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Maybe I'm out of the loop but I thought the last official word on this was that they couldn't be combined. But in NPC Codex, the Grove Guardian monk on page 109 has that combination as part of her standard tactics.
Is this in error or are we back to being able to combine those two feats officially? (or have we been able to for a while now?)
I'm trying to debuild that specific monk to try and come up with a way to make my own work, and that's one element that could probably help out in the skirmisher area.
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Looking more for the official stance on this, since it's a character showing up in the official core rulebook line and because it helps to know if a big part of your character's viability hinges on having to ask for special concessions(so that you know whether or not you should be taking its allowance for granted when figuring out how other aspects of the character will work).
I just looked at my PDF that I downloaded over the summer and I see they were still using the term attack action. Heck if opening it up to spring attack is done, how about stuff like fighting defensively or the first of a full attack.
Attack Action is classified as a Standard Action. Spring Attack is a Full Attack Action in its own right.
You should still be able to use it as a part of Fighting Defensively, since RAW the description says its when attacking, and since an Attack Action is classified as a Standard Action...you add 2 and 2 together for 4.
It's most likely a mistake. I've seen nothing that officially changes this and I don't think they generally 'sneak peek' changes like this.
It's most likely a mistake. I've seen nothing that officially changes this and I don't think they generally 'sneak peek' changes like this.
I have to agree with Cheapy: While I would like to see Spring Attack and Vital Strike be useable together, I do nto think this is a signal it changed. More that an error got past the editors.
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This is a book for DMs which means it's probably one of those things that a DM can use but not the players. Kind of like how creatures in 4th edition could do things that pc's couldn't.
Doesn't anyone's parents teach them that cheating is wrong?
Historical note: This same thing happened during the PFRPG preview. Vital Strike was combined with something it didn't work with. It was an error that wasn't caught until after print.
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Much better: the axe dancer (level 8 half-orc monk) has Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple.
I don't know how.
I guess the GM can introduce this NPC and then "punish" him to show how he deals with cheaters. ;)
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This is a book for DMs which means it's probably one of those things that a DM can use but not the players. Kind of like how creatures in 4th edition could do things that pc's couldn't.
I doubt that very much, 4e is up front that NPCs are constructed differently to PCs (for better or worse).
But Pathfinder uses (or should use) the same rules for PCs as it does for NPCs and so there should theoretically not be a concept of "this combo can work for an NPC but not a PC"; especially when some players look to NPC write-ups to et ideas and see how things could work for a PC they are creating.
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This is a book for DMs which means it's probably one of those things that a DM can use but not the players. Kind of like how creatures in 4th edition could do things that pc's couldn't.I doubt that very much, 4e is up front that NPCs are constructed differently to PCs (for better or worse).
But Pathfinder uses (or should use) the same rules for PCs as it does for NPCs and so there should theoretically not be a concept of "this combo can work for an NPC but not a PC"; especially when some players look to NPC write-ups to et ideas and see how things could work for a PC they are creating.
This is exactly what I was looking to get out of the monk section from the player side of things: Looked through the characters to find the closest match to my concept to see how they made it work to help make mine work.
If it's looking like it's really an error though, that plan's a wash but at least I'd know not to depend on that option being allowed as a standard. I have to admit I was hoping it was a sneak-preview of sorts.
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This is a book for DMs which means it's probably one of those things that a DM can use but not the players. Kind of like how creatures in 4th edition could do things that pc's couldn't.I doubt that very much, 4e is up front that NPCs are constructed differently to PCs (for better or worse).
But Pathfinder uses (or should use) the same rules for PCs as it does for NPCs and so there should theoretically not be a concept of "this combo can work for an NPC but not a PC"; especially when some players look to NPC write-ups to et ideas and see how things could work for a PC they are creating.
This is exactly what I was looking to get out of the monk section from the player side of things: Looked through the characters to find the closest match to my concept to see how they made it work to help make mine work.
If it's looking like it's really an error though, that plan's a wash but at least I'd know not to depend on that option being allowed as a standard. I have to admit I was hoping it was a sneak-preview of sorts.
Until you hear something officially, don't count it out.
Historical note: This same thing happened during the PFRPG preview. Vital Strike was combined with something it didn't work with. It was an error that wasn't caught until after print.I wonder why they made the same mistake.
Maybe they are trying to give the designers a hint.
To be honest, I hope that is the case.
That sort of insanely petty action probably means the freelancer won't get much more work.
The simplest answer is still that it's a mistake. Not that the freelancer was trying to make a point, that it was a vast change, or that it's fully-stated out NPCs suddenly breaking the rules. If there's a change, it'll be in a FAQ or in the CRB v6+.
Mythic Vital Strike lets you use VS on a charge, btw. If there's anything that'll let VS work with Spring Attack as a general case, it'd most likely work with charges too. But now there's a feat that lets it work with charges.
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I haven't read the book so sorry if it sounds like I'm talking out of my butt, but does the Grove Guardian's description say it's combining both feats in combat for a Spring Vital Strike or does it just have both feats listed in its stat block? I can imagine an NPC having both feats for versatility even if they don't work together but, if there's text that says the monk is allowed to combine the two, there's probably something else going on. A missed edit/brain fart does sound like a possibility.
I'll stop talking about butts and farts now.
It really does seem like something that can be done. It DOES require 4 feats.
Also, there is a rage power (Bestial Leaper) that lets you move and perform a standard action at anytime during that move. So you can Vital Strike and use Bestial Leaper.
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I haven't read the book so sorry if it sounds like I'm talking out of my butt, but does the Grove Guardian's description say it's combining both feats in combat for a Spring Vital Strike or does it just have both feats listed in its stat block? I can imagine an NPC having both feats for versatility even if they don't work together but, if there's text that says the monk is allowed to combine the two, there's probably something else going on. A missed edit/brain fart does sound like a possibility.
I'll stop talking about butts and farts now.
It's the latter situation, and the combo is actually used as a major part of her tactics.
If it is an error, and that's what it's sounding like now, it would be nice to have some other suggestions on how to play that type of character as a skirmisher effectively if it gets updated.
Also: haha, butts...
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I've found at least four instances of this in the NPC Codex alone. Two are slightly ambiguous on the matter, but the other two leave no doubt whatsoever that the NPC was to be using the feats together. There are several more characters who have both Spring Attack and Vital Strike, but make no mention of using them together.
Lead Designer
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Hey there folks,
This is an error. Spring Attack is a special full-round action that allows you to move and make a single melee attack. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which Spring Attack is not (its a special full-round action).
I will see that this gets corrected.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Thanks for clearing it up.
RD, why do you suppose that if an NPC can do something a PC can do the same thing?
This is a serious question. Has Pathfinder made a public philosophical statement that all monsters and NPCs follow the same rules as PCs? Is that an official policy?
Because if not, I don't know why it would matter if an NPC can do something a PC can't do.
In my own games NPCs do things PCs can't do all the time. They operate under different rules than the PCs. The rule the NPC operates under is "present the PCs a challenge they can overcome".
Usually I don't even bother to try to explain to my players how an NPC accomplished something. It's just not relevant to the story, unless it IS relevant. I certainly don't feel compelled to explain every detail of every ability every NPC or monster has. And it's never, NEVER been an issue with any of my players.
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Hey there folks,
This is an error. Spring Attack is a special full-round action that allows you to move and make a single melee attack. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which Spring Attack is not (its a special full-round action).
I will see that this gets corrected.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Thanks for the clarification!
If that line is removed though, might we see some alternate suggestions on how to build that NPC's skirmishing ability back up without changing her stats or weapon choice around?
That NPC was really close to the kind of monk I've been wanting to play since forever. Just trying to find a way to make it all work.
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RD, why do you suppose that if an NPC can do something a PC can do the same thing?
Because rules is rules and fair is fair.
This is a serious question. Has Pathfinder made a public philosophical statement that all monsters and NPCs follow the same rules as PCs? Is that an official policy?
Because if not, I don't know why it would matter if an NPC can do something a PC can't do.
Because when I see that NPC do something that my character wants to do, I'm going to attempt to find out how my character can do it too. If I am told that I can't do it for a good in-game reason like, say, you have to be a cleric of <so and so>, that's fine.
But if there's no good explanation (and it's not an honest mistake), then that means it's simply fiat. If this happens repeatedly I'm going to come eventually to the conclusion that rules don't matter, it's all fiat anyway, so why bother ? My agency has been revoked by poetic license.
In my own games NPCs do things PCs can't do all the time. They operate under different rules than the PCs. The rule the NPC operates under is "present the PCs a challenge they can overcome".
So my character can't rely on his in-character knowledge about what is possible any more than I the player can rely on my rules knowledge about what is possible. I can't try to deduce things based on presented evidence because my conclusions are likely invalid because NPCs can "just do that".
Usually I don't even bother to try to explain to my players how an NPC accomplished something. It's just not relevant to the story, unless it IS relevant. I certainly don't feel compelled to explain every detail of every ability every NPC or monster has. And it's never, NEVER been an issue with any of my players.
If it's a monster, the simple "Oh, that's a monster only feat from the bestiary." is a perfectly good explanation, if it's true. "Oh, that's a custom spell that he researched on his own." is good too, PROVIDED the character could then research the spell as well (but his research may reveal that it has an unsavory component or a ridiculous casting cost). But "NPC can do this, PCs cannot, nanny nanny boo boo" is just taunting.
I knew if I waited long enough, SlimGauge would come along and answer the question better than I ever could.
I share his thoughts on the matter.
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Creative Director
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Hey there folks,
This is an error. Spring Attack is a special full-round action that allows you to move and make a single melee attack. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which Spring Attack is not (its a special full-round action).
I will see that this gets corrected.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerThanks for the clarification!
If that line is removed though, might we see some alternate suggestions on how to build that NPC's skirmishing ability back up without changing her stats or weapon choice around?
That NPC was really close to the kind of monk I've been wanting to play since forever. Just trying to find a way to make it all work.
If that line is errataed... what will be put in its place, if anything, will be whatever makes that stat block's word flow on the page not change. Copyfitting this book was one of the toughest parts of the whole thing, since we wanted all stat blocks to start at the top of a column, and the fact that each piece of art impacts the text flow in different unique ways means that if we take that bit out of the text, we might not need to add anything back in at all. Or we might need to add 2 or 3 new lines of text. It's impossible to say until we are doing it. It's actually a pretty complicated process.
In Other Words: Typesetting Sucks.
As a graphic designer and layout guy for a variety of magazines and newspapers, I know exactly what you mean, James.
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Creative Director
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In Other Words: Typesetting Sucks.
Eh... I wouldn't say that. In fact, the puzzle of making words fit on a page in an attractive layout around art while simultaneously making those words be the best words you can make them be is, to me, actually a rather enjoyable mental exercise. I copyfit most of Bestiary 1, 2, and 3 because I actually had fun copyfitting all those difficult-to-fit entries. I volunteered to do the same for NPC Codex, but THEY (Wes) wouldn't let me because I was super crazy busy getting Shattered Star finished. Which, in hindsight, and actually in foresight at the time, was a good choice on Wes's behalf.
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If that line is errataed... what will be put in its place, if anything, will be whatever makes that stat block's word flow on the page not change. Copyfitting this book was one of the toughest parts of the whole thing, since we wanted all stat blocks to start at the top of a column, and the fact that each piece of art impacts the text flow in different unique ways means that if we take that bit out of the text, we might not need to add anything back in at all. Or we might need to add 2 or 3 new lines of text. It's impossible to say until we are doing it. It's actually a pretty complicated process.
Ouch, I can imagine after that TV station stint I did(and if anything they had much lower standards for their end product). Hoping some new bit of advice on this kind of character makes it in though! :)
In Other Words: Typesetting Sucks.Eh... I wouldn't say that. In fact, the puzzle of making words fit on a page in an attractive layout around art while simultaneously making those words be the best words you can make them be is, to me, actually a rather enjoyable mental exercise. I copyfit most of Bestiary 1, 2, and 3 because I actually had fun copyfitting all those difficult-to-fit entries. I volunteered to do the same for NPC Codex, but THEY (Wes) wouldn't let me because I was super crazy busy getting Shattered Star finished. Which, in hindsight, and actually in foresight at the time, was a good choice on Wes's behalf.
I agree it can be enjoyable. What I meant was not having enough space and having to potentially cut things out.
Hey there folks,
This is an error. Spring Attack is a special full-round action that allows you to move and make a single melee attack. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which Spring Attack is not (its a special full-round action).
I will see that this gets corrected.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerThanks for the clarification!
If that line is removed though, might we see some alternate suggestions on how to build that NPC's skirmishing ability back up without changing her stats or weapon choice around?
That NPC was really close to the kind of monk I've been wanting to play since forever. Just trying to find a way to make it all work.
Well, you could always play an aasimar (or anything else, such as an orc, with Racial Heritage aasimar) and take Angel Wings and then Flyby Attack, as long as you aren't in PFS, since Flyby Attack allows Vital Strike.
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Well, you could always play an aasimar (or anything else, such as an orc, with Racial Heritage aasimar) and take Angel Wings and then Flyby Attack, as long as you aren't in PFS, since Flyby Attack allows Vital Strike.
Eh, that would actually kill the flavor I want for this character.(Vudrani human, with a strictly human appearance, holy monk-themed but not to the point of having angel wings. Maybe he could be an aasimar which would match his personality to a point, but not if it cut into his appearance)
Thanks though. I have to admit, it is a bit frustrating that it works with Flyby Attack but not Spring Attack.
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Maybe use the same tactics, but without Spring Attack? Mobility + ki point for AC means you can likely approach any target and have little chance of getting hit, especially if you're also Dex-focused and using Weapon Finesse like the Grove Guardian. You can't totally avoid the counterattacks, but if you also make the attack a Stunning Fist, perhaps those won't even occur. Then you can punch again and move out the same way...
In 3.5, I had a Spring Attacking (and Shot on the Running) scout, and it was FUN to tactically move-attack-move. And the scout's skirmish ability added +1d6 points of damage, plus 1d6 at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17. It was a really fun and versatile character (hand or throwing axe for close combat, longspear for more wide space melee (with spiked gauntlets if they closed), composite longbow for much more wider combat environs).
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Well, you could always play an aasimar (or anything else, such as an orc, with Racial Heritage aasimar) and take Angel Wings and then Flyby Attack, as long as you aren't in PFS, since Flyby Attack allows Vital Strike.Thanks though. I have to admit, it is a bit frustrating that it works with Flyby Attack but not Spring Attack.
Blame Dragons I believe...