Musket Master, double-barrel muskets, & Rapid Reloading

[Kargush]

2 questions in one go.

1: Do the Musket Master's free Rapid Reload (musket) feat also cover double-barrel muskets, axe muskets and hammer muskets?

2: I see that DB muskets have a listed range of 10 feet, vs the 40 feet of regular muskets. DB pistols do not lose range in this fashion, it is intentional or just a typo? And if it's a typo, is there an errata or something available?

[andersen]

1. you must take rapid reload for double musket (axe musket, etc.), this is different then the rapid reload for the single-barreled musket that you start with.

2. the lower range seems a typo, though to the best of my knowledge it hasnt been errate'd yet...

[pika626]

1. I'm also curious about this. The Musket master ability states that you get Rapid Reload (musketS) Emphasis on the "s" there as it makes it plural. Does that mean you have it for ALL types of muskets? Or just the single barrel?

2. This is definitely a typo. There's no reason that adding a second barrel quarters your range. In my current game, we came across this problem as well. We figured the range was supposed to be dropped by 10ft to a 30ft range instead of dropping all the way down to 10ft and pretty much making a non-range range weapon. We determined that, like the axe-musket which has the added weight of an axe on it that messes with the range, the double barrel musket has the same issue. Hopefully there will be an official ruling or errata soon.

[henwy]

Was this ever determined for certain?

[DonDuckie]

If it says "muskets" then it's just the specific weapon called musket, otherwise it would say two-handed firearms.

If the 10 ft is a typo, then it was repeated in ultimate equipment(could be sloppy copy-paste). But I think they might be serious about that one. Even though I houserule it to 40 ft.

[DonDuckie]

Update - just saw this

FAQ for double-barreled musket

So the range increment is 40ft.

[Phosphorus]

FAQ wrote:

Halfling, Warslinger: What kind of slings does the this reload ability work with?

The warslinger ability says, "Halflings with this racial trait can reload a sling as a free action." It doesn't say "any type of sling" or "all slings," just "a sling." The ability only affects standard slings, not halfling sling staffs or any other kind of sling.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/19/13

PRD wrote:

Rapid Reloader: At 1st level, a musket master gains Rapid Reload (muskets) as a bonus feat.

Rapid Reload (Combat)

Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, heavy) or a single type of one-handed or two-handed firearm that you are proficient with. You can reload such a weapon quickly.

Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm).

Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.

If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.

Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, a standard action to reload a one-handed firearm, or a full-round action to load a heavy crossbow or a two-handed firearm.

Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow or a new type of firearm.

The halfling trait says "a sling", singular.

However, the rapid reloader says "muskets", plural.

As written, I think this refers to musket, axe musket axe, warhammer musket & double barreled musket. It wouldn't apply to other two handed firearms, such as the blunderbuss, so it doesn't say two-handed firearms.

However, you can't take as a feat rapid reload (muskets), as you have to pick which type of firearm...so it could just be a typo, and be meant to say simply Rapid Reload (musket), and apply to just the musket.

FAQ'd

[SCPRedMage]

Phosphorus wrote:

The halfling trait says "a sling", singular.

However, the rapid reloader says "muskets", plural.

As written, I think this refers to musket, axe musket axe, warhammer musket & double barreled musket. It wouldn't apply to other two handed firearms, such as the blunderbuss, so it doesn't say two-handed firearms.

However, you can't take as a feat...

I disagree. If they intended for it to work with more than one specific type of firearm, they would have worded it similarly to the Musket Training class feature.

Musket Training wrote:

Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a two-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a musket master never misfires with a two-handed firearm. This replaces firearm training 1, 2, 3, and 4.

If they wanted it to cover multiple weapons, they would have given Musket Masters Rapid Reload (two-handed firearms), not Rapid Reload (muskets).

[TGMaxMaxer]

Umm... how about this. Does anyone want to argue that Rapid Reload Heavy Crossbow would also apply to a Heavy Repeating Crossbow or the Double Crossbow?

Because if you want to argue that you should get it with all different types of muskets with that one bonus feat, then I want it for all different types of Crossbows as well. If that seems just silly to you, then it has to go both ways.

Bolding Mine:

UC Rapid Reload Feat wrote:

Rapid Reload (Combat)

Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, heavy) or a single type of one-handed or two-handed firearm that you are proficient with. You can reload such a weapon quickly.

Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm).

Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.

If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.

Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, a standard action to reload a one-handed firearm, or a full-round action to load a heavy crossbow or a two-handed firearm.

Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow or a new type of firearm.

You can get Rapid Reload with all of the different types of muskets, but it takes a new feat for each type. Rapid Reload(Muskets) doesn't apply to Double barreled Muskets or Axe Muskets any more than Rapid Reload(Heavy Crossbow) applies to Repeating Heavy Crossbows and Minotaur Double Crossbows.

[SCPRedMage]

Bonus feats work differently than selecting the feat the old fashioned way; if it says it applies to a group, it applies to the group, regardless of whether the feat is only supposed to apply to a single weapon.

That said, simply because "muskets" is plural is not sufficient reason to interpret it to mean "muskets" as a category, rather than "muskets" as a kind of weapon that is not unique (ie, there's more than one person out there running around with a musket).

[Mike Bramnik]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Phosphorus wrote:

The halfling trait says "a sling", singular.

However, the rapid reloader says "muskets", plural.

As written, I think this refers to musket, axe musket axe, warhammer musket & double barreled musket. It wouldn't apply to other two handed firearms, such as the blunderbuss, so it doesn't say two-handed firearms.

However, you can't take as a feat...

I disagree. If they intended for it to work with more than one specific type of firearm, they would have worded it similarly to the Musket Training class feature.

Musket Training wrote:

Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a two-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a musket master never misfires with a two-handed firearm. This replaces firearm training 1, 2, 3, and 4.

If they wanted it to cover multiple weapons, they would have given Musket Masters Rapid Reload (two-handed firearms), not Rapid Reload (muskets).

I wouldn't expect a Musket Master to be as good with a Blunderbuss as he/she would be with a Musket. That there are non-musket two-handed firearms might be why that language was used, but I'd also like to find out which is correct.

Until something official comes out, I'm going to operate in PFS as if this only means regular muskets, though.

[Issac Daneil]

The Musket Axe in particular says that it can be used as a Musket, or a Battle Axe, so my ruling is that it would work with Rapid Reload (Musket).

[Gilarius]

Technically, RAW the free musket master feat only applies to normal muskets, however RAI is unclear. Ask your GM how he/she wants it to work.

You'll find lots of people on this forum arguing this case either way, but the person's opinion that matters in your game is your GM.

[Nefreet]

It's actually been cleared up in the most recent printing of Ultimate Combat.

Before, Musket Masters got "Rapid Reload (Muskets)".

Now, they only get "Rapid Reload (Musket)".

And Rapid Reload only applies to one weapon at a time. Despite how similar an Axe Musket and a Musket are, they are different weapons, and would require a different feat to rapidly reload each of them.