Race: no, Magic item: yes(armor no, unless its Wild), as far as i know.
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IIRC polymorph effects replace natural armor score of a creature with natural armor score of a new shape, thus negating the racial natural armor. However, items and spells usually grant enhancement bonus to natural armor. They all would stack with natural armor of a new form. That's why barkskin is one of the druid's favored spells, at least until everyone in the party has amulet of natural armor.
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No, it doesn't replace, instead it says gives a bonus to natural armor.
Hmm, there is difference between polymorph subschool and the polymorph spells text. The generic polymorphs description indeed notes that it grants bonus to natural armor while the spell itself uses notation "+2 natural armor bonus" which is different than increasing existing natural armor. It might require a FAQ.
theishi, I believe they can. I seem to recall some note about applying the "young" template to summoned cats, and if you can do that, why not other templates?
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They wouldn't stack/interact due to the polymorph sub school rules.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
Unless the natural armor bonus is from a constant magical effect RAW wild shape wouldn't make an exception to the general rule from the school.
If you want to turn into a Huge leopard, even though none of that size exist, can you?
RAW is a no, templated creatures are not normally valid options for polymorph without special exceptions (like feats that allow you to take celestial/fiendish forms). Part of the limiting/balancing factor of the polymorph spells are the strict options available at a given range.
And what if I get Natural Armor from another source? Example: Draconic Bloodline, do I keep that Natural Armor bonus and add the NA bonus of a spell like, say, Form of the Dragon I to my total?
'It depends', you'd have to look the ability up and see what the specific spell/ability you were using said and then check what the general school/subschool said on it. Also remember there is no 'polymorph effect' stacking. If you have a polymorph effect ongoing and then become the target of another, in most cases you get to choose to let the first stay in effect or let it fall off and the second effect starts.
In that specific case it would look like another 'no.' Draconic resistances are detailed as EX and would be covered by the above quote and the class abilities. You are leaving your normal form which was enhanced by your bloodline ability and gaining the abilities and bonuses from the Form of the Dragon.
They wouldn't stack/interact due to the polymorph sub school rules.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.Neither of those are supernatural or extra ordinary abilities
Notice the Ex next to serpent's sense and the lack of Ex next to Armored Scales.Armored Scales: Nagaji have a +1 natural armor bonus from their scaly flesh.
Serpent's Sense (Ex) Nagaji receive a +2 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks against reptiles, and a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks.
Hypnotic Gaze (Sp): The nagaji's gaze is so intense it stops others in their tracks. Once per day, it can attempt to hypnotize a single target, as per the spell hypnotism (caster level equal to the nagaji's Hit Dice). The DC of this effect is equal to 11 + the nagaji's Charisma modifier. The effects of the hypnotic gaze only last a single round. This racial trait replaces serpent's sense.
Abilities aren't always listed as EX, SP, SU and you have to read the description of each to determine where they would be placed. Tough scaly skin is most certainly an EX ability as it isn't a SU or SP (it would still operate in a AMF as well). It is also an ability that is dependant on your normal form. This is specifically why it calls out the GM having the final decision.
I feel like I just wrote something similar to this recently...
For the most part, I think natural armor bonuses are unlikely to stick around after polymorphing, because they likely depended on your original form. Even if it did stick around though, 2 natural armor bonuses will not stack with each other. You'll take the higher of either one.
So, with a nagaji having a +1 natural armor bonus, and wildshaping into something with a +4 natural armor bonus, you'll lose the +1. Even if you didn't though, only the +4 would matter, because the +1 is redundant at that point.
On the other hand, if you have something like an amulet of natural armor that is providing a constant +2 enhancement to natural armor then you would have the +1 Nagaji NA go to +3, and the +4 Wildshape NA would go to +6. They still wouldn't stack with each other in any case, but the amulet could provide the enhancement bonus on either one.
At least, I think that's how it works. I could be wrong though.
I feel like I just wrote something similar to this recently...
For the most part, I think natural armor bonuses are unlikely to stick around after polymorphing, because they likely depended on your original form. Even if it did stick around though, 2 natural armor bonuses will not stack with each other. You'll take the higher of either one.
So, with a nagaji having a +1 natural armor bonus, and wildshaping into something with a +4 natural armor bonus, you'll lose the +1. Even if you didn't though, only the +4 would matter, because the +1 is redundant at that point.
On the other hand, if you have something like an amulet of natural armor that is providing a constant +2 enhancement to natural armor then you would have the +1 Nagaji NA go to +3, and the +4 Wildshape NA would go to +6. They still wouldn't stack with each other in any case, but the amulet could provide the enhancement bonus on either one.
At least, I think that's how it works. I could be wrong though.
A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
None of this armor is typed, so they all stack.
Not quite. The armor we're discussing here is typed. They're natural armor bonuses. The reason Improved natural armor would stack is because it's not a natural armor bonus, it's simply improving the one that you already have, such as bumping a +1 up to a +2. (And is, as you said, an untyped bonus to that natural armor.)
When you have 2 different natural armor bonuses, they are both the same type, and they won't stack.
Abilities aren't always listed as EX, SP, SU and you have to read the description of each to determine where they would be placed. Tough scaly skin is most certainly an EX ability as it isn't a SU or SP (it would still operate in a AMF as well). It is also an ability that is dependant on your normal form. This is specifically why it calls out the GM having the final decision.Are you suggesting that it is a typo? Tough skin is not an ability it is an attribute. It is a racial attribute, but so is my +2 Dex. I don't lose my racial +2 dex when shifting do I?
No, I'm suggesting the core rules have been written with certain assumptions that don't apply with all the splat books out currently. I'm suggesting the designers assumed something like that happening with such a wildly varying ability like polymorph and they included in the write up that the GM has final say about what does and doesn't stay in effect. It goes through pains to specify that abilities that are dependant on form don't stay in effect right before saying the GM has final say.
I'm saying that there is an ability that gives you a constant bonus due to your race/base form and you are using another ability that states your form is changing to something else and you are getting another bonus of the same type which explicitly doesn't stack with itself.EDIT: Incidentally there were no player races at issue of the CRB that had a bonus to natural armor as a trait or even option, so understandably there would have been no reason to call this situation out at the time. Regardless FAQ'd.
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A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.As a general rule, if something is untyped, then it stacks. Improved Natural Armor would stack with the Nagi's natural armor as well as with the Dragon's Disciples natural armor. The only question is whether or not polymorph removes the racial natural armor. You are losing your ground venturing into this territory.
How am I losing ground by posting the definition of the (Bonus)Natural Armor verbatim?
You get a minor +1 natural armor bonus from a race trait, you then cast a spell which gives you another better +2 natural armor bonus. They don't stack, they are the same, bonus (natural armor).
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Right, far as I can tell this is a debate over whether the natural armour granted by Beast Shape and other polymorph spells is:
A) A new natural armour (nat AB) bonus, meaning it does not stack with an existing nat AB. (Skylancer and Darkwolf's position)
B) An untyped improvement to your natural armour, meaning it stacks with existing nat AB including racial nat AB. (theishi's position)
theishi, if you are instead arguing that a natural armour bonus is an untyped bonus, you need to review bonus types.
In favor of position A:
Beast Shape states that if gives you a "+2 natural armour bonus." If position B were true, the spell should read "The subject's natural armor bonus increases by +1" as is stated in Improved Natural Armour (which as Darkwolf stated does provide an untyped bonus to the Nat AB).
In favor of position B:
The polymorph description reads:
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.
Here the bonus to your ability scores (which modify your own ability score) is phrased in the same way as the bonus to your natural armour. This may suggest that the nat AB bonus is also supposed to modify rather than replace your existing nat AB (position B).
Personal opinion:
I'm inclined to lean on the wording for Beast Shape (and position A) here rather than the general polymorph rules, but I can see where the other argument is coming from.
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Wait a minute, Dragon Resistances have NOTHING to do with my original form, that's an ability from my class, and it doesn't seem like it's an ability that's dependent on my form, so it should stack with FoTD I's Natural Armor Bonus.
Growing dragon-like scales is not dependent on form?
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Do you think that all natural armour is based on form?
What about natural armour gained from a template - such as a vampire?
It seems to make more sense to me that the vampire's natural armour bonus is related to its undead status rather than to a thickening of the skin.
Does a vampire lose its "vampire" natural armour when it changes shape into a wolf?
Does a vampire druid do so when it wild-shapes?
Richard
An ability/source that grants NA determines the answer to your question.
A vampire has an innate NA from the template, the 'change shape' refers to Beast Shape II. That spell refers to the the polymorph rules. There is no stated exception in the ability stating you keep/apply template bonuses while not in your default form. There is nothing stating you apply the template to the form you change into.
RAW it goes away as there is no specific rule to override the general rules regarding the ability.
If you need to 'make sense' of it, look at it as the vampire taking on a pseudo life like form and losing some of the benefits of their natural form.
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IIUC, the argument is about whether or not NA relates to "form".
AFAICS, this is not rigidly defined.
Do you change form when you become a vampire?
I suppose your teeth might get a bit bigger but I thought you were still, basically, identical to how you were before.
If that was the case, then becoming a vampire is all about gaining some sort of supernatural quality which grants you NA in some sort of non form-related way.
If not, what about DR, ER and effects coming from your undead type like immunity to bleed and darkvision?
(It would be rather amusing if it lost its darkvision since it wouldn't gain blindsense when turning into a Dire Bat (not one of the things you get with beast shape II) meaning that it would be "blind as a bat" in the dark!)
Richard
Vampire is a template, your base creature gains abilities from the template being added as well as a certain set from the creature type changing. However you fluff it your default form changes to compensate.
Polymorph changes your form/physical abilities in such a way that things are lost and others are gained. The rules are fairly particular about what happens but sometimes the end result is odd because of the balancing mechanics of certain situations. Your type doesn't change so you would retain those things gained from that, the template adjusts your physical form in some ways so those things can and would be lost when changing shape via Beast Shape II and the rules from the poly school write up.
For the times when it could be 'iffy' it is up to the DM, but at that point it isn't up to the rule set, it is personal preference and we will hardly ever get across the board agreement on an issue like that.
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RAW says they go away. Go read the universal monster rules where the abilties are defined then consult the polymorph subschool rules (or read the quotes above).
DR is EX or SU, Resistances are EX, Fast Healing is EX.
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It depends on whether an ability is due to "form" or "soul", IMVHO.
A vampire's lack of shadow or reflection must surely be "soul"?
Spider climb must be form.
Vulnerability to sunlight?
If it had DR/adamantine then I would have thought was "form", but DR/good I would have thought was "soul".
ER I guess is "form".
Fast Healing - don't know. Does a vampire in beast form not go gaseous when reduced to 0 hit points?
What do you think?
Richard
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Mechanically the rules make no differentiation between the two so you are back to house rules when dealing with 'soul' and 'form' in your debate.
The rules and situation aren't completely at odds however, your beast form gaseous question for example. When the vampire in beast form hits 0, the specific rule trumps the general rule of the poly subschool, gaseous form occurs.
That's if you don't want to get into the long 'story' which is when the vampire hits 0 it is 'destroyed' and the effect would stop, revert back to its natural form at which point both fast healing and gaseous form would kick back in.
We're pretty much just beating a dead horse at this point. The poly subschool (and spells) contain everything we've been discussing. If in doubt, talk to the GM and they can rule it as they see fit (possibly swaying their decision your favor with a decent argument).
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Mechanically the rules make no definition whatsoever as to what is "form", so we're already house-ruling when we talk about what is and what isn't included.
For example, in order to stop our bat-shaped vampire from bumping into things, we've decided to let him keep his darkvision because he gets that due to "type" rather than form. This idea that "form" doesn't encompass "type" is our own - it isn't anywhere defined. Furthermore, dwarves and orcs also get darkvision by virtue of their "type", alebeit sub-type in this case, which would mean they would keep their darkvision too.
And this flies in the face of the polymorph rules which specifically state that darkvision is one of those things that you lose.
You're right in that we're beating a dead, if not vampiric, horse. Unfortunately when the rules say it's up to the GM they produce a quandary because these effects we've been discussing are too fundamental. The difference it makes to a vampire losing pretty much all of its defensive abilities is immense - no vampire in its right mind would ever polymorph.
As a module writer, I have to stay well away from this, which is frustrating.
Richard
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The main issue is the polymorph school stating specifically that you cannot change shape into a creature with a template (even though it might actually have a template originally). By not giving a clause to maintain an existing template it does reduce a templated creatures abilities when using some form of polymorph effect.
Mechanically the rules make no definition whatsoever as to what is "form", so we're already house-ruling when we talk about what is and what isn't included.
For example, in order to stop our bat-shaped vampire from bumping into things, we've decided to let him keep his darkvision because he gets that due to "type" rather than form. This idea that "form" doesn't encompass "type" is our own - it isn't anywhere defined. Furthermore, dwarves and orcs also get darkvision by virtue of their "type", alebeit sub-type in this case, which would mean they would keep their darkvision too.
And this flies in the face of the polymorph rules which specifically state that darkvision is one of those things that you lose.
You're right in that we're beating a dead, if not vampiric, horse. Unfortunately when the rules say it's up to the GM they produce a quandary because these effects we've been discussing are too fundamental. The difference it makes to a vampire losing pretty much all of its defensive abilities is immense - no vampire in its right mind would ever polymorph.
As a module writer, I have to stay well away from this, which is frustrating.
Richard
I think that because polymorph spells do not change the recipient's actual creature type, that undead retain the traits of the undead type. Among those traits is dark vision 60ft.
The vampire in question would temporarily lose shadowless and spider climb though, since those are (Ex) traits.
Half orcs, in contrast, would lose darkvision because darkvision is a part of their form, and not a part of the humanoid type.