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Can whirlwind attack be used to perform combat manuvers?


Rules Questions


I'm considering a dirty fighter build and find myself wondering if i use a whip and whirlwind attack can i use a dirty trick combat manuver to blind everyone in a 15' radius?

I am aware that dirty tricks are normally a standard action but at 9th level the dirty fighter archetype can make them as attacks.


After reaching 9th level yes. You can also use Whirlwind to trip and disarm.


Attack action, not Full-Attack action. Whirlwind still requires a Full-Attack Action which doesn't permit abilities reliant on the Attack Action (ie. Vital Strike, Sunder, etc). You could, however, combine Trip/Disarm with the Full-Attack action, replacing each individual melee attack with the stated CM.

Edit: my bad, I saw "Make dirty trick as attack (action) rather than standard action." I've been arguing with people over the nature of attack actions so long I see it even where it isn't an issue. If it's just replacing an "attack", that could be used in full-attack, AoO, or any other ability that's a standard or full-round action of its own such as Cleave.


[Deleted to prevent misinformation]

If your interpretation of the rules is that a Sunder can be made in place of any attack (rather than just as a Standard "Attack action") then it would also be consistent to be able to Sunder with a Whirlwind Attack.

I'm curious. Can you use a different maneuver for each hit of a Whirlwind Attack, or do you pick one type of attack -- damage, disarm, trip, etcetera -- and every roll is to perform that attack? I should look that up.

Edit: In the last several days I had found a dev post (old?) that said Disarm / Trip properties were necessary. Thanks for directing me to the FAQ so I know they aren't necessary.


Troubleshooter wrote:

However, a weapon must have the Disarm property to be used for Disarm maneuvers, and a weapon must have the Trip property to be used for Trip maneuvers.

If your interpretation of the rules is that a Sunder can be made in place of any attack (rather than just as a Standard "Attack action") then it would also be consistent to be able to Sunder with a Whirlwind Attack.

I'm curious. Can you use a different maneuver for each hit of a Whirlwind Attack, or do you pick one type of attack -- damage, disarm, trip, etcetera -- and ever roll is to perform that attack? I should look that up.

No, it doesn't require the Trip or Disarm properties to be used for said CMs. Trip and Disarm properties give specific bonuses to their respective combat maneuvers, but you can trip/disarm with weapons that don't have those specials.

Interpretation of the rules regarding Sunder is irrelevant. The rules stay you must perform Sunder as part of an Attack action. You can certainly hand-wave that restriction, but there's only one correct interpretation of the rules.

And yes, you can pick a different type of attack for each hit in Whirlwind Attack. Disarm and Trip both simply replace the "melee attack" so if you have 10 enemies within range of your Whip Whirlwind, you could assign damage, trip, disarm, or, in this case, dirty trick, in any combination you desire.


Hmmm so now all i need to do is add a few levels of horizon walker and then dimensional dervish into a bunch of enemies blind them all and let the fun commence.

Qadira

yeah, you can do it for trip/disarms normally. i've thought of whirlwind of trips as fun. =D
Dirty fighter 9 sounds like he can do whirlwind of dirty as well.

just remember while you've got a 15' reach with the whip, enemies standing behind other enemies will get the ranged soft cover bonus to their AC / CMD.


There is no point in arguing in this thread if the weapon does or doesn't require disarm or trip qualities to make them because OP stated that he makes whip fighter and whip has both of those traits anyway.

Qadira

there's no point arguing it anyway, its in the FAQ =)

Have fun with your dirty bird berty


Ok tell me i am reading this wrong but does

Dirty Fighter wrote:

Double Tricks (Ex)

At 13th level, when a dirty fighter performs a combat maneuver, he may apply two different conditions to his target instead of one. Each penalty condition requires a separate action to remove. At 17th level, he may apply three different conditions.

This ability replaces weapon training 3 and 4.

actually allow the use of 2-3 different combat manuvers with one roll?

Qadira

no, with a single successful CMB check, you can apply 2 dirty fighting condition penalties. at 17th, 3 separate penalties off of one successful CMB check.


Seraphimpunk wrote:
no, with a single successful CMB check, you can apply 2 dirty fighting condition penalties. at 17th, 3 separate penalties off of one successful CMB check.

Thats what i hoped was the case but the wording is terrible.


I re-read the sections in question and I think I've reached a different conclusion concerning Whirlwind Attack.

It says you make a single melee attack against each target then goes on to specify that you still need to roll attack vs each target. This says to me that this is a single melee attack "spread" over multiple targets. This means that you roll Attack for each target but you only roll damage once as there's only a single melee attack involved. This would also mean that you only have a single melee attack to replace by trip or disarm so your whole Whirlwind Attack needs to be either damage, trip, or disarm; no picking and choosing what targets get what effect.


Kazaan, if it meant to say what you think it says it would start with "you make a single melee attack against all targets"

Sczarni

Whirlwind Attack wrote:
When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll againste each opponent. (...)

It isn't a single attack at multiple opponents. You get a single attack against each opponent within range. If there is only one opponent in range you get one attack. If there are five in range you get five attacks. Sort of like taking a level 11 fighter (BaB 11, 6, 1) and taking a full-attack and assigning each attack to different targets.

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