Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see a large volume of group oriented content and quests than we currently see for MMOs. I find it disappointing to join into a Massively Multiplayer Online Game then end up spending a good portion of my time running around alone or just in proximity to players. Theres very little need to talk or interact with each other as simply having someone there makes the encounters go expeditiously.
Now I've played MMOs since Ultima and Everquest, playing the majority of them since then it's been a common trend for anything released after the WoW era to be more of a "soloing together" experience as a friend of mine coined. Individually in Everquest the NPC opposition was often stronger than the player - this made for people at the very least to double up.
While I'm not a huge fan of the "Camps" that arose because of their spawning system and the strength of such mobs, I believe treating enemies less like popcorn and more like real opposition could drive further interaction from players. This specifically was what made me develop long lasting bonds with many players in that game as I played a rogue and often couldn't do much alone other than explore (Sneak+Hide was awesome).
Ensuring enemies remain a constant challenge for an individual player will also drive for balanced groups mechanically and allow for people to interact both in the wild and towns.
Along this same thought process I'd love to see the return of Utility class play. Where Rogues are more than DPS, Casters can be something other than DPS or a healer. Everquest did this well with their Enchanters and Shamans making them fit a slight role in DPS caster or Healer, but also giving them extremely powerful buffs that compensated for their inadequacies compared to your more dedicated damage Mage or Healer.
Druids and Wizards had their unique perks as well to set them apart.
But integrating traps or hidden passages into level design that a racial or class based set of skills to spot or utilize these would also make for a difference in overall gameplay. A Return of traps to dungeons where Rangers and/or Rogues can detect and disarm them, or find a route to bypass an extremely difficult area would be amazing as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes! I very much agree; a nice mix of group vs solo content is very much needed in today's games! And not just the dungeon crawl that needs more players just to match the opposition, which is what we get now with recently released games, its the utility roles!!
...Or are we too old school to be expecting these to return??
Mirkk, and Bekan, where did you hear about Pathfinder Online? I'm just curious.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mirkk, and Bekan, where did you hear about Pathfinder Online? I'm just curious.
Stumbled across the Kickstarter while looking at the 'Wildman' kickstarter. I actually work in the Redmond\Kirkland area where this is being made and work in the video games industry.
I've been intrigued by the designs I've seen on the blog, and read as much as I can on the forums when I have time, which sadly isn't much free time between work commitments and attempting to have a social life of some kind.
Pathfinder as a PnP I haven't actually played as of yet, but I was always interested as it seemed like a good alternative to D&D which I played quite a bit of back when I was in Junior High and High School. Recently I've spent time playing GURPs which has a great deal of flexibility and Deathwatch which is a Warhammer 40k PnP.
Now the small plea I'm making here is already somewhat in the works in the sense of diversity, but bringing back opposition that isn't popcorn seems to be outside the design most people are comfortable with these days. The idea is to make the player feel "heroic" right out of the gate. While I understand the design, I miss the thought process required to successfully pull off a challenging encounter or work around.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One form of PvE that could lend itself well to group play is monster encampments. The idea is that monster groups will appear on the map near the edges of player controlled territory. If they're spotted early, they might be caught at a level where one player can crush the encampment. Not all of them will be spotted early, though. Encampments that have a chance to dig in are supposed to grow to the point where no solo player could hope to defeat them.
Maybe the larger monster groups will be a good source of group PvE.
PvP will also encourage grouping. Supposedly, the game will allow us to fight as a unit, with bonuses from group cohesion that just wouldn't be available to a bunch of people fighting solo next to each other. Howe they're going to pull that off isn't clear yet, but the unit cohesion bonuses should encourage tactics more advanced than the zerg rush seen in most PvP MMOs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO's current plan: mostly player generated content (settlement building and PvP), a light sprinkling of actual quests and dungeon crawls.
Does that context shed any light on this topic for you?
That's context, not content. What I'm looking at is explicitly PvE content design and implementation. I'd like the Orc tribe I need to wipe out to claim a hex to be more than just popcorn enemies I hack to bits with little thought or reason. Waltzing through a massacre of NPCs is fun for an Action RPG. But I'm looking for what PvE content that exists to persist as a real challenge. Utilize specialized skills from characters and make it so they aren't by default as a player vastly superior to the NPCs.
I do see your point though much of the opposition is going to be other players in the field. I'd just like to see the NPCs you face actually posing a threat. EVE had that concept in their missions making it so the NPCs had the same ships and capabilities as the players. This made is so challenging fights could be actually challenging for ship to ship combat. But by no means did it make it really impossible.
At some point, someplace they'll have to be NPCs the player can combat, steal from or otherwise interact with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One form of PvE that could lend itself well to group play is monster encampments. The idea is that monster groups will appear on the map near the edges of player controlled territory. If they're spotted early, they might be caught at a level where one player can crush the encampment. Not all of them will be spotted early, though. Encampments that have a chance to dig in are supposed to grow to the point where no solo player could hope to defeat them.
Maybe the larger monster groups will be a good source of group PvE.
PvP will also encourage grouping. Supposedly, the game will allow us to fight as a unit, with bonuses from group cohesion that just wouldn't be available to a bunch of people fighting solo next to each other. Howe they're going to pull that off isn't clear yet, but the unit cohesion bonuses should encourage tactics more advanced than the zerg rush seen in most PvP MMOs.
I'd like to see the PvP operate more like DAOC rather than WoW or ever SWTOR. The running in circles to try to avoid combat or leaping about I always found rather annoying.
DAOC's method to compensate for that behavior was an Auto-Face of target actively engaged in combat. They also had an Auto-Attack to determine the combat state though. I'm sure a similar method can be done without the need to have it tied to the auto-attack in behavior.
I do agree the PvP and unit cohesion will play a roll in generating a pack mentality in some ways forcing group combat. But my plea here is more driven toward PvE encounters which will need to exist to cater to another audience for this genre of game.
Many of the designs I've read thus far have been ambitious, expansive and fairly well thought out. There is a great deal of promise. I'm hoping it all turns out to make effectively what will be a long-lived and beloved title to experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO's current plan: mostly player generated content (settlement building and PvP), a light sprinkling of actual quests and dungeon crawls.
Does that context shed any light on this topic for you?
There will be plenty of PvE content, it is how you get stuff into the game. There will probably be a very strong PvE focus, I'm guessing most groups will find it easier to get stuff on their own, then to try and steal it from other players.
The catch, is that in the good dungeons(super), and while out defending your encampment, players can also be attacking you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last I heard there would be very little in the way of explicit PvE content outside of the superdungeon, the variable location dungeons, and mob escalations.
The primary content is what the players will provide, not so much the environment, at least until we get the tools to build our own.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be plenty of PvE content, it is how you get stuff into the game. There will probably be a very strong PvE focus, I'm guessing most groups will find it easier to get stuff on their own, then to try and steal it from other players.
The catch, is that in the good dungeons(super), and while out defending your encampment, players can also be attacking you.
From the sound of things so far, PvE combat may not be the direct source of much stuff, at least not finished, ready-to-use stuff. It sounds like player-made gear will be more common than looted gear. PvE enemies seem more likely to drop damaged equipment that can be salvaged than swords +1.
Would you consider gathering/mining/etc to be PvE content? So far, it sounds like resource gathering and crafting will be the major source of finished goods.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be plenty of PvE content, it is how you get stuff into the game. There will probably be a very strong PvE focus, I'm guessing most groups will find it easier to get stuff on their own, then to try and steal it from other players.
The catch, is that in the good dungeons(super), and while out defending your encampment, players can also be attacking you.
From the sound of things so far, PvE combat may not be the direct source of much stuff, at least not finished, ready-to-use stuff. It sounds like player-made gear will be more common than looted gear. PvE enemies seem more likely to drop damaged equipment that can be salvaged than swords +1.
Would you consider gathering/mining/etc to be PvE content? So far, it sounds like resource gathering and crafting will be the major source of finished goods.
PvE is the origin of all coin and resources. PvE rewards will never be usable equipment, it will either be salvageable, or raw material, this was stated in the If I Had A Hammer blog. And looting a usable item from a player will be rare, I believe most gear will bought from crafters, than looted from other players.
I do consider gathering/mining PvE. In PFO PvP is a constant possibility except while inside a dungeon(or module if/when they are implemented). This is really a issue of interpretation, PvP to me is when to parties are in direct confrontation. I don't consider an activity PvP just because the possibility is there, because that possibility is everywhere. Mining triggers PvE interactions, as does dropping a structure, so I see them as PvE content.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with Mirkk, in hoping that what PVE content there is, that it be more then just kill 10 x of this, or it will expand and now you have to kill 20 x.
It would be cool if when the hex incursions take place, and the mobs attack a settlement, they have a varied objective and some story behind it.
1. Goblin hordes attack your settlement, but they leave the bank alone and steal the stores from the tavern and make off with several bar maids.
2. As a small party you receive a contract to track down and resque the bar maids, returning them to the settlement, unharmed.
3. While tracking the goblin horde you discover a burial area, where the bodies of many female goblins have been laid to rest on a pyr.
4. After several miles more of travel into the forest, you come across a strange scene. The bar maids are surrounded by male, goblin warriors. But the maidens are unharmed, and are not even being harrassed.
5. You see the maids are taking care of some of the Goblins', sickly young, feeding them from the stolen stores of the settlement.
You ponder the alignment and reputation implications of your next action....
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with Mirkk, in hoping that what PVE content there is, that it be more then just kill 10 x of this, or it will expand and now you have to kill 20 x.
It would be cool if when the hex incursions take place, and the mobs attack a settlement, they have a varied objective and some story behind it.
1. Goblin hordes attack your settlement, but they leave the bank alone and steal the stores from the tavern and make off with several bar maids.
2. Etc.
You ponder the alignment and reputation implications of your next action....
That would be awesome, especially if it only happened that way once for every 20 goblin incursions. That would be a lot of coding for a one-time event, but it would get predictable and boring if every goblin incursion went that way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with Mirkk, in hoping that what PVE content there is, that it be more then just kill 10 x of this, or it will expand and now you have to kill 20 x.
It would be cool if when the hex incursions take place, and the mobs attack a settlement, they have a varied objective and some story behind it.
1. Goblin hordes attack your settlement, but they leave the bank alone and steal the stores from the tavern and make off with several bar maids.
2. As a small party you receive a contract to track down and resque the bar maids, returning them to the settlement, unharmed.
3. While tracking the goblin horde you discover a burial area, where the bodies of many female goblins have been laid to rest on a pyr.
4. After several miles more of travel into the forest, you come across a strange scene. The bar maids are surrounded by male, goblin warriors. But the maidens are unharmed, and are not even being harrassed.
5. You see the maids are taking care of some of the Goblins', sickly young, feeding them from the stolen stores of the settlement.
You ponder the alignment and reputation implications of your next action....
Kill them all, including the barmaids, and raise them as zombies.
What do I win?
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I think that many of you are underestimating how much all of you are correct. Yes, PvP and 'user generated content' - i.e. setting up resouce gathering areas, defending it from local monsters, fighting off bandits while bringing it back to town or being the bandits doing the raiding, etc. will be a major source of what players will do in the game, if GW spends the time(and I don't see why they wouldn't) a randomly generated dungeon system could give many of the PvE fans loads of what they want.
Any of you old school players of D&D(original AD&D and even before that) surely remember randomly generated dungeons/encounters. There is a long history of it in the genre. As long as there is ENOUGH randomization to the type of monster and layout, as well as a wide variety of traps, secret rooms/passages AND GW does a good job of making them CHALLENGING.
The best part about this approach is adding only a few options to the system every couple of months will significantly change things. The same thing could be done with monster escalation, as well. I do hope, that with monster escalation, they do a good job of making the players feel that killing off the critters is actually helping to get rid of the problem. If there's a rampaging ogre tribe with goblin and hobgoblin servants in a hex, led by a strong ogre magi chieftain then things should be set up to work like an adventure. Killing a few goblins and hobgoblins might not do a lot to curb the tribes raids, but kill ENOUGH of their raiding parties(and the ogres leading the parties!) will lead to deescalation OR bring the ogre magi to the forefront of the battles. Killing him causes the tribe to disperse(likely while all the ogres battle - causing horrible casualties - for who will be the next chieftain!)
The amount of things that could be done with this are limitless. With the proper scripting, and enough randomization, it would likely never get old. Exploration is a BIG part of what attracts people to video games and MMO's in particular. When you start getting into things like this, it should be pretty easy to make things never get stale. 10 lists of options with 5 options per list is 100,000 different dungeons. 20 lists with 10 options is 10,240,000,000,000 different ones. That's not even a lot, really. 11 lists with 5 options is 161,051 - over a 60% increase in content just by adding a single 5 option list. Even sillier, by just adding a single extra option to each list, you go from 100,000 to 1,000,000 different dungeons and if you do BOTH you go from 100,000 to 1,771,561 options.
The point is, adding new random PvE content shouldn't be THAT hard. Yes, the initial investment in time will be long and laborious. Once the initial investment in programming time has been made, it should be rather simple to keep adding more stuff so that even the veterans never get tired of seeing the same dungeon with the same mobs, over and over and over again.
That's what I would like to see for PFO's PvE content. Enough random dungeon content to keep things fresh always and a feeling that me killing things in PvE actually makes a difference in the world. Oh yeah, the last thing I want is random quest givers! When I'm in an area near a 'dungeon' a random event should play with goblins chasing a haggard(but beautiful!) elf maiden for me to rescue! She'll tell me that she just escaped the horrible goblin tribe in the nearby abandoned mine! Please, get vengeance for her! This could also happen in local inns/taverns with some traveling merchant informing you of him being attacked by lizard men, finding a dying ranger begging you to rescue his comrades from trolls and so on and so forth. The best part, is this would be a part of the randomization system too.
Anyway, I can go on like this for days and this post is already a book. Whaddaya think?
I don't think NPC quest givers are planned to be very prominent, though I could be wrong.
I don't think NPC quest givers are planned to be very prominent, though I could be wrong.
But, that would be the point. You wouldn't have the same guy in town randomly giving out quests. It would be a random event, like it is in the fiction. Random doesn't have to mean uncommon. It just means that when you see an NPC in the wilder parts of hexes(or just wilder hexes) you should consider talking to them. It gives another interesting reason for people to actually spend time in taverns and inns.
You know, for people to interact with the world around them. To buy and USE skills normally ignored in MMO's. Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Knowledge skills. Skills that are difficult to work into the game in ways that are meaningful where most of the actual interaction is between players.
The NPC gives the quest out to whoever first talks to them(they've already said random dungeons will be 'locked' to the first person to find them - this would qualify as 'finding them') and then wanders out of town, off into the wilderness, gets killed horribly by wandering packs of tarrasques(sorry - inside joke), or whatever else is appropriate.
So, there you go. NPC quest givers won't be very prominent. They'll do their thing and then go away. Maybe not all the time, but at least some of the time...
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I think that many of you are underestimating how much all of you are correct. Yes, PvP and 'user generated content' - i.e. setting up resouce gathering areas, defending it from local monsters, fighting off bandits while bringing it back to town or being the bandits doing the raiding, etc. will be a major source of what players will do in the game, if GW spends the time(and I don't see why they wouldn't) a randomly generated dungeon system could give many of the PvE fans loads of what they want.
Any of you old school players of D&D(original AD&D and even before that) surely remember randomly generated dungeons/encounters. There is a long history of it in the genre. As long as there is ENOUGH randomization to the type of monster and layout, as well as a wide variety of traps, secret rooms/passages AND GW does a good job of making them CHALLENGING.
Like you I expect procedurally generated PVE content to be the order of the day; what it lacks in story it makes up for in variety. However we shouldn't underestimate the difficulty of getting different options to mesh smoothly in a 3D world. It's one thing to generate endless 2D maps in a rogue-like game where everything always lines up neatly and there are no significant art resources to consider. In 3D, with slopes and lighting and textures that need to mesh properly and creatures with AI that need to react to the layout...
I think there will be a need for significant human curation of anything randomly generated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with Mirkk, in hoping that what PVE content there is, that it be more then just kill 10 x of this, or it will expand and now you have to kill 20 x...
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That is an example of what works in the PnP but not a MMO, a GM can describe a scene and lead the player towards certain inferences. It's too detailed for what has to be a randomly generated coinsurance. What you outlined would be a good side mission for a single player game.
To translate that chain of events into an MMO, I strike the moral dilemma, and have the goblins steal a randomly targeted storage cache. In the aftermath settlement officials can create a contract to track down these goblins and recover the missing goods.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm thinking about an orc tribe that has taken over or build a stake or a pole fortress. PC would need to have a small army and craft siege engines to over take it, send stealth specialists to climb the towers to take out the guards or bomb them. The army would have to break the gate(could only be done with siege-engines) for sub-chiefs with henchmen to appear, after the sub-chiefs have been killed, the orc chief would appear with lots of henchmen. After the chief would be killed the orc threat would cease to escalate.
The army would have to be vary of another settlement to appear on the spot and attack their rear.
Sometime after the fight the spot would be ready for PCs to start building their own buildings and settlement on the spot.
Like you I expect procedurally generated PVE content to be the order of the day; what it lacks in story it makes up for in variety. However we shouldn't underestimate the difficulty of getting different options to mesh smoothly in a 3D world. It's one thing to generate endless 2D maps in a rogue-like game where everything always lines up neatly and there are no significant art resources to consider. In 3D, with slopes and lighting and textures that need to mesh properly and creatures with AI that need to react to the layout...I think there will be a need for significant human curation of anything randomly generated.
Well of course. It's why I talked about there being a considerable amount of time invested at the beginning. This being said, if all the pieces are made made in such a way as to take these things into account, it will be much easier.
Just a 'for instance' would be this. The 1st table randomly rolled is what type of monster makes up the dungeon. It could be generic(undead, aberrations, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, etc. - influenced by a 'level' the dungeon is set at, i.e. are the undead zombies and skeletons or wraiths and vampires?) Then once you have determined which of these you'll get, you go to the next table. Let's say we rolled monstrous humanoids, then on the subtable we got goblins. We go to the 'goblin' subtable. They can appear in abandoned mines, natural caverns, monster village, etc. Once this is determined, the game sets up the encounters FIRST. Where they are, how many as well as the end boss fight. Only when a PC(or group of them) enters does it throw down the lay out. Then it can tailor the dungeon for the group going in - there could even be a difficulty level slider for better challenges and rewards.
The point is that, if GW is smart it doesn't have to be that difficult. It may take a lot of work, but that's going to be a part of any job of this size. If done right, it may not give you a giant overarcing story affecting the entire campaign like dungeons do in themepark games, but it can give you a cool ministory. An adventure, even. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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group oriented content and quests than we currently see for MMOs.
Individually in Everquest the NPC opposition was often stronger than the player - this made for people at the very least to double up. While I'm not a huge fan of the "Camps" that arose because of their spawning system and the strength of such mobs, I believe treating enemies less like popcorn and more like real opposition could drive further interaction from players.
Ensuring enemies remain a constant challenge for an individual player will also drive for balanced groups mechanically and allow for people to interact both in the wild and towns.
Along this same thought process I'd love to see the return of Utility class play. Where Rogues are more than DPS, Casters can be something other than DPS or a healer.
Druids and Wizards had their unique perks as well to set them apart.
But integrating traps or hidden passages into level design that a racial or class based set of skills to spot or utilize these would also make for a difference in overall gameplay. A Return of traps to dungeons where Rangers and/or Rogues can detect and disarm them, or find a route to bypass an extremely difficult area would be amazing as well.
(1) Group-Content seems to be the name of the game in PFO: Maximizing the player-player interactions (contracts, trade, subcontexts of pvp combat, social affiliations). Also players primarily advance their "agendas" through contract system with each other as opposed to quests. Though for skill-achievements, it seems you have have certain activities that perhaps might be quest-like. For more on groups: LFG! (Looking for Group!)
(2) I agree Mobs/NPCs should be non-trivial ie to engage in combat there should be a cost to players (I think in terms of consumables) and a risk (I think specialisations will be required eg good at killing undead?). And it should be for a reason (eg slaying mobs at harvesting/gathering site in the sticks to allow the common folk to work unmolested). I also think that mobs should not stand alone by themselves waiting to be hewn down by players: Maybe the escalation cycle will make mobs more meaningful to combat as they proliferate and pose serious problems for solo'ers (overwhelmed) and for settlements (economic and hazard and mortal danger).
As a hex is settled and developed this changes the spawning of the mobs and dungeons to higher level mobs/npcs and dungeons - so I think this is how that will work in terms of "out-levelling" that often happens in themepark zones.
(3) Because it's a skill-based system, I think it's been said by GW enough times that Groups will be needed because different players will have different specialisms that will be required. Eg skills that are useful against PvE types and different skills I think I'm right in saying for PvP problems. So this then ties into other players being content eg those bandits will be other players not mobs and therefore the risk is all the greater when your group is out and about. And again if your dungeoneering team find a dungeon, other groups may also find an entry and so there will be mobs and other players to contest the treasures of this place.
A quick summary of some of the PvE slanted blogs:
Adventure in the River Kingdoms for PvE discussion eg Out of Adventure, Explorations, Development, Dominion - the Adventure content seems to apply to eg a party of adventurers exploring a dungeon. etc.
Where the Wild Things Are for Dungeons and mobs
Designing Thornkeep gives a taste of some of the lore
Live Through This for NPC Alliances
Probably more could be said in future blogs on the escalation cycle - which sounds like a great way to make solitary standard mobs actually dangerous, organised and mobile.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the original post might be well rephrased as "There should exist PvE content which is Hard and requires significant coordination and cooperation within groups."
I agree, and that is why my interpretation of what the OP meant when talking about PvE he wasn't talking about harvesting the environment, but fighting system-operated opponents.
GW has been saying all along there wasn't going to be much of that outside of escalation hexes and variable-location dungeons, and it did not sound at all like said dungeons would be common.
Plus it would not make any sense at all if the superdungeon being crafted by all those remarkable authors were left out, so I count that in PvE content.
But my impression is that by far the greatest amount of content will be from 'meaningful player interaction'. That isn't the context, but the substance of this game. The PvE (where PvE is pointing at non-player opponents) is peripheral rather than core.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My understanding of The Plan is that in release there will be some GW-run in-game events involving at least human-guided Goblins interacting with player characters. Alpha pledges are to play the role of these critters under the close direction of GW staff. If we use too much latitude we could lose the privilege too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope we have really dangerous NPC threats, that will recquire big groups of players to get rid off.
Latelly,I would like to see harder stuff, that will recquire enormous aliances, even among enemies, as evil + Good settlements/kingdons to fight it. A demon legion leaded by a high power demon, or a dragon with powerfull minions, a big army of undeads leaded by a powerful lich etc. It would be a rare event , once or twice a year, and would only happen after the developpment of settlers and estabilishment of well organized kingdons.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last I heard there would be very little in the way of explicit PvE content outside of the superdungeon, the variable location dungeons, and mob escalations.
The primary content is what the players will provide, not so much the environment, at least until we get the tools to build our own.
I suspect the escalations will be fairly serious, and I'm hoping that they can trigger whole invasions.
If the spirit of Pathfinder is preserved at all, some of the more powerful humanoid NPCs will have "class levels" (or, rather, their PfO analog), and should pose a significant challenge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... opposition that isn't popcorn...
PFO's design is brilliant on a number of levels.
In this case, the players are the content, and I'm quite confident none of the players intend to be popcorn :)
What I'm looking at is explicitly PvE content design and implementation. I'd like the Orc tribe I need to wipe out to claim a hex to be more than just popcorn enemies I hack to bits with little thought or reason.
Another level of brilliance in PFO's design.
You won't have to kill thousands of mobs and do hundreds of quests in order to advance along your progression path. So there's no incentive to create easy mobs that most players can wade through without too much frustration.
At least for the early part of the game, the vast majority of PvE content will involve the Escalations, which are intended to threaten Settlements (dungeons and super-dungeons are tied to the escalations in the hex). There's a huge difference in the default way you'd build a mob that a level 1 wizard needs to be able to solo in order to level up, versus building mobs that are meant to be a credible threat to a Settlement that might have hundreds of players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Give the players the option to create quests.
As people expand into the surrounding lands, they will encounter monstrous opposition that may be more then they want or are able to handle. If an enterprising woodcutter sets up a camp on a particularly valuable node that happens to be near a 'Mosseater Goblin' camp, let him post a quest or two. The first could be a simple 'Kill 10 Mosseater Goblins' or a 'bounty on Mosseater Goblins'. Set it as recurring as long as the reward money pool lasts. The second could be 'Eliminate the Mosseater Goblin camp' with a one-time reward. Since the Mosseater Goblins only spawn in the area near where the harvest node is, the job would need to allow location information to be given (hex/subhex maybe).
If you also have the option to limit who can take the job (by alignment, reputation, company affiliation, settlement, etc) the gatherers for a group could drive the actions of their PvE friends.
I hope we have really dangerous NPC threats, that will recquire big groups of players to get rid off.
Latelly,I would like to see harder stuff, that will recquire enormous aliances, even among enemies, as evil + Good settlements/kingdons to fight it.
I'm positive this will happen, fairly soon once the settlement and escalation systems are in place. A lone group, popping up in an out of the way corner of a hex will escape notice and grow until it spills over into neighboring hexes. We know that at certain points in the escalation process a leader will spawn. We don't know much past that but judging from what we've heard, there will be PvE challenges for new players and experienced players alike. Personally I can't wait to see how it plays out. Most games wouldn't add an element that has the potential to get out of control. I just love this possibility, it will force players to think on their feet, to make alliances they wouldn't normally think to make in order to save their settlements.
Good job GW! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Give the players the option to create quests.
As people expand into the surrounding lands, they will encounter monstrous opposition that may be more then they want or are able to handle. If an enterprising woodcutter sets up a camp on a particularly valuable node that happens to be near a 'Mosseater Goblin' camp, let him post a quest or two. The first could be a simple 'Kill 10 Mosseater Goblins' or a 'bounty on Mosseater Goblins'. Set it as recurring as long as the reward money pool lasts. The second could be 'Eliminate the Mosseater Goblin camp' with a one-time reward. Since the Mosseater Goblins only spawn in the area near where the harvest node is, the job would need to allow location information to be given (hex/subhex maybe).
If you also have the option to limit who can take the job (by alignment, reputation, company affiliation, settlement, etc) the gatherers for a group could drive the actions of their PvE friends.
You will have this available. Mostly through the forums or an in game posting. You recruit a select group of your choosing to take care of the problem. There probably wont be a game mechanic to handle this completely, but who knows.
You will have this available. Mostly through the forums or an in game posting. You recruit a select group of your choosing to take care of the problem. There probably wont be a game mechanic to handle this completely, but who knows.Give the players the option to create quests.
As people expand into the surrounding lands, they will encounter monstrous opposition that may be more then they want or are able to handle. If an enterprising woodcutter sets up a camp on a particularly valuable node that happens to be near a 'Mosseater Goblin' camp, let him post a quest or two. The first could be a simple 'Kill 10 Mosseater Goblins' or a 'bounty on Mosseater Goblins'. Set it as recurring as long as the reward money pool lasts. The second could be 'Eliminate the Mosseater Goblin camp' with a one-time reward. Since the Mosseater Goblins only spawn in the area near where the harvest node is, the job would need to allow location information to be given (hex/subhex maybe).
If you also have the option to limit who can take the job (by alignment, reputation, company affiliation, settlement, etc) the gatherers for a group could drive the actions of their PvE friends.
According to some of the GW blogs, this is the whole POINT of having the resource camps having to be set up by players. Setting up a resource gathering camp in a hex that is 'higher' on the escalation scale will mean better and MORE resources because it will be harder to hold a camp there, thus less operations. More NPC mobs will be attacking it, and tougher ones as well. It also means that the camps will be higher on the hit list for PC predators as well.
As far as posting quests goes, I'm not certain how this will work 100%(GW probably doesn't either at this point) but hiring PC guards or mercenaries or recruiting from your settlement or perhaps a reputable adventuring guild will certainly play into that, somehow.
So yeah, the whole point of doing the resource gathering system this way is to give adventurers something to do... to provide them with content, so to speak.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There was mention in the blogs of settlements offering contracts to handle nearby escalations, and settlements themselves have incentive to take out escalations that have already spawned 'leader class' mobs because it is from those mob leaders that settlement artifacts drop, artifacts that will enhance their town in some way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Give the players the option to create quests.This will be available via the Contract system as well.
Instead of collecting 10 wolf skins for Skinner Pete (NPC), you'll be collecting 10 wolf skins for Leatherworker Baelfyre (PC).
I was thinking of the contracts along with this, though that's more gather-y than fight-y. And I dunno that orc and goblin skins will have much use (goblin-hide armor +1..... hmm....). Mostly the simple option of being able to place a bounty on a specific type of NPC, and limit who can collect on it, all monitored by the system itself is what I envision.
I'm sure you could do about the same thing with combat logs within your own group, but part of the point is to open up the social aspect. Gobbo-b-Gone Exterminators might not care about your company or personal goals, but if they're being paid to kill goblins, they are happy.
An out of game solution, while feasible, is very open to fraud, especially if you open it up to more and more groups/individuals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Sintaqx, they haven't released any real details, so this is mostly speculation on my part, but I expect there to be some really cool ways to define Contracts to get other players to help your Settlement deal with its local Escalation. I expect that will be very much along the lines of "go and kill a bunch of these mobs"... at least in effect :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the original post might be well rephrased as "There should exist PvE content which is Hard and requires significant coordination and cooperation within groups."
That may be apt. But its more that the desire is for the majority of PvE content to exhibit this sort of difficulty and significance.
I'm all for player driven content, I'll spend a lot of time creating content, but there also needs to be a general sense of a challenge otherwise this doesn't feel rewarding to an end user.
The drive toward easy popcorn enemies that you just slaughter for the sake of slaughter or a number drive quest feels too easy and relatively unimportant other than getting a few coffers and finishing the quest.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I think there will be a need for significant human curation of anything randomly generated.Well of course. It's why I talked about there being a considerable amount of time invested at the beginning. This being said, if all the pieces are made made in such a way as to take these things into account, it will be much easier.
[... good example ...]
The point is that, if GW is smart it doesn't have to be that difficult. It may take a lot of work, but that's going to be a part of any job of this size. If done right, it may not give you a giant overarcing story affecting the entire...
I think we're violently agreeing. Merging threads, see here for Ryan's perspective on why it's harder than it looks to do it well.
In line with you, I expect that procedural generation will be how the majority of PVE content will be implemented in PFO. But realistically we shouldn't expect 100,000 or more good, playable, distinct options to emerge, for the reasons that Ryan outlines better than I could.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There can be all levels of good PvE content. MAny gamers seem to think if there is any PvE content, a game is not a sandbox. That is a false argument.
EVE (again) has a PvE event called Incursions. These are very large scale invasions of full constellations (5-10 star systems) by an Empire called "Sansha's Nation" run by a rogue character that enslaves millions of inhabitants on planets (non-capsuleers, NPC's you never see). But when these incursions happen, a wormhole pops open and hundreds of Battleships come thru. There are a few YouTube videos where players caught the earliest minutes of the invasion and they are gloriously terrifying. The guys filming it most certainly get blown to smithereens, but the invasions are cool to behold. Then, it takes several hundred very experienced players a week or so to finally defeat the invaders and make the constellation safe again for normal traffic.
No one thinks these events take the sandbox feeling away from EVE online. These are fun, a way for players to make a decent pile of reward cash, some great salvage, improve their security rating, and not risk PvP. It's a win mechanic.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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There can be all levels of good PvE content. MAny gamers seem to think if there is any PvE content, a game is not a sandbox. That is a false argument.
[... cool stuff about incursions ...]
That sounds like just what late cycle escalations should be. Except linked to the dominant theme of the hex that the escalation is emerging from, and potentially with resolutions other than combat for certain player communities with certain factional alliances.
Nice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There can be all levels of good PvE content. MAny gamers seem to think if there is any PvE content, a game is not a sandbox. That is a false argument.
[... cool stuff about incursions ...]
That sounds like just what late cycle escalations should be. Except linked to the dominant theme of the hex that the escalation is emerging from, and potentially with resolutions other than combat for certain player communities with certain factional alliances.
Nice.
That does sound like a pretty awesome PvE event to occur. My purpose in throwing that plea out there is to have less of the popcorn enemies than what we see in current MMOs. playing SWTOR and being a trooper I can use Mortar shot to take out groups of 10+ enemies if I just grab a bunch force a LOS issue then they all huddle together once they see me again and throw the AoE attack on them.
But for that particular title, I think the normals should be the same difficulty as a strong, the strongs should be about a star, and the champs should be closer to what bosses are. As it stands I can take out champs if I really want and using just a few consumables.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No one thinks these events take the sandbox feeling away from EVE online. These are fun, a way for players to make a decent pile of reward cash, some great salvage, improve their security rating, and not risk PvP. It's a win mechanic.
Quite the opposite in fact, it draws people (forces them?) together for a specific goal, but doesn't railroad them with respect to how they achieve that goal.
These large scale events that run for days/weeks are exactly what I hope PFO has. That small tribe of orcs in the wilds that grows larger and larger. They capture and train a pack of wolves/worgs to assist them. They waylay some caravans and get better armor and weapons, they get other tribes to join them through force or intimidation...suddenly, a several thousand strong orc force with wolves, shaman and basic gear is threatening a settlement. Do you rush to their aid? Do you smuggle goods into the settlement to sell during the battle? Do you slip in undetected to kill that annoying opponent of yours that you have been chasing for years? Do you hold off for a few days and then rally several companies to your side and ride in and save they day...making sure you're the hero in doing so? Endless content all spawned from a random band of orcs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So yeah, the whole point of doing the resource gathering system this way is to give adventurers something to do
The (assumed) beauty of the design is that certain players care about certain escalation cycles, and would be willing to pay others to advance (or slow?) them.
-Leo the Legendary leatherworker wants some top quality colossal dire bear fur, and is happy to offer veteran players a 'quest' for this. Since the colossal dire bear only spawns at the end of a certain escalation cycle, he may even offer the players 'quests' to advance the cycle, chase away competing hunters etc.
-Lisa the lumberjack wants to harvest exotic materials growing in the dire bear woods. She has no interest in driving the escalation cycle forward (spawning the much too dangerous colossal dire bear), but offer players a 'quest' to protect her and her harvesting operation.
-Matt the Mayor sees that the neighboring escalation towards treants and colossal dire bears lowers his settlements 'civilization' rating, and offers players 'quests' to pacify that specific hex and build a watchtower there.
I really hope some cycles can go in different directions depending on how people interact with the PVE content. (ie inviting the evil cultists into your settlement; helping the dryads tear down player structures and chase away the harvesters; negotiating an alliance with the goblins...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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...My purpose in throwing that plea out there is to have less of the popcorn enemies than what we see in current MMOs...
In current MMOs you see these popcorn NPCs almost exclusively because of two reasons:
1. You have to kill hundreds and hundreds of them to advance with no alternative.
2. The games need to attract a huge number of players to generate revenue and thus are build for very inexperienced/casual players until the very endgame and then some.
Neither reason applies to PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last I heard there would be very little in the way of explicit PvE content outside of the superdungeon, the variable location dungeons, and mob escalations.
The primary content is what the players will provide, not so much the environment, at least until we get the tools to build our own.
If every hex has a variable dungeon (random) that is a lot of good PvE content. I think this game needs a lot of PvE content for all levels.
Fantasy sandbox has never worked because people playing a fantasy game want dungeons to do. If there is not a lot of PvE then it devolves to RISK as a MMO or Civilization the MMO where we are trying to build kingdoms but for a very circular reason. I need resources to make stuff so I will make a settlement which means I need resources to make stuff and someone else wants my resources so we fight a war which means lots of stuff gets destroyed which means I need more resources to kill stuff, etc... its just a circle. If you are adding PvE content, especially if it is player generated, you have something else for fantasy oriented players to be attracted to.
This game needs dungeons (even random per hex is fine), and it needs more epic quest lines culminating in a RAID.