I know a fighter character who took 1 rank of Use Magic Device. He claims that now he can use his wand of cure light wounds whenever he wants. In the rules for UMD, it says a player can't take a 10 or a 20 with UMD, but when the character fails, the wand charge is not used up. It also says that if the character rolls a natural 1, he can't use the wand for 24 hrs. I was wondering how groups handled such a situation?
Let's assume the character has Cha mod of -1. This puts his UMD at a 0. So he has a 50/50 chance of rolling a 1 and a 20. Would this just be a flip of a coin? Or should we just give the player his use of his wand?
You perform it as written. Why would you do it any other way. A 0 UMD would have him trying for quite a while before it works and he is just as likely to lose access to it for 24 hrs.
Make sure if he tries to use scrolls that he has the required ability score. (For example wis 11 required for a scroll of cure light wounds unless he rolls a 26 UMD check).
how you figure 50/50? is only a 5% chance for a nat 1. He also only has a 5% chance of successfully activating the wand. Assuming he does not have a caster level, and CLW on his spell list.
Well, rolling til he gets a 1 or a 20 seems to slow down the game. The coin toss was a suggestion to speed up healing after a battle? I guess the whole 1 point in UMD just to do something seems like a lame meta-gaming thing to do.
Right, but if he's out of combat, he's just going to keep re-rolling until he gets one or the other. So it becomes 50/50. It's only in combat that the wasted actions are relevant.
Personally I'd have him flip a coin instead of wasting my time rolling over and over. If he insisted on rolling a d20, I'd make him count the number of times he rolled, and rule that he was just standing there shaking his wand for that period of time.
But I'm sure others will disagree.
If we are talking about out of combat sure i could agree with flipping a coin. Heads = wand works, Tails = wand doesnt work for 24 hrs. As long as you arent pressed for time and you rule that each flip is 1-5 minutes.
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Well, rolling til he gets a 1 or a 20 seems to slow down the game. The coin toss was a suggestion to speed up healing after a battle? I guess the whole 1 point in UMD just to do something seems like a lame meta-gaming thing to do.
I think it's kind of funny. "I dunno, man, I shake it long enough and sometimes healing comes out. Of course, sometimes it just fizzles and there's this little puff of smoke, but I'm sure it's nothing."
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Quick Sidenote for when you start getting high UMD skill characters:
...if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours.
If you roll a 1 and your UMD skill is insufficient to hit DC 20 only then is your access borked for 24 hours. If you have +19 in UMD, you can still roll 1 and activate the device with no issues as your skill check total is 20.
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Many players in my area put ranks into Use Magic Device despite it not being a class skill. I'm of the camp that believes it's the bonus that matters, not just having the ability to use the skill. Hopefully your fighter is in a party with at least one person that can use his wand for him.
+10? That's a 50/50 shot of getting it to work.
+5? That's still 1 out of 4. Not really reliable for combat, but tolerable.
+0? Not worth it.
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I know a fighter character who took 1 rank of Use Magic Device. He claims that now he can use his wand of cure light wounds whenever he wants.
"You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand."
"Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours."
It sounds like the player is misinformed or misunderstands. He can attempt to use it whenever he wants. It doesn't mean he succeeds. If has to make the skill check each time he attempts it. If he fails, he's done for 24 hours.
Outside of combat, and if the time frame in game doesn't matter due to running buffs or the like, then going to a summarized percentage roll is a reasonable way to handle it. If time matters, the clicking of the clock dictates making the repeated tries. Be aware, though, that not everyone understands how probability works; the player may not and/or the player may miscommunicate what he's attempting to another GM.
As a game technique thing, it's not a horrid idea for a character who rolls a one on a wand to trade wands with someone else. Typically there are enough wands at a table to pass 'em around to avoid a character who might be able to use one from not having one to try at all. And sometimes, even an unlikely character may be the only one available at a critical moment to try to save a life.
As an aside, no one willing to invest a rank in UMD should have a +0 bonus. A masterwork UMD tool is only 50 gp and adds +2, so even a Cha 7 character should have +1 (1 rank, -2 Cha, +2 tool).
I believe that due to the new rules from UE for masterwork tools, there is no legal masterwork UMD tool. (I guess you can get the 200gp cracked ioun stone for +1)
wait... a masterwork tool for UMD?!?!
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As an aside, no one willing to invest a rank in UMD should have a +0 bonus. A masterwork UMD tool is only 50 gp and adds +2, so even a Cha 7 character should have +1 (1 rank, -2 Cha, +2 tool).I believe that due to the new rules from UE for masterwork tools, there is no legal masterwork UMD tool.
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There is no UNIVERSAL UMD tool, but if a PC uses UMD primarily for wands, he could simply purchase "Lundeen's Manual of Magic Wands" for a +2 on UMD checks for wands.
Some skills have no appropriate tool or masterwork tool—no nonmagical item exists that grants a bonus for all uses of that skill. For example, just because a certain perfume is favored by local nobles (granting a +2 circumstance bonus on Diplomacy checks to influence them) doesn't mean that perfume has the same effect on a member of the thieves' guild, a foreign berserker, or a medusa. Likewise, just because a fake beard woven by dwarves out of the beards of famous dwarves may grant a +2 circumstance bonus on Use Magic Device checks to emulate the dwarven race doesn't mean the beard has any effect on using that skill to activate elven items or paladin items, or to decipher a written spell.
There is no UNIVERSAL UMD tool, but if a PC uses UMD primarily for wands, he could simply purchase "Lundeen's Manual of Magic Wands" for a +2 on UMD checks for wands.
Ok, so what is from stopping me from making "Lundeen's Manual of Magic Wands, Staves, activating blindly, and reading scrolls"?
Who decides what is too specific or too general? Can a GM say "Lundeen's Manual of Magic Wands" is too powerful, I gotta make it a "Lundeen's Manual of magic missile Wands"?
Usually when there is a "create your own" type of scenario, it's not allowed in PFS.
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As an aside, no one willing to invest a rank in UMD should have a +0 bonus. A masterwork UMD tool is only 50 gp and adds +2, so even a Cha 7 character should have +1 (1 rank, -2 Cha, +2 tool).
Except in Ultimate Equipment, look at the new rules for masterwork tool. I don't think you can just buy a generic +2 for UMD anymore.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Andrew, that's problematic.
The PRD is part of the core assumption for GMs, so we can look rules up during our prep time. We're expected to have internet access at some point or another.
But a rule like this isn't something that comes up during prep time. One player pulls out his masterwork UMD "Command Words of Qadira" chapbook. Another player cites the rule you're asserting.
So I'm asking you, GM to Venture Officer: what is the campaign's expectation? That I have access to the entire PRD at the table?
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That is a very good question Chris.
All I can say is, that you spend quite a bit of time on the message boards, and are more aware of these types of things than many other people.
Now that you are aware, I'd imagine you will at least read through the PRD version of Ultimate Equipment and have a rudimentary memory/understanding of the rule.
But in a situation as you discuss: A GM without PRD access at the table, I'd leave it to the player to have the requisite information for their character. That's what they are supposed to have.
For cases like this, where there are two different rules and the Player's Core Assumption says one thing, and the GM's Core Assumption says another, then you go with your common sense in the situation.
If you, as a GM, don't have access, and don't know, then you have to go with the rule you can look up (unless a player has a copy of it to show you.)
If a player only has the Core Rule Book, then it is likely they have no idea that this other rule exists.
Unless it is completely breaking the game, or makes no sense whatsoever (someone carrying a tool box of 50 different tools), then personally I would be lenient.
The precedent has always been when a new source updates a rule from an old source, the new source overrides the old source.
In this case, it just gets wonky in that the old source is Core Assumption and the new source is not core assumption for players.
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As an aside, no one willing to invest a rank in UMD should have a +0 bonus. A masterwork UMD tool is only 50 gp and adds +2, so even a Cha 7 character should have +1 (1 rank, -2 Cha, +2 tool).Except in Ultimate Equipment, look at the new rules for masterwork tool. I don't think you can just buy a generic +2 for UMD anymore.
I don't agree with you. All the UE version of masterwork tools states is that some masterwork tools do not apply to all types of skill checks based on the skill they are for. (2nd paragraph)
Some masterwork tools apply to anything you do with that skill. These tools have a limited use quantity (healers kit, disguise kit, etc). Other masterwork tools require that they be more specific. I.e. I have a fake dwarven beard that helps me channel my inner dwarf when attempting to UMD activate a magic item which requires me to be dwarven. A player can still have a masterwork tool for UMD, it just has to be restricted in what types of UMD checks it can help with. (3rd paragraph)
I do not see anything that bans masterwork tools for the UMD skill.
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As an aside, no one willing to invest a rank in UMD should have a +0 bonus. A masterwork UMD tool is only 50 gp and adds +2, so even a Cha 7 character should have +1 (1 rank, -2 Cha, +2 tool).Except in Ultimate Equipment, look at the new rules for masterwork tool. I don't think you can just buy a generic +2 for UMD anymore.I don't agree with you. All the UE version of masterwork tools states is that some masterwork tools do not apply to all types of skill checks based on the skill they are for. (2nd paragraph)
Some masterwork tools apply to anything you do with that skill. These tools have a limited use quantity (healers kit, disguise kit, etc). Other masterwork tools require that they be more specific. I.e. I have a fake dwarven beard that helps me channel my inner dwarf when attempting to UMD activate a magic item which requires me to be dwarven. A player can still have a masterwork tool for UMD, it just has to be restricted in what types of UMD checks it can help with. (3rd paragraph)
I do not see anything that bans masterwork tools for the UMD skill.
I don't see how what I said conflicts with what you said. I bolded the word in my quote you may have missed.
Sorry if I am confused, but in LG you couldnt buy 'Sczro's Guide to swinging a wand' around at any convenience store. Can you in PFS?
Sorry if I am confused, but in LG you couldnt buy 'Sczro's Guide to swinging a wand' around at any convenience store. Can you in PFS?
As an item that costs 50 gp you can buy it any time 5 or more freestanding pig farmer hovels lean up against each other.
(You only need a thorp for magic items costing 50gp or less, thats 20 people. So even if you apply the magical item restrictions to mundane items its pretty much under everyone's pillows. )
I don't see how what I said conflicts with what you said. I bolded the word in my quote you may have missed.
My bad. I had a different definition of "generic" when I responded.
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Personally, I think any generic "masterwork tool" should be banned from PFS play just to avoid these debates. There are plenty of items in the books that you can buy that give bonuses to specific skills. Use those. If there isn't one for the skill you want, ask nicely on the Paizo forums, and maybe they'll throw one in a new book for you.
In the case of UMD, my sorcerer has a Circlet of Persuasion. Unfortunately, I got it one adventure too late. We once had a PC death in a game because I rolled a 4 on UMD to use a cure wand, when I needed at least a 6 on the die. I'm now up to +18 with that PC - one more level to use the happy stick without rolling!
There is a MW tool for all skills, as per the CRB. UE did not clarify any specific skill which could not have a MW tool for all uses, therefore Mike Brock would have to come up with a list. He has said previously in this thread that you can have a MW tool for any skill, but only used actively, not passively (ie you need to get the tool out of your backpack and use it to get a +2, you can't get the bonus when you suddenly fall down a cliff or when someone is sneaking up on you)
Therefore, until a specific list of MW tools for each skill gets printed, there exists a MW tool for every skill, including UMD.
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This thread has spawned another on how new rules resources and mechanics interact with the core assumption. The thread is here
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Don't you need to define what a tool is? How can you use a tool that's not fit for the task?
"What tool did you buy?"
"A hammer.
"Okay you can use it whenever a hammer would actually help you, so you can't use it to help you sing."
What tool is there for UMD? Not a book, a book isn't a tool, it's a reference, basically it gives knowledge which would apply to knowledge checks, not swing wands checks.
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Personally i would consider leniency when picking up existing characters and games but when running my own i would inform them of how i felt about their purchase and allow them to unpurchase it before the game ever started. That said, i am willing to consider almost anything if you can give me a good story and reasoning on how it helps but it has to be good.
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Don't you need to define what a tool is? How can you use a tool that's not fit for the task?
"What tool did you buy?"
"A hammer.
"Okay you can use it whenever a hammer would actually help you, so you can't use it to help you sing."What tool is there for UMD? Not a book, a book isn't a tool, it's a reference, basically it gives knowledge which would apply to knowledge checks, not swing wands checks.
GM: How does a book help you use a wand?
Player: Inside is listed most common command words, and a guide to recognize the runes on it to give other hints as to how to activate teh wands function. Obviously, it won't work in combat.
A couple of weeks ago I learned the +2 for previously activating a wand only counts for THIS session. Of course the +2 is under 'activate blindly' & not 'use a wand,' so it never occurred to me that it would apply, but since it does I'm a little surprised it does not carry over.
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Ahhhh, but knowing the command word doesn't help, you have to emulate being the right kind of spellcaster.and how do you do that?
Plainly the book tells you how to do it correctly.
Advice doesn't help with something you already know. You have to roll each time, the first time the advice might help to figure out what to do, but after that it's useless because you already know how to do it.
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A couple of weeks ago I learned the +2 for previously activating a wand only counts for THIS session. Of course the +2 is under 'activate blindly' & not 'use a wand,' so it never occurred to me that it would apply, but since it does I'm a little surprised it does not carry over.
What is the logic for using the +2 under activate blindly for wands as well? Do those who argue it also use the mishap for failure for wands?
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Why does a mw tool have to be A tool? Most of them are kits with a variety of items. Thieves tools are lockpicks and other stuff, a mw blacksmiths kit is a variety of hammers and tongs etc.
A codebook of common phrases: Activate blindly
The complete idiots guide to common magical phrases: Decipher a written spell
Hooked on phonics: Arcane version: Use a scroll (ackLU verAhhhta nIKto)
Chalk for the tip: Use a wand
A series of inspirational short stories to get you in the right mindset: Sir Galahad for Paladins: Emulate a class feature
personal power magnets Emulate an abilitty score:
ear of elf beard of dwarf: Emulate a race 25
A short series of mantras to get you in the mindset. "I will eat my vegetables" for lawful good "I will eat this kitten" for CE.: Emulate an alignment