be a beast.
At around level 10, you could always get hamatula strike (bab 8+ prereq). It is not tied directly to hamatulatsu, but rather any piercing weapon. It basically lets you IMPALE people, which works out mechanically as a free grapple on a successful hit. The rest of the feat is just a bit about attacking with larger weapons while they are in someone's gut. I only bring this feat up because.....do I really need to explain? Its awesome. Especially if you are using you unarmed strikes. Not for those who want to become a Champion of Iori though.
Ah, I missed that since Dabbler said the profile wasn't loading. Its just the standard answer I give in this situation, since some of those "sensitive" types and their "respect for the dignity of human life." Anyway, all the better then. By the time you get high enough level to take such a feat, you could have plenty of options for turning your unarmed strikes into piercing weapons. Because we can all agree nailing people to walls barehanded is one of the best feelings.
Still, boar style looks like the best bet for all the categories you were looking for and more within a single style: bleed, all of the different damage types, and taking advantage of your sweet skill ranks.
Hmmm...depends on whether you value mobility or full attacks. Dragon style is nice fro charges, since it allows you to do extra damage and charge in more situations. In a full attack however, you are probably going to get more from the bleed damage/rend thing more, since it averages out to 7 points of damage per round. Unfortunately, since this is PFS, you are not likely to reach a level where you strength would get the better of that. There are some stunning fist, elemental fist, and status condition stuff on the later feats for dragon style, but i am a bit wary of it.
Snake style is more defensive overall. I still tend to prefer it on a MoMS with crane though.
Suffice to say, the character is a Human Hungry Ghost Qigong Monk whose best stat after Wisdom (18+2 from a headband) is her Strength (16), followed by a moderate Dexterity (14) and there after by an Intelligence of 12 (between that and her humanity, she gets enough skill points that she's capable of spending what she needs to to qualify for basic Style feats). Though I do intend to increase her Strength with items, I'm still not sure about Dragon Style.
OK, you have a problem.
Your main stat is Wisdom, which would usually imply a dip of Cleric to get Channel Smite followed by Guided Attack, which would allow wisdom bonus to hit with your deity's favoured weapon, which would be great if your deity was Irori and it could be unarmed strike...but it isn't.
Otherwise, your chances to hit are going to lag WELL behind other combat classes. Your next best bet is focus on strength, and that makes Dragon Style a great choice. Boar Style is OK for you, but Snake Style is s till a good option - all those attacks from Snake Fang are too good to miss.
But are you taking snake style simply to do piercing damage? Again, the second feat in the boar style feat chain, Boar ferocity, would do that and allow you to do a free intimidation check when you use flurry of blows. This would help consolidate everything into a single style and not have to deal with that swift action to switch business.
If you want snake style for its defensive properties, then that is a perfectly fine plan.
And Dabbler, why is 16 such a terrible score his to hit stat? Monks are about the same as a ranger using TWF when doing flurry, so it is not that much of a problem. I guess dragon style might make a decent additional style for when your have to move, but I do not necessarily see the scores as bad at all. Really, can't someone have a well rounded character rather than a hyper optimized idiot with biceps the size of their head that can't tie their boots or ask a simple question?
As it stands, I'm thinking I'll take basic Boar Style at 5th level, basic Snake Style at 7th, and *perhaps* basic Dragon Style at 9th, without delving further into the chains. As for my Monk bonus feats, I have previous plans for them.
Anything outrageously wrong with this plan?
The same thing that's wrong with a cleric 3/fighter 3/wizard 3 9th level character, really: the spread is nice, but the game rewards specialisation and being a little bit good at three things isn't half so good as being great at one thing.
You lose out on the best features of each style if you only take the first feat, no two ways about it. Bear Style is OK to dip the first feat, but add the second and third and it's VERY powerful. Snake Style, well the Sense Motive to avoid one attack is OK, but what really rocks is Snake Fang and one attack of opportunity on anyone attacking you and missing. Dragon Style is OK, but it's Dragon Ferocity and Dragon Roar that dish the hurt on your foes.
Pick one style and get good at it before you pick a second style is my advice.
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@Dabbler: Such a critique strikes me as (ironically) too generalized - bear in mind what my character can and cannot do. As a Hungry Ghost Monk, I don't do Stunning Fist, so I can't pursue advanced Dragon Style. Also, I'm not defining my character by her Style Feats alone - I'm building an antihero here, not some factory. I doubt she'd call her Boar Style "Boar Style" per se, and I'm actually starting to think I've been led astray by my original interest in bleed damage by a character-appropriate feat that's evidently inferior to an character-inappropriate feat. I hate how central concept is referred to as "fluff" and how concept-driven characters are viewed as less effective than bean-counter types. Making a cool character shouldn't come at the cost of effectiveness, and vice versa. People need to remember that it's the work of art that's at the center of the whole game; the mechanics are just there as a UI.
So I'm kind of back at square one: What, exactly, should my 5th-level feat be now that I've been denied Hamatulatsu, the otherwise ideal Chelaxian sadomasochist Monk feat?
I would say Boar Style or Tiger Style would work well for you.
Building a 'factory' is different from building a character who is effective at something. As your character is part of a game, there are mechanics that are involved and poor choices aren't something that organized play is forgiving towards. They have strict rebuild rules and some choices are mechanically superior to others. Also mid levels is where classes (and consequently choices made during the leveling of those classes) start to separate and possibly shine. If you're going to call the mechanics the 'UI' (which I don't agree with but we can roll with it) a crappy UI means you cannot function as efficiently as you could with a good UI. Having the correct tools, access to them, in the correct place is important for you to function well. A crappy UI can function of course, but a good UI is still better.
For me having a 'cool' character is having a character who can actually perform the way I envision them. If I'm playing an archer I want them to be good at it, not a character who runs around with a bow and is unable to hit the broad side of the barn. If I'm playing a skill monkey bard who is supposed to know all about creatures we'd run into, I'm not going to max out a handful of skills, I'm going to max out one or two that are really important and then dabble in all the others. Meshing concept and mechanics is sometimes tricky but expecting mechanics to take a back seat to concept is going to lead to disappointment. Mechanics play more a role than you seem to be giving them credit for. The advice forum regularly has posts about 'help me' or 'how to improve' the characters people are playing, often when they are let down by what they've chosen in pursuit of their 'concept.'
I would second Boar Style as it doesn't rely on a critical hit and you still have access to Flurry, so hopefully the full BAB during FoB will allow you to get off the bleed damage.
Question: in what book can I find this Hamatulatsu and hamatula? Just not familiar with them and would like to take a look.
@Hiding in Your Closet: Kudos for thinking of flavor over optimization.
The copyright notice on the d20pfsrd said the Inner Sea World Guide for Hamatulatsu and Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils for hamatula strike.
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Question: in what book can I find this Hamatulatsu and hamatula? Just not familiar with them and would like to take a look.
@Hiding in Your Closet: Kudos for thinking of flavor over optimization.
Thank you. I just want something that works well and can compete with Hamatulatsu and Boar Style, since one's illegal and the other, while it works, remains somehow unsatisfactory. I'm not asking for something that does the same thing, necessarily, just something that can compete and is in a similar spirit (i.e. preferably something offensive).
If, as I have often feared, mechanics have indeed wrested the driver's seat of the game away from concept, world, and sheer imagination in general, then something is wrong (something much bigger than this thread). As for the idea of objective superiority or failure to put mechanics first inevitably resulting in "disappointment", I've ultimately seen too much evidence against it to agree. I've seen what mechanical cheese can accomplish (an example that sticks out in my mind is that of a Strength-based dual-wielding Ninja who, at level 1, one-shotted the boss), but in a well-designed game, such characters inevitably get their just desserts when some bizarre anomaly of DM/adventure architect innovation flies out of left field and hits them square in the back of the neck.
I dont know why hamatulatsu was banned, but I believed it had to do with the flavour of the feat. Something about the cult it belongs to not fitting with golrdon lore (I think I spelled that wrong).
I always build for flavour :) I make them effective, but it always takes a back seat to flavour. Sadly sometimes you just cant make the concept/idea work with the rules, or you can make it work mechanically but it under preforms spectacularly. My builds always start with What do I want to make? 2 weapon fighter wielding dual glaives with 4 arms? Done. My builds usually end with How effective is this going to be? Did my original idea stick or did it evolve?
Anyways.
Another thing, did you know about the combat style master feat? it lets you start in a style at the start of the battle and lets you switch as a free. Choose dragon and boar for instance. Start in dragon for charging and the first attack, free switch to boar for the second attack for the bleed effect, switch to snake at the end in case the opponent misses you on his turn.
As for what feat you should go? I say go boar style and stick with it. Pick up dragon style when you can and style master after that. You should be able to do alright :)
Just remembered, one of the things people dont like about the monk is his to hit modifiers. 3/4 BAB and 16 str is quite a bit smaller than full BAB and 20 str. 4 points less or 20% worse. Its not as bad when you flurry tho. The other thing is trying to enhance your attacks. People like their +1-5 enhancement bonuses and the monk has a harder time getting them, monk also cant get a masterwork fist for the earlier +1. Couple that with the monks lower BAB meaning he gets some feats later and the whole "monk wants to run but has to stand still to flurry" thing and thats why they generally say its an underpowered class.
I still like the monk class quite a bit and still build things off of it quite often :)
I had this one that was MMOS with panther/snake styles and a large wis stat. massive amounts of AOOs on that one ;)