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Hey dear folks
I am currently creating a level 3 Wizard for a homebrew campaign. I have chosen the rat familiar mainly for fluff reasons and the +2 to Fortitude saves. Here's the thing:
The master is a linguist with 3 ranks in that skill.
Question:
Does the rat familiar now understand (not speak, I'm pretty certain that'd be supernatural) 3 languages of my choice?
Thanks for any insight on this.
Cheers,
GM Raphi
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No, but the Rat would get a +3 to notice Forgeries or whatever.
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I'd say it would understand speech and would even become literate and read in those languages once its Int got high enough. it just can't speak them.
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Does the rat familiar now understand (not speak, I'm pretty certain that'd be supernatural) 3 languages of my choice?
There is a statement in the Familiars section of the Core Rulebook that states (I'm paraphrasing here) that even though the familiar may have ranks/bonus to a skill, it may still be unable to use the skill. Such if you have ranks in Profession (Boatbuilder) or something like that. Your rat would use your ranks for that skill, but couldn't actually build a boat.
Linguistics is a bit of a gray area, I think. The way I do it is that I allow the familiar to understand extra languages (I'm still on the fence about being able to read them), but can't speak them. (Not even the raven familiar can speak them.) Being able to understand additional languages makes familiars pretty good spies. :)
I do, however, insist that the language the familiar gains from Linguistics is the same language the master gains. So if you use Linguistics to give yourself the Giant language, then your familiar now understands Giant as well.
Hope this helps.
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Taffer
i totally agree...languages have to match the master's linguistic skill choices...after all your familiar will be one of the most intelligent party members
Thank you all for contributing, it's much appreciated!
No, but the Rat would get a +3 to notice Forgeries or whatever.
Hi mplindustries. What is your reasoning for saying no?
I'd say it would understand speech and would even become literate and read in those languages once its Int got high enough. it just can't speak them.
Hi Sandbox. The rat's Int is 7, as per the table on page 83 of the core rulebook. That should be enough to understand even written languages per the Intelligence section on pages 16 and 17 of the core rules. At least as far as I understand it.
Linguistics is a bit of a gray area, I think. The way I do it is that I allow the familiar to understand extra languages (I'm still on the fence about being able to read them), but can't speak them. (Not even the raven familiar can speak them.) Being able to understand additional languages makes familiars pretty good spies. :)
Hi Taffer, may I ask why you are on the fence about reading? An Int score of 7 should do the trick... shouldn't it?
I do, however, insist that the language the familiar gains from Linguistics is the same language the master gains. So if you use Linguistics to give yourself the Giant language, then your familiar now understands Giant as well.
Hope this helps.
It helps a lot, and I agree. My rat only has languages his master has too.
Thanks again folks. Will be pointing my GM to the various opinions in this thread so she can make up her own mind about it.
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Familiars have a steadily increasing Int score. Eventually, they'll be "smarter" than the average fighter.
Hi mplindustries. What is your reasoning for saying no?
"Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use."
Rat's can't speak, so Linguistics are beyond them. Even the Raven/Parrot/Thrush familiars that can speak do so as a Supernatural ability.
Also note, I was mostly joking about the rat getting a bonus to detect forgeries.
As further proof, Linguistics reads:
"Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language."
Note that a familiar never puts ranks into linguistics, and you only learn a language when you put the rank into the skill. Familairs simply have ranks because their master put ranks into linguistics. The distinction may seem silly, but having ranks in something and putting those ranks in that something are different things.
Linguistics is a bit of a gray area, I think. The way I do it is that I allow the familiar to understand extra languages (I'm still on the fence about being able to read them), but can't speak them. (Not even the raven familiar can speak them.) Being able to understand additional languages makes familiars pretty good spies. :)Hi Taffer, may I ask why you are on the fence about reading? An Int score of 7 should do the trick... shouldn't it?
At the moment, I don't really have any arguments against it. My problem is more trying to wrap my own brain around the idea. A lot of times, I find myself forgetting that the Pathfinder world is a magical one, and common sense doesn't necessarily apply. :)
One thought though, is that Linguistics should not allow the familiar to read the new languages because it doesn't know how to READ, period. (I can also see arguments for letting it read...it's now a magical beast and not limited to an animals limitations anymore, etc.).
Although the image of a monkey thumbing through a book is rather amusing. :)
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Taffer
Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use."
Rat's can't speak, so Linguistics are beyond them. Even the Raven/Parrot/Thrush familiars that can speak do so as a Supernatural ability.
Also note, I was mostly joking about the rat getting a bonus to detect forgeries.
Hm. At this point I'm not totally convinced.
As further proof, Linguistics reads:
"Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language."Note that a familiar never puts ranks into linguistics, and you only learn a language when you put the rank into the skill. Familairs simply have ranks because their master put ranks into linguistics. The distinction may seem silly, but having ranks in something and putting those ranks in that something are different things.
Huh. That's an interesting way of putting it, I'm now almost on your side... beside that it'd be cool for the rat to be able to read. :D Per Rules as Written, you seem to be correct.
Hi Taffer, may I ask why you are on the fence about reading? An Int score of 7 should do the trick... shouldn't it?At the moment, I don't really have any arguments against it. My problem is more trying to wrap my own brain around the idea. A lot of times, I find myself forgetting that the Pathfinder world is a magical one, and common sense doesn't necessarily apply. :)
One thought though, is that Linguistics should not allow the familiar to read the new languages because it doesn't know how to READ, period. (I can also see arguments for letting it read...it's now a magical beast and not limited to an animals limitations anymore, etc.).
Although the image of a monkey thumbing through a book is rather amusing. :)
Also interesting, I didn't know Familiars were all Magical Beasts!
Well, if you're interested I'll post my GM's ruling once it's been made. Thank you all for your input!
I'm having a similar issue. But to me it doesn't make sense that a familiar would not know any languages or understand its master's words until level 5. It gets the ability to deliver touch spells at level 3, so wouldn't a wizard have to communicate who to touch? I'm pretty sure you can't convince it to touch someone emotionally o.O Also it would lead me to think that "Handle Animal" would be on a wizard's skill list if they didn't have the ability to communicate with them.
If a familiar can share you skills as per ranks why would linguistics be different? Pretty much all other magical beasts can speak, or at least understand a language or two.
Also it would lead me to think that "Handle Animal" would be on a wizard's skill list if they didn't have the ability to communicate with them.
Familiars aren't Animals any more, but rather they're Magical Beasts. So the skill wouldn't apply.
If a familiar can share you skills as per ranks why would linguistics be different? Pretty much all other magical beasts can speak, or at least understand a language or two.
Linguistics aren't any different when it comes to skill checks. But knowing a language isn't a skill check. It's a by-product of putting a rank into this skill, which Familiars don't do.
I would rule that familiars can aid another on most skills that they couldn't use solo. To use Set's example, your rat familiar could fetch tools, point at a part of the boat design plan, remind you to take a break when you're tired by being cute, etc.
As a DM, you should try to find ways to say yes to things. Even better when your players get in the habit of convincing you with creativity rather than RAW.
It's a by-product of putting a rank into this skill, which Familiars don't do.
Except they can : when their INT goes up, they gain skill points to spend (10 INT => HD skill points, 12 => HD skill points, 14 => HD skill points, ...). Nothing prevent them from investing in Linguistics.
Remember : everything is retroactive in Pathfinder.
The first thing it says under magical beasts:
"Magical Beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2 (in which case the creature knows at least one language, but can’t necessarily speak)"
So it should know at least one language. To say it can't is just mistaken. From what I can tell, given there's no technical way to teach a familiar a language its something that has to be worked out with the GM. Personally I'm of the mind that a familiar should know all the languages its master knows, but I would respect a GM's ruling that said different.
The familiar is permanently stuck at 1 actual hit die and Your level in "virtual" hit dice. It doesn't gain feats or skill ranks besides what the master gets.
The familiar is permanently stuck at 1 actual hit die and Your level in "virtual" hit dice. It doesn't gain feats or skill ranks besides what the master gets.
Yes, but their INT goes up when the wizard level up. When the familiar have 10 INT, its skill per level goes from 1 (2 - X = 1) to 2 (2+0=2), and so it immediatly gain 1 skill point (or several for improved familiar, depending on their HD).
The same goes for each 2 points in INT the familiar can get.
The first thing it says under magical beasts:
"Magical Beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2 (in which case the creature knows at least one language, but can’t necessarily speak)"
So it should know at least one language. To say it can't is just mistaken. From what I can tell, given there's no technical way to teach a familiar a language its something that has to be worked out with the GM. Personally I'm of the mind that a familiar should know all the languages its master knows, but I would respect a GM's ruling that said different.
I totally agree with that, and have my opinion based on the same text.
Except they can : when their INT goes up, they gain skill points to spend (10 INT => HD skill points, 12 => HD skill points, 14 => HD skill points, ...). Nothing prevent them from investing in Linguistics.
Interesting... I can't think of any reason this wouldn't apply. There is after all no need to actually level up.
Except they can : when their INT goes up, they gain skill points to spend (10 INT => HD skill points, 12 => HD skill points, 14 => HD skill points, ...). Nothing prevent them from investing in Linguistics.Interesting... I can't think of any reason this wouldn't apply. There is after all no need to actually level up.
Yes ! When you level up, you gain a new set of skill point (X + INT modif skill points) to distribute.
But when your INT goes up, if it allows you to gain skill points, you HAVE to spend them immediatly (as you can't save them for later).