...taking Craft feats is roughly equivalent to a +1 bonus across the board due to the price scaling. This has already been shown in several threads. Crafting is hardly "a joke."
And this was actually shown to be totally erroneous as soon as you start doing basic math.
This is still patently wrong. The common argument about the "just +1 to everything" completely ignores how crafters most commonly specialize into getting their most important attributes elevated as their first order of business.
Magic item creation should provide an in game benefit for the PC which invests in it, but that benefit should not be such that the PC can wildly violate wealth by level guidelines.
I think this one will require some sort of consensus on whether or not the bonuses provided from crafted gear counting at crafting cost for WBL end up being roughly equivalent to other feats. I know Ravingdork mentioned this, though I don't think this thread hasn't really gone into the math for it.
Let's change that, shall we? Let's actually have something we can look at and play with, mechanically, mathematically.
For better or worse, I've decided to post two, high level, example spellcasting characters, one of which who relied heavily on Craft Wondrous Items throughout his career, and another who didn't. These characters are meant to represent the cornerstone of some people's arguments, that my assertion is wholly inaccurate in no small part due to single ability score dependency and the ability to focus on one area.
So, without further ado:
Sela Kurn, 15th-level master abjurer (craft wondrous item) - WBL Breakdown
Sela Kurn, 15th-level master abjurer (no craft variant) - WBL Breakdown
I sincerely hope that it will show that the differences are relatively mild. Craft Wondrous Items is a powerful feat, no doubt, but it is hardly broken or game altering.
Please discuss.
I'm confused can you break down your AC/armor bonuses.
Crafter Sela says AC 30 (+8 Armor, 4 Deflect, 4 Dex, 4 NA)
+8 Bracers of armor
But non-crafter Sela says AC 30 (+9 Armor, 4 Deflect, 4 Dex, 3 NA)
+6 Bracers of armor
Why is Non-Sela have better armor bonuses?
Yet Sela say us +6 Bracers of armor in his gear?
I think you calculated wrong.
Sela v2 is wearing a +5 mithral shirt. This is reflected in the breakdown, but I forgot to write it in on the character sheet. It's fixed now.
Here's a brief summary of the differences:
cloak of resistance +5 / cloak of resistance +4
headband of vast intelligence +6 / headband of vast intelligence +4
amulet of natural armor +4 / amulet of natural armor +3
bracers of armor +8 / +5 mithral shirt
staff of the master (30,000) / more scrolls (2,000)
The problem I have with crafting feats is that they're of such variable value. More than in most aspects of the game, every GM runs wealth, magic item availability, and downtime availability differently. Also, since custom magic items may or may not be available, and may or may not require the PC to craft the item personally (rather than hiring or commissioning a crafter) that's another layer of unpredictability.
It's also hard to calculate the party-wide value of item creation in a partyless vacuum. The last time I played a mage with crafting feats, I crafted all of the magic items for my entire party, making the feats incredibly powerful in a measure of power-vs-world, but a significant negative in any measure of power within the party. (I had 3 less feats than everyone else, yet they benefited as much as I.)
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bracers of armor +8 / +5 mithral shirt
I'm confused. Why would you give the crafter inferior/costlier armor? 32000 gp/AC +8 vs. 26100 gp AC +9, I think? (And it gets worse for the crafter if you add armor special abilities in the future.)
If nothing else, give the crafter the same +5 mithral chain shirt as the non-crafter, and let him spend 5900 gp, I dunno, stacking more stuff on his cloak of resistance or on the armor itself or on a +2 Con belt and so on and so on?
It's also hard to calculate the party-wide value of item creation in a partyless vacuum.
This is the issue in my group. If the crafter was just making stuff for herself, I'd be okay with it, I think. (Especially at my house-ruled 70 percent of cost.) But she's not ... she's making stuff for everyone else, too.
So not only do they get more stuff, they get customized stuff, and it really, really makes it too good.
I've simply adjusted by giving them less gold, as I warned I would if crafting were abused. So now they still get customized stuff -- which in itself is very near worth a feat -- but they're staying at WBL guidelines, which otherwise they'd be way ahead on.
I'm confused. Why would you give the crafter inferior/costlier armor? 32000 gp/AC +8 vs. 26100 gp AC +9, I think?
Arcane spell failure is the chief concern of wearing armor. I could go with a 0% ASF armor choice, but then the AC bonus goes down.
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One of the many problems is this.
What ever someone buys at market price the crafter can make at half price and turn around and make something different, but price equivalent, and walk away with two items for the price of one.
On top of that, he is still entitled a share of treasure and items that are found.
What ever someone buys at market price the crafter can make at half price and turn around and make something different, but price equivalent, and walk away with two items for the price of one.
The PCs sell items at 50% of the listed price. Which, not coincidentally, is the same as the cost to craft an item.
What ever someone buys at market price the crafter can make at half price and turn around and make something different, but price equivalent, and walk away with two items for the price of one.The PCs sell items at 50% of the listed price. Which, not coincidentally, is the same as the cost to craft an item.
At least half depending upon the item, if the crafter has buy a MW item, then he is losing half the cost of that item once he enchants it and goes to sell it.
Adding two more posts from the last thread that I think are extremely relevant to this topic that didn't get any real discussion previously.
Careful everyone. It's this kind of talk that got us 4E in the first place.
Also, taking Craft feats is roughly equivalent to a +1 bonus across the board due to the price scaling. This has already been shown in several threads. Crafting is hardly "a joke."
And this was actually shown to be totally erroneous as soon as you start doing basic math.
It actually works out as +2 to +5, CUMULATIVE, depending on what is being addressed. Very easy test...take a given amount of money, spend it on item of your choice. Then either double it or halve it, and you get the effect without Crafting.
Let's use 25k Gp.
Weapon? 25k buys a +3 Weapon. If you are a crafter, it buys you a +5 Weapon...or close to 3 +3 weapons. That's +2...or a lot of +3 weapons.Armor and Shield. This buys you Armor+4 and Shield +3. If you are a crafter, it buys you +5 in each. That's +3.
Cloak of Resistance. 25k buys you +5. If you are a crafter, it buys you that, and your Amulet of Nat AC+5. That's +5.
Stat buffs? 25k buys you a +4 to one stat. If you are a crafter, it buys you +4 to THREE stats. You get Str, I'll add Dex and Con, too, tyvm.
It buys you two wands of CLW, instead of one. It buys you twice as much condition removal via scrolls. Removal of crippling debuffs, and/or the application of strategic targeted buffs (like death ward) can be more important then 'all on' buffs.
Someone with crafting can easily be +5 ahead on AC for their level, +3 to hit and damage, +3 on saves, etc...and all thsoe buffs stack with buff spells.
It's the cumulative power of Crafting feats that is telling, not just for one item or category.
That would be one approach, yes. Though I'd argue that specializing in one specific stat at the expense of others isn't really a fair comparison. It's definitely something to be considered, but I think it's already pretty well accepted that this is a game where you can make sacrifices in other areas to maximize another.
We should also look at what happens when you spread that 25k gp around to all of the big six. (Currently, I have no idea how this will actually end up -- it may or may not support Ravingdork's assertion. Let's find out, shall we?) Based on a quick search, it looks like the big six is most commonly defined as weapon, armor, cloak of resistance, stat belt/headband, ring of protection, and amulet of natural armor.
Weapon: +1 2000, +2 8000, +3 18000
Armor: +1 1000, +2 4000, +3 9000
Cloak: +1 1000, +2 4000, +3 9000
Stats: +2 4000, +4 16000
Ring: +1 2000, +2 8000, +3 18000
Amulet: +1 2000, +2 8000, +3 18000We can effectively get +2 Armor, Cloak, and Stats, then +1 Weapon, Ring, and Amulet for 18000. We can bump the Weapon, Ring, OR Amulet up to +2 for a total of 24000 gp. That's close enough to our 25000 limit.
For the crafter, we get double the effective money. That gives us +3 Armor and Cloak, +2 Stats to two stats, +2 Weapon, Ring, and Amulet for an effective 50000 gp.
So, net difference between the two is +2 to one stat, and +1 to Armor, Cloak, Weapon, Ring, and Amulet. Ignoring that this is spread across three feats (Craft Magical Arms and Armor, Forge Ring, and Craft Wondrous Item) and requires a caster level of 9 (as opposed to 6) to meet the requirements for the Armor and Cloak, this pretty much matches up with Ravingdork's assertion exactly.
Overall, I'm pretty happy with this balance of crafting giving the choice of a +1 all around, or letting you specialize into 2 stats, rather than just 1.
Summary:
Aelryinth argues that it's inaccurate to say that crafting feats are equivalent to a +1 all the way around, because you can end up with a larger bonus when focused in a single stat.I contend that when you assume investing in magic items in such a way as to stay well rounded, a +1 all around seems right on the money, and comes with additional drawbacks (craft time vs instant purchase, higher caster level required to craft better items, multiple feats to craft all of The Big Six). Making tradeoffs to specialize in one stat at the expense of another is not a sign of a broken system.