So, I've had this idea to make a thrown dagger based character for a while and I've wanted to add special stuff to the daggers while attacking (be it channeled energy into the strike, sneak attacks, spells through the daggers, etc).
That being said, I stumbled on some interesting ways to increase number of attacks without actually running into lesser BAB bonuses. So far the list of ways is as follows:
Ninja/Monk: Spend 1 point of ki for extra attack
Ninja Trick Flurry of Stars (not daggers): Add two attacks to full attack at -2 to each
Two Weapon Fighting: -2 to make extra attack with melee weapons (does not exclude thrown)
Rapid Shot: Make and extra ranged attack at -2 (stacks with TWF)
Haste/Speed: +1 attack at full BAB
Using the above, you could make 4-5 attaacks in a round all at a -4 to hit before your BAB gives bonus attacks. pretty good, but not really optimal either. Going against touch AC would be best here but I don't know of a way to make thrown weapons against touch.
Now, in order to make this character work I was thinking Ninja 5/Fighter (Two Weapon Warrior) 15, thus giving you both the Ki pool for adding attacks, Ki Charge and if you can Deadly Range then get the benefits of removing TWF penalties from Fighter levels as well as bonuses to full attacks with more than one weapon. This is just a very basic and straightforward way of doing it. This is leaving out something like Knife Master which gets d8's for sneak attacks, which would also work for this (unfortunately I can't do Ninja 2/Rogue 1).
Do you guys have any recommendations for more interesting throwing dagger/finesse characters?
No, I was just listing all the avanues of increased attacks without hitting extra attacks from BAB, so Flurry of Stars fit that. The only reason Ninja made sense, to me, was because it adds 3d6 sneak attack (and since they are denied dex, you probably are negating your -4 from TWF/Rapid Shot) on top of giving you the ability to spend a ki point for another attack. That means 4 attacks at level 3 (if you use tricks for feats).
If you threw in FoS with Shuriken you could possibly get 6 attacks, but they'd all be at -6 (if I'm reading it correctly).
But Knife Master would also be a good way to supplement the low number of damage dice by making it 3d8 rather than 3d6 (but you lose the 5th attack from blowing Ki).
Unfortunately a throwing build will fall apart once magic weapons come into the picture...
Yes, the biggest issue. The best option is Daggers or Starknives w/ returning on them (since I think as long as they aren't ammunition they aren't destroyed on impact).
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What about Ranger?
The Abundant Ammunition spell is a Ranger spell.
Basically, have a special material Shuriken of each material, then cast Abundant Ammunition on the one you need.
Crusader Cleric of Yaezhing dip works too.
Cleric option opens up Guided Hand, which allows you to use wisdom for attack rolls.
That could free up some feats, not mention favored enemy bonuses and still allowing for some stealthiness.
And can you link me to the Cleric thing?
I also find that, when it comes to adding spells to weaponry, the Myrmidarch Magus archetype might be a cool way to go as well. Scorching Ray and throw 4 daggers, or shocking grasp at 20ft + 3 more daggers would be a neat way to play a magus although he'd have to have a backup weapon.
Starknives might also be a cool way to go with it.
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the only way i have been able to make a thrower build work is to splash in 2 levels of oracle.
with oracle you can take the water vision revelation and sit in a obscuring mist spell while dishing out a full attack. with sneak attack damage it gets pretty nasty fast. honestly it work much better with a long bow, but ninja stars are cool also.
so it would be waves oracle with ninja, not rogue, and all of the above feats you had listed. point blank, precise, rapid shot, TWF, ITWF, rapid throw, and the ki pool attack. you hit flat footed ac so the -6 to attack isnt as bad as it looks, AND you can still tear people up with melee while in the mist, just make sure you use a reach weapon.
Wow, that belt almost single-handedly makes throwing viable.
I would not do daggers. Get the belt, grab Two-Handed Thrower feat, and 2H a one-handed weapon with your throws for good damage per hit.
You hurl weapons with both hands and with great force, sometimes using a whirling technique to send your weapon flying through the air at tremendous speeds.
Prerequisite: Str 15.
Benefit: Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. Using two hands to throw any weapon requires only a standard action for you. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus on thrown weapon damage, regardless of available hands. Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.
Now if only there was a feat to use str for thrown attack rolls like 3E's Brutal Throw...
Ninja does seem like the best choice, but three throwing daggers + knife master rogue is really appealing. I'll have to look up that belt as well.
I have an inquisitor friend that throws his basterd sword with true strike.
The belt is nice (though it eliminates the physical stat belts, unless you can combine the two. Belt of Mighty Hurling is also, well, a pretty good belt for a thrower).
But at the end of the day, what are you doing better than an archer? I can't spot anything, except maybe with this feat:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sliding-axe-throw-combat
The belt is nice (though it eliminates the physical stat belts, unless you can combine the two. Belt of Mighty Hurling is also, well, a pretty good belt for a thrower).
But at the end of the day, what are you doing better than an archer? I can't spot anything, except maybe with this feat:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sliding-axe-throw-combat
Flavor, tbh. Throwing daggers are, imo, a great concept. While it is unfortunate that the game doesn't really make it easy to do the point here isn't to really be optimized numbers wise but within this particular concept.
I have continuously been assured by paizo fans when I state "PF uber nerfed martials by putting all physical stats into a single body slot, grossly ramping up their costs" that the belt and headband are only "suggestions" and you can still use the 3E body slots to split up the str/dex/con enhancements.
I'd really, REALLY like clarification on if that is true or not.
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Blink back belt
Belt of might hurling
Dagger of doubling
Ricochet hammer
Dwarven thrower
Dwarfbond hammer
bounding hammer
Charging hurler
Close quarters thrower
Distance thrower
Sliding axe throw
Two handed thrower
Arcane strike
Barbarian hurler class
Hurling charge rage power
Spear throwing build thread
Another throwing build thread
Different idea for a hurling build
Gloves of shaping
3.5 prestige class
Funny read
Enjoy!
So there are a few ways to do it that I can think of from what we have:
- Human
- Quick Draw
- Rapid Shot
- Weapon Finesse
- Two Weapon Fighting
- Point Blank Shot
- Deadly Aim/Power Attack
- Weapon Focus
- Dodge
- Close Quarters Thrower
- Two Handed Thrower
- Hammer the Gap
- Blinkback Belt
- Belt of Mighty Hurling (not sure what weapons to use with this, and it probably wouldn't work with the Knife Master)
- Throwing Daggers
- Some one handed throwable weapon (Read Below)
- Charkrams
- Flying Talons
- Large Starknives
- Large Throwing Daggers (one handed, qualifies for Two Handed Thrower).
Knife Master Archetype (d8's for sneak attack, but kills switch hitting a bit with anything but daggers)
Talents
- Ki Pool (for extra attack)
Ki Powers
- Vanishing Trick
- Ki Charge
- Flurry of Stars
Myrmidarch Archetype
Arcana
- Arcane Accuracy (INT to attack roll)
- Prescient Attack (deny Dex bonus)
- Hasted Assault
I can't really think of anything else for the build. The real question is, should I really wait until I can afford a Belt of Mighty Hurling? I can easily go melee early on but the amount of gold necessary for that item isn't available until level 6. That's 6 levels of not being the character I want :\. If I go rogue/ninja I shouldn't have to worry about strength due to Sneak Attack, but at the same time it will be difficult to get them surprised or flanked consistently enough for a full round to really deal its sneak damage effectively.
Hm... if you guys were to make a character that throws DAGGERS/KNIVES (not shuriken, although I'm open to throwing one handed weapons that aren't axes) how would you lay out the character?
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I'm making a character like this myself. If using daggers the River Rat trait is a must. They say a trait is roughly equal to half a feat...
River Rat gives +1 to DMG w/daggers. This effectively half Weapon Specialization, but it is also equal to raising your STR by two points (for a thrower, who uses DEX to hit anyway).
It also applies to off-hand attacks, which means its better than Double Slice for a character who isn't focused on STR.
Personally I'm leaning towards Knife Master Rogue, but haven't ruled out the Ranger Class. So far I know I want;
Trait: River Rat
Feats;
-Weapon Finesse
-TWF
-weapon focus dagger
-point blank shot
-QuickDraw
Didn't know about that trait. That should really help out in the early levels.
Alright, so I've looked through this again and I think 5 levels Kensai Magus + 15 levels in Rogue would make a good blade thrower with some contingencies for CQC.
Kensai Magus 5:
- 2nd level spells (for some good battlefield control and minor buffs)
- Canny Defense (max +5 to AC when wearing light/no armor)
- Weapon Focus for free
- Spell Combat for CQC (if necessary)
- Perfect Strike (spend 1 point to maximize damage or two points to increase critical multiplier)
- Bonus Feat
- Magus Arcana Accurate Strike (INT to attack for round after spending point)
Knife Master Rogue 15:
- d8's for daggers
- +1/2 level to slight of hand to conceal daggers
- Blade Sense (+1 to AC/3 levels against dagger attacks)
- All other rogue goodness.
Traits:
- River Rat
- Magical Knack
Stats (20pt buy):
- STR 12
- DEX 17
- CON 12
- INT 15
- WIS 10
- CHA 7
This leaves me at 8d8 sneak attack, +5 to AC while holding daggers, +7 vs daggers to AC, ability to maximize damage and increase critical damage, INT to hit, etc with the option to drop one more level in Magus for Denying dex to AC for free sneak attacks (but lose a d8 to sneak attack... not that bad).