http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/brew-fleshcrafting-poison -item-creation
I'm not really understanding part of this feat. What monster abilities qualify for fleshcrafting? Ex? Su? Sp? Do traits (construct, undead) count? Movement modes (burrow, swim)? Senses (blind sense, tremor-sense)? What counts as an 'ability'?
Also, for setting the caster level, by my reading, the only thing it would really effect would be for dispel checks against the fleshcrafted effect?
For temporary fleshcraft poisons, what determines the duration?
The concept seems really interesting, but the wording seems vague, and a search of the forums didn't yield an answer.
Thank you for your time.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/brew-fleshcrafting-poison -item-creation
I'm not really understanding part of this feat. What monster abilities qualify for fleshcrafting? Ex? Su? Sp? Do traits (construct, undead) count? Movement modes (burrow, swim)? Senses (blind sense, tremor-sense)? What counts as an 'ability'?
Also, for setting the caster level, by my reading, the only thing it would really effect would be for dispel checks against the fleshcrafted effect?
For temporary fleshcraft poisons, what determines the duration?
The concept seems really interesting, but the wording seems vague, and a search of the forums didn't yield an answer.
Thank you for your time.
From the quick read through I'd say traits wouldn't be 'available' it seems to be geared more to the 'the creature has this single ability which I think is cool and would like to mimic'. Racial traits are usually a bundle deal.
Though honestly you are pretty much in GM fiat territory regardless so, it really comes down to what they say.
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I think more details might be in the printed source of this feat - as is it sounds too vague to use.
I'd probably interpret it to grant any ability you can get through Beast Shape, Elemental Body, Undead Anatomy, or similar polymorph spells. This would include movement modes, special senses, pounce, web, poison, etc, but not creature types. Might grant abilities not found in those spells, but this would be through GM fiat. CL would determine which spells you'd get to pick abilities off of.
Ok, so I just took a look at the book this feat comes from, and it lists about 7 specific fleshcrafts. It also lists them as having XP costs as well as requiring more ranks in craft(alchemy), which I'm guessing was errata'd, as it isn't included in the SRD description of the feat.
Here's the 64,000 dollar question though: why list the abilities as individual fleshcrafts and include the rules for generating your own ones in the feat description? Wouldn't it just list something along the lines of 'A player with this feat can make the listed fleshcrafts' (like craft magic arms and armor or craft wondrous item) instead of detailing a formula (caster level * challenge rating * 50)? To me that kind of seems like you are supposed to be allowed to determine your own fleshcrafts, and the ones listed are suggestions. This also seems to be supported in the flavor text of the feat itself:
In addition to the several fleshcrafting procedures listed, it’s encouraged in drow society for characters experienced with fleshcrafting to constantly experiment and invent new ways of twisting flesh. The following feat is required to successfully brew a fleshcrafting potion.
This might be borderline RAI vs RAW, but I think this could use some clarification. Unlike magic items, the reason you wouldn't see custom magic items in most games is because of this segment here:
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.
I'm not seeing anything that directly calling the fleshcrafts as magic items. They use similar rules (use body slots that line up with magic item body slots, activate the potion like any other magic item), but it isn't specifically stating that it is or isn't.
I also took a look at Inscribe Magical Tattoo, which DOES create the equivalent of a magic item on the body and explicitly states that it uses the standard magic item creation rules, including the part about custom magic items.
Is it powerful if allowed to create custom fleshcrafts using the formula presented in the feat? Yes. We don't need to discuss how 'OH LORD NOT IN MY GAME' we all feel about this. I'm trying to see if it is allowed by the rules as written.
Similar arguments of 'That is not how its INTENDED to work' or 'No DM would ever allow this' are basically house rules, and I really want to discuss the rule as written.
Asking for RAW on a rule set not of PFRPG (3.5 is where this comes from) origin here probably isn't going to get you much. Using material from 3.5 is pretty much the definition of get GM permission and ask them how they want to run it. Many of the things this allows you to do were taken away from spells like polymorph or at best restricted to certain abilities when the conversion was made.
Discussing how these rules work when there was a pretty widespread 'nerf-ing' of how to gain things this provides in the new rules is pretty much an academic exercise as this ability wasn't designed for the new rules. It is 'compatible' like all other 3.5 material but you should probably go to the Adventure Path forum and as there how people have been running it in the new rule set. This forum is unfortunately the wrong place for that rule set.
Asking for RAW on a rule set not of PFRPG (3.5 is where this comes from) origin here probably isn't going to get you much. Using material from 3.5 is pretty much the definition of get GM permission and ask them how they want to run it. Many of the things this allows you to do were taken away from spells like polymorph or at best restricted to certain abilities when the conversion was made.
Discussing how these rules work when there was a pretty widespread 'nerf-ing' of how to gain things this provides in the new rules is pretty much an academic exercise as this ability wasn't designed for the new rules. It is 'compatible' like all other 3.5 material but you should probably go to the Adventure Path forum and as there how people have been running it in the new rule set. This forum is unfortunately the wrong place for that rule set.
Skylancer4, unless I'm mistaken, the rule in question (while it may exist in 3.5, I don't have the old books on me at the moment) is actually coming directly from the pathfinder system reference document, located here: Brew Fleshcrafting Poison.
I'd also checked the adventure path that is the source of it (visible at the bottom of the feat page on the PFSRD):
Section 15: Copyright Notice
Pathfinder 16: Endless Night. Copyright 2008, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: F. Wesley Schneider.
I do believe the rules I'm questioning are in fact in the pathfinder source. The comments I made earlier about the XP cost and the higher ranks needed in craft(alchemy) to qualify are directly from the adventure path book, page 63.
I've been browsing through the item creation rules and rules relating to other item creation feats for more information on how this feat is supposed to act in the pathfinder systems rules as written, but I'm still not finding much that suggests that you can only use this feat for the printed fleshcrafts presented next to the feat on page 63 of the adventure path.
I do see now that it is a 'conversion' rule, but the last line here suggests that it is still compatible:
Pathfinder Accessory - Conversion
This material is from a Paizo Pathfinder product line other than the "Roleplaying Game" that was released prior to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game final rules system. The content has been converted to be compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.
It does mention that it was converted, but that it IS still compatible.
The fact that its listed on the SRD the way it is suggests to me that it is good to go for play with the pathfinder system, unlike other material that isn't listed on the SRD that you might need to refer to the conversion guide to use. To say that content on the SRD is not compatible with pathfinder to me seems like saying that anything on the SRD could be thrown out of the pathfinder system, as most/all of the system is an update from 3.5 material.
My downloads are showing the CRB sometime in 2009. The Pathfinder 'brand' was around before the actual PFRPG, several of the adventure paths and campaign books fall during that time. I might not have bought the PDF immediately when it came out, but fairly certain a full year didn't pass.
Again, compatibility with previous 3.5 material and going through some rough conversion in no way makes these rules 'solid' PFRPG rules. And as I explained before they were around prior to the current rules set and being included with the '3.5 backwards compatibility' option still leaves a lot of wiggle room as to how they should work now.
Ok, so now I understand the feat in the ap was actually written under 3.5 rules, that explains the exp cost for crafting in the old ap feat description. Thank you.
Here's what bothers me with your explanation of why the feat can't be used:
Again, compatibility with previous 3.5 material and going through some rough conversion in no way makes these rules 'solid' PFRPG rules. And as I explained before they were around prior to the current rules set and being included with the '3.5 backwards compatibility' option still leaves a lot of wiggle room as to how they should work now.
It's not a rough conversion I'm doing. The update for the fleshcrafting feat I mentioned in previous posts is directly from the pfsrd. I'm not seeing anything that indicates that the feat update was third party or fan content. Unless I'm missing something, the only thing that makes it any different from anything else in pathfinder is that the 3.5 source is also a piazo product.
To me, it seems like allowing fleshcrafting from the pfsrd only as gm fiat or homebrew would be the same as using power attack from the pfsrd as gm fiat or homebrew over the 3.5 version of the feat. They both have posted updates, the only difference is that power attack came from a wotc book, and fleshcrafting came from piazo. If you don't accept fleshcrafting is a valid (though poorly worded) feat just because of that, you are basically saying nothing from pathfinder can be used to play pathfinder, because pathfinder is an update of 3.5.
So, back on topic. I see you can use the feat to permanently gain a monsters abilities, but there is nothing showing how the duration of potions should work. Is it safe to say they last for one round? Or should we assume potions of temporary abilities simply don't work as there are no rules (that I can find) to support them?
Not sure if you aren't getting the point or ignoring it. I'm not saying don't use it because it is some 3PP or anything regarding the publisher.
I'm saying not to use it because it was based on design choices that no longer exist/stand anymore in the new rule set, if it is allowed under the PFS rule set I'd see asking about it here but I don't think it is. This 'new' rules forum isn't the place to be asking for rules on something that is from the previous rule set unless it has been reprinted (in your case of the feat power attack). That is why I suggested going to the AP forum and asking there. This feat has nothing to do with the current rules unless a GM allows it under the compatible material umbrella. It hasn't been reprinted in a new book, it has only been 'pathfinderized' with the rough rules conversion document. Those two things aren't the same.
Ok, so basically anything in the pathfinder system reference document with the tag 'conversion' isn't really a rule for the pathfinder role playing system? I guess it just bothers me that they went ahead and updated/included it along with all the other rules that are... Um... Actual rules? Maybe I'm being a jerk, but dang it that should really be listed in some PDF conversion companion with the Ap instead of on the pfsrd with other item creation feats. Or at least a note that its not intended for actual play. (Or even better, a more explicit feat description stating it only works for the example fleshcrafts, or more detailed rules on creating new ones, but that's neither here nor there.)
Anyway, thanks for helping with this one sky, you're a real bro.
Well now I just feel silly. Thanks guys.