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I know this is a touchy subject for some (try to be respectful you post please). I wanted to see what all the fuss was about and made a chart comparing the two. Most of them aren't actually that far off; others have a bit of a difference. (And for those wondering, PM is short for piecemeal.)
Alchemist
Kit: 40g; 24 lb.
PM: 41g, 8s, 1c; 82 lb.
Barbarian
Kit: 9g; 26 lb.
PM: 8g, 9s, 1c; 29 lb.
Bard
Kit: 41g; 33-1/2 lb.
PM: 41g, 8s, 1c; 36-1/2 lb.
Cavalier
Kit: 23g; 112 lb.
PM: 25g, 9s, 6c; 126 lb.
Cleric
Kit: 16g; 32 lb.
PM: 16g, 8s, 1c; 46 lb.
Druid
Kit: 14g; 44 lb.
PM: 14g, 3s, 6c; 83 lb.
Fighter
Kit: 9g; 29 lb.
PM: 9g, 7s, 1c; 42 lb.
Gunslinger
Kit: 26g; 31 lb.
PM: 27g, 7s; 44-1/2 lb.
Inquisitor
Kit: 30g; 34 lb.
PM: 31g, 8s, 1c; 48 lb.
Magus
Kit: 22g; 31 lb.
PM: 22g, 8s, 1c; 45 lb.
Monk
Kit: 8g; 22 lb.
PM: 8g, 1s, 1c; 35 lb.
Oracle
Kit: 9g; 29 lb.
PM: 9g, 7s, 1c; 42 lb.
Paladin
Kit: 11g; 30 lb.
PM: 11g, 7s, 1c; 43 lb.
Ranger
Kit: 9g; 28 lb.
PM: 9g, 7s, 1c; 42 lb.
Rogue
Kit: 50g; 37 lb.
PM: 52g, 8s, 1c; 54-1/2 lb.
Sorcerer
Kit: 8g; 19 lb.
PM: 7g, 7s, 1c; 32 lb.
Summoner
Kit: 8g; 19 lb.
PM: 7g, 7s, 1c; 32 lb.
Witch
Kit: 21g; 21 lb.
PM: 22g, 1c; 35 lb.
Wizard
Kit: 21g; 21 lb.
PM: 21g, 8s, 1c; 35 lb.
As you can see, the Alchemist and the Druid have the biggest discrepancies in weight (58 lb and 39 lb more if you get the stuff piecemeal respectively).
Another oddity is that the Barbarian's Kit is the only kit where you lose money by taking the kit over buying the stuff piecemeal (9c more expensive). Not really enough to count for anything, but it's still odd.
The only other odd thing that I found while making this chart is that the Gunslinger's Kit is the only one that doesn't come with soap. This doesn't really make any sense. Is there a reason for that?
If I got any of the numbers wrong, please let me know.
Yeah, they are all sorts of screwy.
At least one game developer claimed that the changes were deliberate, that the costs and weight differences were discounts for buying the items together, and form efficient packaging.
If that were true though, you'd think there would be more rhyme or reason to how they went about doing it.
I love the kits but I usually ignore the kit weight and go with the PM weight. I didn't realize some of the price differences.
The real problem comes when you either lose a piece such as rope or rations or replace an item like a mwk backpack vs the standard. How do you adjust the weight?
Its weird that when you lose and item, the weight goes up instead of down.
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Dammit. I could understand the price difference, simply because of the economy of buying in bulk in real life, but the WEIGHT DIFFERENCE?!
Okay, this ticks me off.
What ticks me off more is that all of these kits assume your PC doesn't have darkvision. That means a lot of bought candles, lamps, etc that YOU don't need. I can understand being able to start a fire, even having some oil to help it along even if you have darkvision, but there's no need to carry light sources if you can already see in the bloody dark!
I do like the racial trail rations though. However, I would have given any PC who tries to live off trail rations for a long time roll increasing Will saves when they have the option to eat real food. I myself have survived on trail rations before, and it sucks rocks.
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Why? I've lived off of MRE "trail rations" for an extended time as well, (and still do) and they are not bad at all. I actually kind of miss them sometimes.
As for the Kits, I personally don't care for them. The reduced cost and weight isn't enough of a bargain for me when they include too much I don't want and lack a few things I do. I have a list of my basic (always buy) equipement on a sheet inside my book I go off of. It would be very cool however if they would have done a generic Adventurer's Kit more along the lines of the basics that everyone buys, but at the same time, I doubt that most poeople would agree on "what everyone buys".
:)
*Backpack (2, 2 lbs) <Masterwork Backpack ASAP (50, 4lbs)>
*Bedroll (1SP, 5 lbs)
*Belt Pouch x2 (2, 1 lbs)
Chalk x10 (1SP)
Earplugs (3CP)
*Flint & Steel (1)
Grappling Hook and 50ft Silk Rope (11, 9 lbs) <combined>
Ink (8)
Ink Pen (1SP)
Journal (10, 1 lbs)
Steel Mirror (10)
Sack x2 (2SP, 1 lbs)
Scroll Case (2, 1 lbs)
Soap x2 (2CP, 1 lbs)
Waterproof Bag x2 (1, 1 lbs)
*Waterskin (1, 4 lbs)
*Wetstone (2CP, 1 lbs)
Total Cost: 48GP, 5SP, and 7CP (96 GP w/ Masterwork Backpack)
Total Weight: 27 (29/31 w/ Masterwork Backpack, but effective Str increases, which should be a net gain)
I would say that an ad hoc 50gp, 20-25 lbs would be a great "Standard Adventure's Kit" for thee items. A special note is that food and dining options, light sources, and a few specialty items are left out, as not everyone needs them. At most I wouls suggest a single trail ration, but between survival and frequncy of towns, that should rarely ever be an issue.
vs
which includes the "*" above items, and also adds; clay mug, dagger, fishhooks x2, sewing needle, signal whistle 50ft string, 50ft thread, and tail rations x7. (those items are 6 GP, 2SP, 4CP, 10 lbs, or totaling at 11GP, 3SP, 6CP, and 23.5 lbs).
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Dammit. I could understand the price difference, simply because of the economy of buying in bulk in real life, but the WEIGHT DIFFERENCE?!
I assume the OP's comparison is only for Medium characters. Small characters have different weights for some items. Rather than presenting Small and Medium versions of each kit, we made one kit and picked a weight in the middle.
What ticks me off more is that all of these kits assume your PC doesn't have darkvision. That means a lot of bought candles, lamps, etc that YOU don't need. I can understand being able to start a fire, even having some oil to help it along even if you have darkvision, but there's no need to carry light sources if you can already see in the bloody dark!
71% of the races in the Core Rulebook don't have darkvision, so it makes sense to include torches and such. Or do you really think the book should have "Kit, Adventurer's, Darkvision" and "Kit, Adventurer's, No Darkvision"? :)
I assume the OP's comparison is only for Medium characters. Small characters have different weights for some items. Rather than presenting Small and Medium versions of each kit, we made one kit and picked a weight in the middle.
Is this the case with all the kits? It's more or less standardized between them?
If so, it's nice to finally know the method/rationalization that was used. People have been asking for the explanation since the kits were revealed.
Thank you, Sean.
EDIT: What about the price difference? I know it's been said it's essentially a bulk/package discount, but what method did the developers behind the scenes use to come up with the price differentials?
Why? I've lived off of MRE "trail rations" for an extended time as well, (and still do) and they are not bad at all. I actually kind of miss them sometimes.
Dude, MRE's are CLASSY and tasty compared to trail rations for long periods. Some have compared them to trail mix, others to dry dog food. I actually HAVE lived off of trail mix, and it gets old after a few days. The kibble was worse.
71% of the races in the Core Rulebook don't have darkvision, so it makes sense to include torches and such. Or do you really think the book should have "Kit, Adventurer's, Darkvision" and "Kit, Adventurer's, No Darkvision"? :)
I have the APG. Current party is composed of an orc, goblin, aasimar, and a tweaked elf.
Oh, Sean? You didn't have to present different versions of the same kit. All you had to do is add in the Medium and Small weights on the same description. Would have added the space of all of a single number, compared to how it currently is.
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Dude, MRE's are CLASSY and tasty compared to trail rations for long periods. Some have compared them to trail mix, others to dry dog food. I actually HAVE lived off of trail mix, and it gets old after a few days. The kibble was worse.Why? I've lived off of MRE "trail rations" for an extended time as well, (and still do) and they are not bad at all. I actually kind of miss them sometimes.
A lot of days thats all I have time to eat. I like trail mix though.
I thought it said somewhere that the Adventurer's Kits for small characters were 3/4 the weight & cost (of the medium ones). I'm guessing that's not the way it is.
Oh, Sean? You didn't have to present different versions of the same kit. All you had to do is add in the Medium and Small weights on the same description. Would have added the space of all of a single number, compared to how it currently is.
The way you're talking to me is kinda rude.
I thought it said somewhere that the Adventurer's Kits for small characters were 3/4 the weight & cost (of the medium ones). I'm guessing that's not the way it is.
I don't recall any text that says that—probably because some of the items in a kit use the "Small = 1/4 weight" rule and some don't, so you can't universally apply that rule to the entire kit.
I thought it said somewhere that the Adventurer's Kits for small characters were 3/4 the weight & cost (of the medium ones). I'm guessing that's not the way it is.I don't recall any text that says that—probably because some of the items in a kit use the "Small = 1/4 weight" rule and some don't, so you can't universally apply that rule to the entire kit.
Do the items for small characters that count as 1/4 weight of a medium item cost any differently or are they the same price as the medium ones? I don't see anything saying that the prices are different, just the weights.
Unless it says otherwise, the costs are the same. Frex, none of the tables in the Core Rulebook have a footnote saying the price is different for Small characters—only the weight.
Oh wow. I'd heard this complaint before but never actually looked up the weight differences... that's really awful. :O
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Because I use HeroLab, I like to use the kits as shopping lists. They do have a nice generic mix of items listed.
Ok - so here's the list for small characters (sorry that it's in decimal instead of fraction like the medium-sized list)
Alchemist
Kit: 40g; 18 lb.
PM: 41g, 8s, 1c; 69.625 lb.
Barbarian
Kit: 9g; 19.5 lb.
PM: 8g, 9s, 1c; 18.125 lb.
Bard
Kit: 41g; 25.125 lb.
PM: 41g, 8s, 1c; 21.875 lb.
Cavalier
Kit: 23g; 84 lb.
PM: 25g, 9s, 6c; 113.625 lb.
Cleric
Kit: 16g; 24 lb.
PM: 16g, 8s, 1c; 32.125 lb.
Druid
Kit: 14g; 33 lb.
PM: 14g, 3s, 6c; 70.625 lb.
Fighter
Kit: 9g; 21.75 lb.
PM: 9g, 7s, 1c; 29.625 lb.
Gunslinger
Kit: 26g; 23.25 lb.
PM: 27g, 7s; 32.125 lb.
Inquisitor
Kit: 30g; 25.5 lb.
PM: 31g, 8s, 1c; 34.125 lb.
Magus
Kit: 22g; 23.25 lb.
PM: 22g, 8s, 1c; 31.125 lb.
Monk
Kit: 8g; 16.5 lb.
PM: 8g, 1s, 1c; 24.125 lb.
Oracle
Kit: 9g; 21.75 lb.
PM: 9g, 7s, 1c; 29.625 lb.
Paladin
Kit: 11g; 22.5 lb.
PM: 11g, 7s, 1c; 30.625 lb.
Ranger
Kit: 9g; 21 lb.
PM: 9g, 7s, 1c; 29.625 lb.
Rogue
Kit: 50g; 27.75 lb.
PM: 52g, 8s, 1c; 42.125 lb.
Sorcerer
Kit: 8g; 14.25 lb.
PM: 7g, 7s, 1c; 19.625 lb.
Summoner
Kit: 8g; 14.25 lb.
PM: 7g, 7s, 1c; 19.625 lb.
Witch
Kit: 21g; 15.75 lb.
PM: 22g, 1c; 21.125 lb.
Wizard
Kit: 21g; 15.75 lb.
PM: 21g, 8s, 1c; 21.125 lb.
since Sean has been posting, I might as well ask ... when removing an item (such as consumables) should we deduct the actual weight of the item(s) from the kit weight ....
or should we then calculate total weight from indivual weights as they aren't a "kit" anymore?
Because I use HeroLab, I like to use the kits as shopping lists. They do have a nice generic mix of items listed.
Yeah, same here.
The mechanic in herolab lets you buy the kit for its listed cost, then manually add all the items for free separately, then delete the kit item from your character.
I've just taken to using the listed kits as suggestions of good things to have, just like you said. I look it over, discount any items I don't need or want LIKE TORCHES FOR A CHARACTER WITH DARKVISION, then just buy all the things separately real quick.
If you're not using herolab, I'm sure this can be a bit tedious if you're in the habit of rolling up a lot of characters, but well, you gain the satisfaction of doing things the old fashioned way.
Oh, Sean? You didn't have to present different versions of the same kit. All you had to do is add in the Medium and Small weights on the same description. Would have added the space of all of a single number, compared to how it currently is.The way you're talking to me is kinda rude.
Not intended to be. The way I had it sounding in my head, it wasn't.
since Sean has been posting, I might as well ask ... when removing an item (such as consumables) should we deduct the actual weight of the item(s) from the kit weight ....
or should we then calculate total weight from indivual weights as they aren't a "kit" anymore?
It really doesn't matter.
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"Unless your character is weak or carrying a lot of gear, that's all you need to know; the extra gear your character carries won't slow him down any more than the armor already does."
If you're really at the point where you're nickel-and-diming the amount of gear you're carrying to see whether or not that changes your load category, you're playing a very different game than most campaigns. And if you want to worry about that sort of thing, go ahead, and figure out a method of dealing with kit weight that works for you. That may be subtracting a spent item's weight from kit's weight. That might be "blowing out" the kit once you open it so it matches the exact weight total of all the component parts, adjusted for your character's size, and then the weight of individual pieces is tracked. But it doesn't matter what method you use, as long as the GM and other players think it's fair.
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The assumptions that, that rule you quoted makes aren't very accurate to actual play. A standard load out for a given class will encumber most characters. I've lost count of how many characters were far more encumbered than the players thought they were. The numbers add up quick.
The assumptions that, that rule you quoted makes aren't very accurate to actual play. A standard load out for a given class will encumber most characters. I've lost count of how many characters were far more encumbered than the players thought they were. The numbers add up quick.
While you could be right, I have to ask how long until a character buys mules or porters or bags of holding etc.
As a GM, the worry over the weight of a single trail ration seems like one of those things I would only worry about in limited situations.
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I have an 8 Str oracle who can't carry a bag of holding. Everything she owns, less her armor, weighs less than 15 pounds, but she's already running into medium encumbrance. The GM thought he'd help her out by giving her a bag of holding. Everyone just thinks "Oh, give the gnome with 6 Str a bag of holding, and they'll be fine." Most of the time it actually makes their load heavier.
The assumptions that, that rule you quoted makes aren't very accurate to actual play. A standard load out for a given class will encumber most characters. I've lost count of how many characters were far more encumbered than the players thought they were. The numbers add up quick.
To repeat: "If you're really at the point where you're nickel-and-diming the amount of gear you're carrying to see whether or not that changes your load category, you're playing a very different game than most campaigns."
And to repeat: "But it doesn't matter what method you use, as long as the GM and other players think it's fair."
I'm done on this topic.
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Rules should be consistent amongst themselves, otherwise, nobody will know what's what.
Where does it say that? I don't see it mentioned anywhere.
I remember this molehill...
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Forgotten the most important rule already?
I have an 8 Str oracle who can't carry a bag of holding. Everything she owns, less her armor, weighs less than 15 pounds, but she's already running into medium encumbrance. The GM thought he'd help her out by giving her a bag of holding. Everyone just thinks "Oh, give the gnome with 6 Str a bag of holding, and they'll be fine." Most of the time it actually makes their load heavier.
Check out the spell ANT HAUL from the APG.
I didn't write the rules man.
You didn't quote any either.