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The cackle hex say:
Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.
1) Some people take "cackle madly" literally, so, for them, this ability make the party easy to perceive and is noticeable, other say that it is a supernatural ability and that you can cackle without making any noise and maybe even in a unnoticeable way.
2) "an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round."
As written that allow the witch to cackle for an extended period (hours) using both his move and standard action and extend the duration of the hex by hours. It is working as intended?
3) Several hexes have the text "Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours." or "a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day". It should be read as "the target can't be affected by the hex until the next day (so, conceivably you can affect him at 23.59 and again at 00.01) of you can't affect him till 24 hour have elapsed?
(with the first interpretation the witch could keep up the fortune hex for a whole day and the reuse it on the same targets the next day, with the latter using it for a full day would bar him from using it on the same targets the next day)
Please hit the FAQ button.
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2) "an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round."
As written that allow the witch to cackle for an extended period (hours) using both his move and standard action and extend the duration of the hex by hours. It is working as intended?
Just to better clarify this point (an bumping the thread) the idea is to use 2 actions to cackle each round for 6 hour, so maintaining the hex without cackling for another 6 hours after you have stopped cackling, as you have extended the effect by 7,200 rounds while using 3,600 rounds.
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I hit FAQ, though not completely happy with how you asked the questions, especially #2.
I don't think anyone is disputing you must make some sort of sound for cackle to function, it's just that it can be at any volume you want and the target does not need to hear *you*. There is a listen DC for hearing whispers to use for guidance on hearing "soft cackling".
#2 I'd prefer if it simply asked how long a witch can keep up cackling continuously before you need some sort of con / endurance check, rather than asking it in terms of the most ridiculous application possible, which will cause anyone at paizo reading it to have a strong reaction against such an abuse and rule more harshly than he would have otherwise.
I don't see why it is unreasonable to be able to cackle for at least an hour just fine, and doing so for several hours seems quite plausible, too. I mean, you can hustle for an hour before you even have to make a check. Why should laughter be as tiring than jogging, let alone more tiring?
#3 is a very good question. I've always just assumed it meant use resets at the start of the next day regardless of when used, if only because remembering the time of day it was used on a particular creature is annoying and cumbersome.
EDIT: It'd also be nice if #1 noted that if you are unable to cackle quietly (again, not silently....not arguing for that), then using cackle to extend the Charm hex becomes unfeasible in most social situations.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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2 quick points for those who assert no noise is needed or whispering is an option for Cackle:
1. The ability description clearly states that the witch can "cackle madly" to use it. How do you "cackle madly" without making a sound? By definition, a cackle indicates that you make a sound. Adding the adjective "madly" to it, implies a noticeable sound.
2. Have you ever tried to laugh quietly? OK, now try to "cackle madly" in a whisper. It can't be done.
Sometimes, common sense has to come to the forefront for these rules. Nitpicking over word choices in the rules isn't always productive.
Despite my strict interpretation of the volume of the cackling, I actually don't have a problem with a witch cackling for hours to provide hours of benefit for his/her party by extending the fortune hex (the typical application of the potentially abusive over-use of cackle). The reason I don't mind it is actually because I rule that it is loud and noticeable and that monsters who might otherwise not notice the party now know exactly where they are.
If the party is, I don't know, trying to go and take out Tar-Baphon and want to eek out any advantage they can, I say "Sure! Hole up somewhere and cackle like an idiot for a couple of hours as part of your preparations." That actually seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Anyway, I hit the FAQ button, too, as I would like a specific ruling on this to prevent "table variation" in PFS and let players of witches know exactly what they can and can't do according to the rules.
I think the limitations that the noise of cackling would bring are all good.
Let's not forget the Witch is a full caster on top of the Hex's.
My takes:
1) I'm aware it doesn't say it has audible components, so technically it wouldn't be stopped in Silence. But that seems at odds with the strong flavor of the ability, so I have my witch players make sounds with it.
2) RAW yes. I would never allow this.
3) Due to the difference in how these are worded as opposed to the usual method, I assume it is intentional and so I enforce the 24 hour rule. In my mind, it passes the "Be the same, or be different" test of Pathfinder where similar abilities need to be the same, or else they need to be very different.
Cheapy, I don't think I understand your description for 3). Could you extrapolate?
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My take is that due to the wording, if you use it at 8:00:00 AM on Day 1, your target cannot be affected by it until 8:00:01 AM on Day 2.
The same or different philosophy is better described here. I think the text above is sufficiently different, although barely. So while I am open to the consideration of it actually meaning "they can be affected once per day" (aka: use it at 23:59:59, and then again at 00:00:00), I think it's the other possibility.
Thanks, Cheapy. As per usual, your ability to link relevant information is on-point. Also, I agree whole-heartedly with SKR's philosophy, having read it now.
Thanks! That's quite the impressive read speed there though. There was a lot to process.
It's a useful design philosophy to keep in mind when resolving issues with the rules.
Speaking just as a local GM:
You can stack up cackle effects. You will run up against the local endurance rules we usually don't get to because combats last only a short time. By staying in a combat-equivalent mode, you will get to those limits.
Cackle makes sound. The sexy pretty witch who has Haunting Song instead of the haggish Cackle, makes a sound. The target's awareness of the Cackle/Song is what makes it work.
'Same day' mechanics all fall to interpretation based on local-table fluff. So the Night Witch has a midnight reset, if she can start a fight just before midnight, she's got an advantage. Solatic Inquisitor's reset is noon, etc. I don't even always know what time it is when you guys are fighting, I surely don't want to track it to the minute.
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The target's awareness of the Cackle/Song is what makes it work.
No, it doesn't. I can Scar hex you then cackle from up to a mile away and my cackle works just fine.
The target's awareness of the Cackle/Song is what makes it work.No, it doesn't. I can Scar hex you then cackle from up to a mile away and my cackle works just fine.
I did say I was speaking as a local GM there. At my table, the Scar makes the enemy aware of the Cackle. Including the direction.
I think that has more flavor and makes more sense than the 'hushed' Cackle.
But again, speaking just for one table, there.
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2) "an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round."
As written that allow the witch to cackle for an extended period (hours) using both his move and standard action and extend the duration of the hex by hours. It is working as intended?Just to better clarify this point (an bumping the thread) the idea is to use 2 actions to cackle each round for 6 hour, so maintaining the hex without cackling for another 6 hours after you have stopped cackling, as you have extended the effect by 7,200 rounds while using 3,600 rounds.
Another point that has been raised in the other thread:
With this trick if a target leave the 30' area around the witch with a few rounds of his hex charged, if he return before the end of those rounds the hex charging will continue without interruptions.
- * -
Why the title change? This thread wasn't meant to be a discussion thread (we already have 2 of those running at this time) but a position were we could gather FAQ requests. It seemed a good idea to say that in the title of the thread.
The other threads don't have a comprehensive post to FAQ.
I hit FAQ, though not completely happy with how you asked the questions, especially #2.
I don't think anyone is disputing you must make some sort of sound for cackle to function, it's just that it can be at any volume you want and the target does not need to hear *you*. There is a listen DC for hearing whispers to use for guidance on hearing "soft cackling".
#2 I'd prefer if it simply asked how long a witch can keep up cackling continuously before you need some sort of con / endurance check, rather than asking it in terms of the most ridiculous application possible, which will cause anyone at paizo reading it to have a strong reaction against such an abuse and rule more harshly than he would have otherwise.
I don't see why it is unreasonable to be able to cackle for at least an hour just fine, and doing so for several hours seems quite plausible, too. I mean, you can hustle for an hour before you even have to make a check. Why should laughter be as tiring than jogging, let alone more tiring?
#3 is a very good question. I've always just assumed it meant use resets at the start of the next day regardless of when used, if only because remembering the time of day it was used on a particular creature is annoying and cumbersome.
EDIT: It'd also be nice if #1 noted that if you are unable to cackle quietly (again, not silently....not arguing for that), then using cackle to extend the Charm hex becomes unfeasible in most social situations.
I generally agree that the OP was written in such a way as to get a more antagonistic response from DEVs (on purpose or not is another question), and I don't like said wording... but otherwise a decent thread. Thanks, Diego!
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Cackle is not the same a laugh.
From Dictionary.com:
cack·le/ˈkæk əl/ Spelled [kak-uh l] verb, cack·led, cack·ling, noun.
verb (used without object)
1. to utter a shrill, broken sound or cry, as of a hen.
2. to laugh in a shrill, broken manner.
3. to chatter noisily; prattle.
verb (used with object)
4. to utter with cackles; express by cackling: They cackled their disapproval.
noun
5. the act or sound of cackling.
6. chatter; idle talk.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
Origin:
1175–1225; Middle English cakelen; cognate with Dutch kakelen, Low German kakeln, Swedish kackla
1) Some people take "cackle madly" literally, so, for them, this ability make the party easy to perceive and is noticeable, other say that it is a supernatural ability and that you can cackle without making any noise and maybe even in a unnoticeable way.
This is a GM call. How noticeable is it to use any supernatural ability? It's noteworthy that there is nothing in this ability that requires the target of a hex modified by the cackle to actually hear the cackling. I would also like to point out that the Scar hex increases the range to 1 mile, so obviously hearing the cackling is not required. Nor does this ability mention that a Silence spell prevents it. In my opinion, I think a person can cackle madly under his breath so I would say it can be done quietly.
2) "an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round."
As written that allow the witch to cackle for an extended period (hours) using both his move and standard action and extend the duration of the hex by hours. It is working as intended?
Yes, that is how it is supposed to work.
3) Several hexes have the text "Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours." or "a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day". It should be read as "the target can't be affected by the hex until the next day (so, conceivably you can affect him at 23.59 and again at 00.01) of you can't affect him till 24 hour have elapsed?
(with the first interpretation the witch could keep up the fortune hex for a whole day and the reuse it on the same targets the next day, with the latter using it for a full day would bar him from using it on the same targets the next day)
The game is pretty consistent on one day = 24 hour period. If it was just crossing midnight, it would specify it.
I'm just glad my assassin isn't in a party with a witch trying this...main reason: I'm almost never within 30ft of the rest of the party unless combat has been already started for a round or two, so this would be almost useless for me personally.
I mean in what game is the entire party ALWAYS within 30ft of the each other? I have played many and unless your GM always pits you against enemies in a 30ft square room then you are going to be out of that range at some point...I'm honestly tired of this question being asked at all...RAW says you can do it...then do it...but if your GM says no well then no you can't...your GM might even break your entire game up into rounds just for that...then after about 30 minutes when you get tired of him asking you every round "Are you cackling again", do you move with the rest of the group?" and asking everyone else to state that they are moving in the same direction said person (witch) would stop
EDIT: I apologize for the above RANT...tired and grumpy...but we recently booted a member of our group for trying things like this (not this specifically) but things that no one should even want to do...if I offended anyone I am sorry
My witch has my entire party scarred. Distance is irrelevant (mostly).
I see your point on that Buri...that sounds like a good plan actually
But my character would never let his witch party member scar him...he has to look quite presentable for his method of assassination...even worse that it can be used for scrying, as an assassin he doesn't want ANYONE knowing what he is doing or where he is when he's "working" while we are in a city lol
However, in the case of your party members that seems to be a good solution to the range issue
So it doesn't work for your character. Totally legit. Though, keep in mind the scar can be anywhere and of any size. It could be between your cheeks for all you know haha.
I tell my party members when I scarred them that there's a scar on the back of their hand so they can see it. If after adventuring a while and anyone else wants to benefit from the hexes out of 30 feet then those other characters should know to hit me up for a dot on their hand.
As I said...good idea...my character actually HATES one of our party members(as would he hate a witch if he/she did scar without asking lol) who is an Archer fighter...but has a good relationship with our half-orc shielded fighter...but since my contract with the party leader doesn't specifically state that I have to like any of them (only actually protect the leader), I frequently poison his(the archer) food when I hand it to him(I cook) using my Poison Pill Ring with unconscious poison...he fails quite a bit and he (in character and in person) has yet to understand why he has to make a fort save every so often or fall asleep for awhile...he's under the impression its a deity doing it right now and on a mission to find out which one and why LOL
Eventually I will make some Wisdom damaging poisons and see if I can make him go insane...
Going Insane
In-game, a person has a chance of going insane every time he suffers a tremendous shock to one of his mental ability scores—Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. Every time a creature is reduced to a score of 0 in one of these scores, there's a chance he goes insane. (Note: Wisdom damage is particularly likely to cause insanity, since a 0 Wisdom score imparts a –5 penalty on all Will saves.) Either roll on the table on this page or select an insanity appropriate to the cause of what reduced the victim's score to 0. You should make the victim's saving throw in secret—he should not know the result, nor the type of insanity that might afflict him. These effects should play out naturally—some insanities (like phobias) take days or even months to trigger or have effects, while others (such as paranoia) are immediately obvious.
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My witch has my entire party scarred. Distance is irrelevant (mostly).
Yeah, in a recent campaign, I scarred up our group, bought them pet rats, also scarred up, set up some Scrying Greater, then worked on crafting the wondrous items while the group patrolled. As they ran into beasties, I split hex the pet rats bounced the hexes to enemies within 30' of the rats, cackled a lot, and otherwise enjoyed combat from my comfort of the reflecting pool outside my comfy home in the woods.
You must have a killer int mod.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qox
Witch, Cackle Hex: Does my character literally have to cackle madly when I use this hex, or is that just flavor text?
Your character actually has to cackle—probably in a strong voice, akin to the volume and clarity necessary for verbal spell components.
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qoy
Witch, Cackle Hex: Can I use my standard action and move action to cackle twice in one round, extending another hex by two rounds?
No, you can only use cackle once per round.
This is being considered for clarification in a future printing of the Advanced Player's Guide.
Ok.
So Charm is officially worthless, and cackle-based hexes in general are kind of questionable to bother using now (since you won't always HAVE a move action to extend each round; the double use option is basically required for stability-sake).
I'm sure the antagonistic tone of how the questions were asked in the OP had absolutely nothing to do with this incredibly harsh ruling.
/extreme sarcasm
I still think these rulings are pretty O_O though.
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Ok.
So Charm is officially worthless, and cackle-based hexes in general are kind of questionable to bother using now (since you won't always HAVE a move action to extend each round; the double use option is basically required for stability-sake).
I'm sure the antagonistic tone of how the questions were asked in the OP had absolutely nothing to do with this incredibly harsh ruling.
/extreme sarcasm
** spoiler omitted **
I find myself in agreement with you here.
The loss of the cackle buffer pretty much kills the usability of most of the extendable hexes and Makes misfortune almost unusable.Misfortune is now a Full round action to get it to ever help the witch do anything (move + Standard to get the benefit for one of your own spells/hexes).
About the only way to actually get the benefit of any of these hexes back is to do the remote adventuring route. Sit at home while scrying and bouncing the effects off of scarred minions.
/sigh
I don't necessarily see it as relegating the witch to the role of "remote adventurer". It does, however, mean that your best bet as a witch is to gain proficiency in a ranged weapon and ensure that you're safely at the back of the party, with enemies having limited access to you if possible, before you start tossing out your hexes and cackling.
That said, I will probably implement a house rule that, at a certain level, the witch can Cackle as a swift action (in place of a move action) a certain number of times per day.
If anything, it seems to mean a cackling witch REQUIRES a mount to function, both in order to preserve her own move actions and to be able to catch up to an enemy trying to move far enough out of range for 1 round to terminate the effect. Which is pretty odd; not familiar with a lot of witch-related media and lore that has them depend so heavily on a mount.
But, there it is.
my last con PFS GM required me to actually cackle out loud every time I used the ability
my cackle was pretty rad
but I think it also made sure that I did not cackle 4930920 times in a row to game the system
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I don't necessarily see it as relegating the witch to the role of "remote adventurer". It does, however, mean that your best bet as a witch is to gain proficiency in a ranged weapon and ensure that you're safely at the back of the party, with enemies having limited access to you if possible, before you start tossing out your hexes and cackling.At the back of the party (which is where most casters want to be anyway), but within 30' of the bad guys.
What this will also do is make Slumber even more of the goto hex.
OTOH, I had an evil eye/cackle witch and I don't think I ever relied on double cackle. Too much else to do.
Mostly, but this change is absolutely forcing every witch to burn a Hex slot for Scar AND a feat slot for Split hex. Even with your best positioning there is no way for your witch to ever keep a hex on any non-stupid target without them.
You are either going to be burning your move action keeping your target in range and your standard action to maintain (making for the most boring game ever) OR you're going to say bork this and focus on sleeping every target in sight, (this is also a boring game).This is a Feat Tax change, with a big load of nerf on top of it.
Ah well, it's just a game and we can adjust but with the crappy spell list, poor combat abilities, negative social stigma and this nerf, PC witches are looking less and less appealing.
Thanks for the official ruling!
Though, I always interpreted that the witch doesn't necessarily have to cackle, but rather the effect is empowered by her merely reveling in the affliction of her enemies and allies. It is possible to make an inaudible laugh.
Inclined to agree that limiting cackle to only once per round is a really really painful change for a lot of witches - this is one change I probably won't introduce in my home games. I understand that cackling for hours is a legitimate RAW issue, but... Can't help but think babies and bathwater here.
If anything, it seems to mean a cackling witch REQUIRES a mount to function, both in order to preserve her own move actions and to be able to catch up to an enemy trying to move far enough out of range for 1 round to terminate the effect. Which is pretty odd; not familiar with a lot of witch-related media and lore that has them depend so heavily on a mount.
But, there it is.
Maybe witches should get a broom along with their familiar? I'd actually be sort of down with that, heh.
Inclined to agree that limiting cackle to only once per round is a really really painful change for a lot of witches - this is one change I probably won't introduce in my home games. I understand that cackling for hours is a legitimate RAW issue, but... Can't help but think babies and bathwater here.
That didn't even get "solved," though!
Sure it's more annoying, but you can still maintain a cackle for hours when limited to 1/round use. Keep in mind you can still use your standard to move, even if now you can't use it for a move action to cackle. On top of the mounted thing.
This is exactly why I complained about the OP months ago. He asked it as if the issue was multiple cackles per round but framed the issue around the emotionally charged "cackle 24 hours straight! the rules don't say no!" crap.
I don't think cackling for over an hour should be impossible, laughing is less strenuous than jogging, for crying out loud. Literally all day, or without needing some kind of endurance check, of course not.
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qox
Witch, Cackle Hex: Does my character literally have to cackle madly when I use this hex, or is that just flavor text?
Your character actually has to cackle—probably in a strong voice, akin to the volume and clarity necessary for verbal spell components.
Does this mean that Silence kills a Cackle hex the way it does a spell with verbal components ?
Mini necro.
This will look strange when a witch using the charm hex has to cackle madly after a few rounds.
Round 1: Witch beckons and speaks soothing words to an opponent who fails the will save.
...
Round 6: Witch cackles madly and chats with the opponent
Round 7: Witch cackles madly and chats with the opponent
etc.
Q: Does cackling interfere with attempts at Dimplomacy (say for those who used the Charm Hex and Cackle to make the hex last at least the minute required to use Dimplomacy)?
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This will look strange when a witch using the charm hex has to cackle madly after a few rounds.
Round 1: Witch beckons and speaks soothing words to an opponent who fails the will save.
...
Round 6: Witch cackles madly and chats with the opponent
Round 7: Witch cackles madly and chats with the opponent
etc.Q: Does cackling interfere with attempts at Dimplomacy (say for those who used the Charm Hex and Cackle to make the hex last at least the minute required to use Dimplomacy)?
Necro time again. No comments to this?
Cackling to extend Charm seems a little odd. But RAW, you can cackle for a few minutes to keep up the Charm while you (or another PC) does a Diplomacy check which will be easier due to the Charm-improved attitude.
The mental image is a little odd, the party face Diplomacying an NPC while the witch cackling on the side actually *helps* rather than unnerving the NPC.
I would suggest that fluff-wise, cackle when used to extend Charm, actually continues the "soothing words" that were used to initiate Charm in the first place.
