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I am going to play a Magus starting level 5 and i would like to know how it is told in the rules I know there is a lot of discussion but I would like some rules quotes and opinions
Here is the question:
Round 1 spell combat: I cast Frostbite I get to deliver the charge through spellstrike so I hit the target and got 4 charges left I hit it again with my normal attack
Then the second round I got 3 charges of frostbite left but I want to spell combat so I cast arcane mark. at that moment does frostbite disappear or doesn’t it?
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge
In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
bolded for emphasis, once you cast arcane mark your remaining charges are lost.
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Frostbite isn't holding a charge. It is a spell with a set number of uses:
"You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level."
It is part of the "chill touch" line of spells, where you get 1 touch/level with the spell.
My opinion is that it wouldn't dissipate if you cast another spell as you aren't holding it, Arlandor opinion is that it would.
Honestly Chill touch and all the spell sharing its wording would benefit from a clarification.
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Chill touch is a weird spell. The touch attacks it grants do not function as "held charges." They don't disappear if you cast another spell, and the spell is pretty vague on how long the effects last—in theory, you could cast the spell on a Tuesday and still have some touches left over on Friday, for example, as long as you haven't made more touches than your level. Re-casting the spell when you still have charges left doesn't add to the existing charges—it merely resets your total available touches to its maximum.A question about chill touch and similar spells with an istantaneous duration and multiple touches.
The touches after the first round count as held charges and so disappear if you cast any other spell?
James, this came up the other night. A player cast chill touch, which states he can touch one target per level, but the spell has an instantaneous duration. Does his hand remain charged until he touches as many targets as he has levels or can he just sweep around and touch everyone nearby? I'm assuming his hand stays charged and he can make one touch attack a round. So how long would his hand retain the charge? (I ruled 1 round per level, but other similar spells continue for 1 minute per level.)
Chill touch is worded awkwardly. I'm not sure what the intent there is, honestly... worth FAQing.
I suspect the intent is, actually, to let you make multiple attacks over the course of the next several rounds, up to a maximum number of times equal to your level.
Sorry if this has been asked before. How does the chill touch spell work?
I beleave it works like a held charge for subsequent attacks. Being able to discharge those touches as one standard action per round or if using bab with unarmed attacks or as a magus using spellstrike.
There just seems to crop up alot of confusion on the rules forum but never a definative answer.Chill touch essentially gives you a weapon that you can make a number of attacks with equal to your level. It's certainly poorly worded—it probably SHOULD say something more like a duraiton of 1 round/level and that you can make 1 attack each round. Unless what it's REALLY trying to say is that you can make 1 attack per level, so that if you have iterative attacks or haste effects you might be able to make the attack more than 1 time per round.
Pick the one you like better if you're the GM. If you're a player, ask your GM. If you're a player in Pathfinder Society who gets caught up on these rules, prepare burning hands or shocking grasp instead. :P
As JJ repeated in those post and in some other, he is giving his interpretation of the rules but he is not sure if that is the RAI and the RAW id a bit messy.
We old timer that have played 1st and 2nd edition AD&D remember how the spell started and we think that we have the RAI of it, but ti really could benefit from a better wording as the rules about held charges make it a bit unclear.
Especially as now we have several spells, like Frosbite, that share the mechanic without a clear official rule.
I cast arcane mark. at that moment does frostbite disappear or doesn’t it?
RAW only, meaning just the rules printed in the book: It disappears. Frostbite/Chill Touch are touch spells, so they follow all the normal rules for touch spells. You hold the charge, can deliver it with unarmed strike/natural attacks, etc.
The RAI by James Jacobs is that it's only a touch spell for the first delivery, and after that it changes to a touch attack. This means it doesn't hold the charge, and stops functioning like a touch spell. Doesn't dissipate, can't accidentally discharge it, etc. This means it's easy to stack up lots of touch effects (Frostbite+Chill Touch+Elemental Touch+Shocking Grasp=all will discharge on the next touch). Normally, this would also mean you can't use those touch attacks with Spellstrike, but an unrelated post by JB implied you can, though he may not have been thinking of the spell working the same way James does.
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Grick, a question about Spellstrike and held charges.
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
There is something that I find unclear here.
To paraphrase it say that when the magus cast a spell with a range of touch he can channel it through his weapon.I don't see anything about using spellstrike with a held charge, there are instead a lot of repetitions about "this attack" and some implication that "this attack" can be any of several attacks in a attack routine if the first strike misses.
So:
1) it is possible to deliver a held charge with the weapon?
2) if it is possible, you get the critical multiplier if you score a critical?
There is some Dev post about this? or I am missing some nuance as English isn't my first language?
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On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
I emphasized the important parts.
Once a touch spell is cast, a caster is considered to be holding a charge. This terminology is used from the moment the spell is cast until discharged, including the initial round.
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I suspect that you are missing what is my actual question. I will try to make my doubt clearer.
Round 1, I cast the spell and use spellstrike. No problem, any of my weapon attacks can deliver it.
Round 2, I am holding the charge:
I can deliver the touch spell with a touch attack - no loss of options here
I can deliver the spell with a unarmed strike or a natural attack - no loss of function here
I can deliver the spell with my weapon? Spellstrike say "whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of touch". Key word is "cast", in round 2 the magus isn't casting a spell.
So the spellstrike ability don't say that I can deliver the spell in the following round.
As no other class can deliver a spell through a weapon, AFAIK, there is no loss of function in a magus not being capable to deliver a held charge with a weapon.
To paraphrase it say that when the magus cast a spell with a range of touch he can channel it through his weapon.
I don't see anything about using spellstrike with a held charge1) it is possible to deliver a held charge with the weapon?
"At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."
A) Did you cast a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list?
B) If so, you can deliver that spell through a weapon.
If you cast Shocking Grasp, then hold the charge, A) is still true, which means B) is also still true.
The second sentence of Spellstrike is there to make it absolutely clear that you can also do this with the free attack the spell grants you on the turn in which it was cast. It's spelled out that way because the normal rules for delivering at touch spell with a non-touch are part of Holding the Charge, a wizard can't use a natural weapon to deliver on the round in which he cast it, only subsequent rounds. A magus can use his sword for both.
2) if it is possible, you get the critical multiplier if you score a critical?
"This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier."
When it says "This attack" it's referring to the melee attack from sentence 1.
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The doubt is if "cast" is different from "held a charge".
As written it can be read as "in the round in which a magus spend a action casting as spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list ... ecc."
I prefer your reading of the ability and I think that it is RAI, but RAW .. no so sure.
To your question
"A) Did you cast a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list?"
the answer can be:
No, he is holding a charge from last round.
To your question
"A) Did you cast a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list?"
the answer can be:
No, he is holding a charge from last round.
Spellstrike is enabled at the time of casting. When he casts the spell, if it meets the prerequisites (touch, magus spell list), then the ability activates, which allows him to deliver that spell with a weapon.
Look at the Holding the Charge rules. What happens when you touch something? The spell discharges. It's still a spell, and you're delivering it.
There's no timing issue at all. If Spellstrike can only be used while casting a spell, then it can never be used, because you don't make the melee touch attack as part of casting the spell (like you do with the ranged touch attack from a ray spell, for example), it's a completely separate action that can be taken any time during that turn.
Diego, your question is certainly worthwhile. The word "whenever" in "whenever a magus casts a spell with..." could be read such that it implies the time constraint you are thinking of.
I think Grick's answer is correct. Under normal circumstances, whenever you cast a touch spell there are some normal ways to deliver it. Spellstrike gives the magus the option to deliver the spell through a weapon attack.
As for spells that supply multiple touch attacks (like Chill Touch), I prefer to think of the extra attacks as behaving just like charges from a touch spell. These touch attacks were created by a spell with a range of touch, so it seems odd to treat these attacks any differently.