Departing from Canon

[Kazred]

Hello everyone -- first time poster and still new to Pathfinder. Please forgive me if this topic has been covered before.

I never used published settings in the old days, but I really like the approach Paizo took with the ISWG. It's perfect really, since I don't have the time to work from scratch like I used to. I'm planning to start a new campaign in Oppara and slowly expand through Taldor and into nearby nations. Galt and Qadira, in particular, seem ripe for the kind of intrigue-heavy game I want to run.

Then there's Andoran. I'm sure there are plenty of people who love Andoran as-is, but the real-world analogue is way too over-the-top for my taste. Rather than ignoring the entire western border, I decided to tweak Andoran to suit my campaign. Here's what I'm wondering:

If I make significant changes to one country, will that make it difficult to run APs later on(assuming they're set elsewhere)? I'm not planning to right away, but I'd like to keep the option open. How far can I bend canon before it breaks?

For those GMs who have done something similar, what changes did you make (Andoran or otherwise)?

[Lucent]

Funny you should bring this up, I have a highly modified version of Andoran in my home Pathfinder campaign (which is set 30 years into the future following the events of Council of Thieves, which ended with the surprising PC-led revolution against the house of Thrune).

Andoran in my campaign has been at war with Cheliax (siding with the Revolutionaries) for thirty years. They've made important trade agreements with Alkenstar for firearms and an ongoing arms-race between Cheliax and Andoran for clockwork technology on the battlefield has turned much of the capital of Almas into factories and foundries. The city has expanded, but the poor are forced to live in cramped and ever-worsening conditions.

You can check out the timeline for some of the changes I've done here and what's going on with the city of Almas here.

I've found no issue running Adventure Paths, either. Some have been set in the past during the 30-year timeskip, others have been shifted 30 years ahead by changing names and just making a few tweaks here and there to established NPCs and organizations.

Some very time-specific APs (like Reign of Winter) will be set during their appropriate year. But I'm planning on running a mash-up of Curse of the Crimson Throne/Second Darkness set 30 years later on down the line.

It's a little more book-keeping, but if you enjoy tinkering with an established setting it can be really worthwhile.

[Timothy Hanson]

Most likely not. It might make it difficult to run one if they make an Andoran AP, but so far most of the APs would be pretty easy to run as is. I can not think of one off the top of my head that would need changing.

Also all the APs start at level 1 so there is no need to keep the world consistent with anything you have done in the past. I do not think any of the games I have run have taken place on the same game world, though I do borrow things from previous games for convenience of familiarity.

[Mirona]

You can change whatever you want, when you run multiple AP in the same world, you're sure to have to do adjustment.

Here some exemple(Spoiler):

(First AP we played)Rise of the runelord:
- One of my player married Ameiko.
- Magnimar was attacked by Giant. Near the end of the AP (my players were lazy...I had to motivate them a little)
- Shalelu was almost killed during the Sandpoint Raid
- Then he became the new Runelord of Greed.

(2nd AP we played) Second Darkness:
-Since Shalelu was almost killed, switched for her cousin.

(3rd AP we played) Curse of the Crimson Throne:
- The queen won

(4th AP we played)Jade Regeant:
- Changed Ameiko to her sister.
- Changed Shalelu with an ancient PC

(Playing now) Shattered Star:
- Magnimar is now damaged. Had to change some part of the main quest.
- The lady's light is now in control of the resistance (instead of the Gray Maidens)

My varisa changed a lot because of some event. Do your changes, but keep track of them!

[Mark Moreland]

You shouldn't have too much trouble if you make changes, just as long as you keep your own internal consistency intact. So far, we haven't done any APs in Andoran, and you could easily rename it, downplay certain elements of it, or move other elements from it (like the Eagle Knights) to completely different places. And if your players were cool with "resetting" the continuity in your campaign should you start a new one down the road (as APs are designed to start at 1st level anyway), you could just use the published Andoran at a later date. But changing continuity in your campaign is what makes it your campaign instead of our published campaign. So have fun with it!

[proftobe]

Since most of them start in Varissia its not a problem._

[Drejk]

If you dare to stray away from the canon by a width of a hair Paizo will send super secret commando of ninja raptors lead by a T-Rex Cleric of Asmodeus to eat your rulebooks and throw away your dice!

Spoiler:

They won't. They are keeping them hidden in the warehouse caves for more important emergencies, like players leaving Pathfinder for FATAL. :P

Welcome to the madhou... er, Paizo messageboard.

[Liz Courts]

Ninja raptors? Man, I gotta get me one of those.

[Kazred]

Thanks for the responses (and for the links Lucent).

I'm not looking to create my own nation from scratch really -- I'm actually keeping all the places and people. I'm just changing things about the revolution and the events that followed -- I guess you could call it an alternate history (I miss Fringe).

For those that are interested, here's what I'm thinking: The main thing I don't like about Andoran is that they abolished the nobility *after* the Red Revolution in Galt. In the real world, the French Revolution followed the American Revolution. The Reign of Terror scared the crap out of everyone -- even in America, where they passed the decidedly undemocratic Alien & Sedition Act. Had the order of events been reversed, it's not hard to imagine the American Revolution looking very different, or not happening at all.

In my version of Andoran, the aristocracy was already frightened of another Galt when the war against Cheliax broke out. As soon as it became clear that the revolution was for real, they switched sides. Taldor (where the campaign is centered) quietly supported the revolution, since it was an opportunity to expand their sphere of influence at the expense of Cheliax. The Empire already experienced the influx of refugees from Galt on their northern border, so they also had an interest in moderating the politics of the revolution.

As a result, this Andoran is more of a nominal Republic than a Democracy. Political power remains in the hands of the elite, but the personal freedoms enjoyed by the common people have been expanded. The mythology of the revolution (Lady Liberty etc.) never took root, because it made the new rulers nervous. Behind the scenes, Taldor exerts far more influence than anyone is willing to acknowledge. Supporting the new nation has been costly for the Empire though, which has emboldened the enemies of the Grand Prince.

There are a lot of ways I could go with this -- At some point, Taldor will overreach itself and try to annex Andoran. Qadira may take advantage of the situation and invade. A Napoleon-like figure will arise in Galt with ambitions of reuniting the Empire. Karthis and Eutropia are both waiting for their opportunity to sieze power as well. I'm going to let the players influence the direction of events, but in general I'm going for a very Game of Thrones sort of campaign.

[Drejk]

Qadira could secretly sponsor anti-Taldoran sentiments in Andoran.

Anti-Cheliax faction could struggle with anti-Taldoran - safety of Andora demands benign neutrality with at least one of the major neighbors.

Anti-Cheliax faction can sponsor anti-Cheliax sentiments in Isger trying to form a friendly state on one border, possibly a vassal state.

Isger may be divided on its stance towards Andoran. On one hand open war between Cheliax and Andoran will be fought near Isger border and may spill into Isger itself hurting the state. On the other hand, the war could allow Isger to anex parts of Andorean if Cheliax gains upper hand... Or parts of Cheliax if Andorean wins. At the same time, Cheliax could occupy Isger while preparing to strike against Andoran.

Five Kings Mountains, while officially neutral may secretly support Andoran with money, resources, weapons and possibly mercenaries ("exiles") as Andoran seems to be better neighbour to them than devil-worshipping Cheliax.

Rahadoum may support Andoran to a certain degree hoping to influence ideas of political liberty with notions of spiritual liberty from meddling of the gods... Also, anything that weakens Cheliax is good for Rahadoum because gives Rahadoum chance to wrest control over that straits between Arcadian Ocean and Inner Sea from Cheliax.

Both Absalom and Osirion could have a very ambivalent stance toward Andoran. Both could benefit from weakening of Cheliax and its control over sea trade in western Inner Sea. Absalom could also benefit from weakening of Taldor. At the same time, as far as I remember both nations benefit from slavery, especially Osirion and Andoran is their competitor for trade dominance over eastern Inner Sea.

[Drejk]

Also, Katapesh might not be especially interested in Cheliax or Talador succeeding in anexation of Andoran but it would be certainly pleased by weakening of Andoran anti-slavery stance, either through ideological changes, or through political, military or economical weakness. Jalmeray possibly as well.

However, manipulating Andoran war against slavery could be used to manipulate slave prices in the Inner Sea region, so I could see more complex plot than just screwing Andoran.

[Kazred]

All good things to think about. I'm not sure how far afield my players are going to wander, but I should be ready for anything. I don't like railroading them in any particular direction.

I'm beginning to realize that the world is deliberately designed to be modular to prevent the exact problem I was worried about.

[Drejk]

Oh, yes, as far as I know it was deliberate choice of the designers to make it modular. I think that James Jacobs mentioned that a few times.

[Drejk]

A few more thoughts:

I doubt Druma wouldn't care much about peace in Andoran. After all war (somewhere else) is potential for business. However, they certainly would be interested in Isger minimal involvement in such war, as, judging from the map, mountain pass to northern Isger is Druma's fastest way to southern part of the continent and Garund, other ways being extremely long and going through dangerous regions.

Molthune is far away and mountains prevent its expansion south. No interests whatsoever, maybe except sending military observers to keep note of potential progress in military tactics and armament.

Nirmathas, Lastwall and Mendev have their own concerns but might be willing to provide some very-very limited aid to keep one of the (nominally) good guys alive. They are to far to provide significant help, however. Similarly, a small number of volunteers could arrive from River Kingdoms to help Anodran fight the slavers of Cheliax. Kyoning would be probably too stifled by its internal affairs and political conservatism of elder elves to provide significant aid but a bunch of young elves could decide to help.