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Could a fighter be a better gunslinger than...well a gunslinger?


Advice

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@ossian666: I'm smelling some cheese with that... I'm guessing Pepperbox.

Sczarni

Nope. Double Barrel Pistols firing both each shot. He gets 2 attacks normally for BAB. 1 attack from 2 Weapon Fighting. 1 attack from Rapid Shot.

I made it VERY clear he couldn't use Weapon Cords so he took the 2 level dip into Alchemist and its not like its a terrible thing to be able to bump your Dex up 4 and drink an Elixir of Shield.


As I said I'm smelling cheese. Though this is more of a fine cheese, not Limburger.

That actually is an excellent concept though... Is it Golarion or homebrew? Does he make his own powder to reflect Alchemist training being used by the Gunslinger?

Lantern Lodge

ossian666 wrote:

Eh at level 8 the PC in my game fires 8 bullets per turn at touch AC. Tell him dual wielding isn't worth it. Considering he does roughly 12 per bullet that means he takes most enemies he is fighting down to over half health in a single turn.

Does he misfire? Yep on occasion and some nights are worse than others, but its not as bad.

He should be doing more than 12. Mine at 6th level with a +1 Distance Double Pistol does 1d8 +11 (+5 Dex, +1 PB Shot, +4 Deadly Aim, +1 Enhancement), fires six attacks per round at 4 higher than a dual wielder, and is one more feat up the chain. Plug that into a DPR calc and I guarentee you it will net a higher DPR.

Sczarni

Oh I was just adding his Pistol and Dex. I didn't take into consideration any other feats. I know he doesn't have Deadly Aim, but he has Precise Shot, PBS, 2WF, Clustered Shots and I think 1 more.

Quote:

As I said I'm smelling cheese. Though this is more of a fine cheese, not Limburger.

That actually is an excellent concept though... Is it Golarion or homebrew? Does he make his own powder to reflect Alchemist training being used by the Gunslinger?

I make him make his own bullets and powder. I'm running CoT so its based in Paizo's world, BUT I didn't want guns running wild so he is the only one around that has ONE and I made him make his second gun and upgrade to the double barrel.


@ossian666: That is a nice way to reduce their availability and keep them from becoming overwhelming.

Does he use Alchemical Cartridges?


Firing pistols and not being a pistolero? missing out on 2d6 damage on about 2 shots per round at lvl 6. Makes more sense to archetype in this case rather than go vanilla. Liking the idea of the two dbl barrel pistols but that must be hellish misfire if touching off both barrels at once and on both guns, plus two weapon fighting penalties and the minus 4 to each pistol for triggering the two barrels simultaneously.Sorry, I'm famous for run-on sentences.

Sczarni

He does use Alchemical Cartridges. Its the only way for him to pull off that many shots and still reload, but there are days where the misfires catch him off guard.

Misfires only happen if you roll a 1-3. Then a backfire/explosion is 1-6 after a misfire. Yes it happens but save your grit for that quick clear and get back to work. Pistolero is the only way to go IMO...I built most of his character because he was new to Pathfinder and I regret it because he RARELY misses.

Dark Archive

I have a great concept of "The Great White Hunter".Gunslinger Musketmaster 5, Ranger Trophy Hunter the rest of the way, he was for a Serpent Skull game I started a few months back but due to other players character choices I couldn't play him.

Lantern Lodge

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Alright so I did some quick math here. Target is an avg. Touch AC of 14. This includes rolling a 1-3 as an automatic miss.

One Handed Pistolero:

Feats:
1st: PB Shot, Rapid Reload
3rd: Deadly Aim
4th: Precise Shot
5th: Rapid Shot
7th: Snap Shot
8th: Improved Snap Shot
9th: Weapon Focus (Double Pistol)
11th: Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly)
12th: Improved Critical (Double Pistol)
13th: Quick Draw

Double Pistol +2
5th level Attack: +7/+7/+7/+7 (+5 BAB, +5 Dex, +2 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot,-2 Deadly Aim, -2 Rapid Shot, -4 Double Shot)
5th level Damage: 1d8+ 12 (+5 Dex, +2 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot, +4 Deadly Aim)
DPR: 53.128

Double Pistol +3
10th level Attack: +15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10 (+10 BAB, +7 Dex, +3 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot, +1 WF, -3 Deadly Aim, -4 Double Shot)
10th level Damage: 1d8+ 18 (+7 Dex, +3 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot, +6 Deadly Aim, +1 Class)
DPR: 133.986

Double Pistol +3
13th level Attack +17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7 (+13 BAB, +7 Dex, +3 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot, +1 WF, -4 Deadly Aim, -4 Double Shot)
13th level Damage: 1d8+ 19(+7 Dex, +3 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot, +6 Deadly Aim, +2 Class) with 3d6 precision
DPR: 291.452

Dual Wielding Pistolero:

Feats:
1st: PB Shot, Rapid Reload
3rd: Two-Weapon Fighting
4th: Precise Shot
5th: Rapid Shot
7th: Deadly Aim
8th: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9th : Weapon Focus (Double Pistol)
11th: Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly)
12th: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13th: Improved Critical (Double Pistol)

Double Pistol +1/Double Pistol +1
5th level Attack:+4/+4/+4/+4/+4/+4 (+5 BAB, +5 Dex, +1 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot, -2 Rapid Shot, -4 Double Shot, -4 TWF)
5th level Damage: 1d8+7 (+5 Dex, +1 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot)
DPR: 43.638

Double Pistol +2/Double Pistol +2
10th level Attack:+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+5/+5 (+10 BAB, +7 Dex, +2 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot, +1 WF, -3 Deadly Aim, -4 Double Shot,-4 TWF)
10th level Damage: 1d8+ 17 (+7 Dex, +2 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot, +6 Deadly Aim, +1 Class)
DPR: 185.436

Double Pistol +2/Double Pistol +2
13th level Attack +12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2/+2/+2 (+13 BAB, +7 Dex, +2 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot, -4 Deadly Aim, -4 Double Shot, -4 TWF)
13th level Damage: 1d8+ 18(+7 Dex, +2 Enhancement, +1 PB Shot, +6 Deadly Aim, +2 Class) with 3d6 precision
DPR: 409.42

Conclusion:
One Handed Pistolero
5th level DPR 53.128
10th level DPR 133.986
13th level DPR 291.452

Dual Wielding Pistolero
5th level DPR 43.638
10th level DPR 185.436
13th level DPR 409.42

So a Dual Wielder pulls away after 5th level at the cost of Snap Shot. He could sacrifice some of the DPR heats like Improved Crit and Weapon Focus, I just wanted to have two optimized builds here for damage.


Pistolero is wonderful if you are mostly in tight dungeons and such.

If you are in open ground however the Musket Master has an edge.

If you know you are going to be in both. The standard Gunslinger's flexibility is handy.


I keep seeing deadly aim on all these gunslinger builds, but doesn't it expressly not work with touch attacks, and shouldn't your goal as a gunslinger be to make all your shots touch attacks?

Lantern Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Saleem Halabi wrote:
I keep seeing deadly aim on all these gunslinger builds, but doesn't it expressly not work with touch attacks, and shouldn't your goal as a gunslinger be to make all your shots touch attacks?

Taken from PFSRD:

Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment. Unlike other projectile weapons, early firearms have a maximum range of five range increments.

Sczarni

I personally prefer the Musket Master, but if you are playing 90% of content written by/for Paizo its gonna put you in fairly close range of enemies. Paizo does a decent job of making sure you don't have HUGE spaces to fight in.

And yes, Saleem, your goal is ALWAYS to be shooting at touch AC. Hence the Distance enhancement for guns being OP.


Though they are still fairly short ranged compared to most other weapons available.

Liberty's Edge

kaisc006:
I enjoy your posts in general, and think I will take two weapon fighting at a later level after reading your last one, but I am curious as to why you take rapid reload so early on. the only reason I could see to do this would be to save money, which, granted, is a good reason, and moving and shooting is a bit easier as well, but to me it makes sense to take deadly aim for more damage. or even precise shot if you were concerned about your to hit at low levels.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Because reloading firearms as fast as possible is a bigger damage increase than deadly aim is.

Liberty's Edge

ossian666 wrote:
Because reloading firearms as fast as possible is a bigger damage increase than deadly aim is.

at low levels you wont have rapid shot/extraBAB/twf, so reloading as a free action is unnecessary. I mean, I am saying you take rapid reload at 3rd level and then rapid shot at 4th. but I am just wondering if there is any other reason to take rapid reload at 1st level...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

To be able to move and fire in every turn.

Sczarni

without rapid reload, you can't rapid shot at low levels.


Mobility seems the key for gunslingers of any class.

Liberty's Edge

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
To be able to move and fire in every turn.

yeah, using alchemical shots to reload as a move action makes movement a bit more difficult in firing, but a) it is good to learn to move as little as possible and b) if your gun is loaded you can shoot and move in a round, and the next round reload and shoot. (I am almost 3rd lvl and only a couple times have not been able to make a shot because of needing to move two rounds in a row). so is it just a matter or preference between a bit extra damage and more flexibility with moving then?

for the record, this would be my feat build (with a double pistol)

1 point blank shot, deadly aim
3 rapid reload
4 rapid shot
5 maybe precise shot or twf depending on how tough hitting targets is at that point with the double pistol and rapid shot

maybe another thing to consider is that rapid reload for double pistol is different then normal pistol. this rule gets waived often, but I am in pfs where the rule is a reality, and you cant get a double pistol until after 3rd level...


By move I meant move action... I will edit that...

The thing is if you have to reload even if it is every other round you still lose shots. It is more of combat style more than anything else.

I like to get combat over with ASAP as I prefer RPing, but some people prefer combat to RPing. To each their own.

Sczarni

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'd take Precise and Point Blank first level. Get those out of the way. Then get Rapid Reload at 3 and Rapid Shot at 4. 2WF at 5 and Clustered Shots at 6. Those are the most important feats to your build IMO.


Can a gunslinger start with a Double Barrel Pistol? They can't can they.

P.S. Andersen: I like the Avatar.


I was wondering that myself but I'm pretty sure it's basic musket, pistol or blunderbuss...pity there.

Sczarni

Yea you start with a standard broken gun. Its in the details of the Gunslinger class. I as a GM made my PC make rolls to upgrade the pistol using the Gunsmithing feat and Craft skill. Of course he still had to pay the difference between a single barrel and a double barrel in crafting mats.


I seem to have been playing it wrong... my gunslinger player isn't going to be happy...

No more starting with a Battered Double Barrel that she can sell later on to get her Pepperbox. Though I like the crafting and upgrading method.

Hmm, Now how does their free gun work with advanced firearms?

Liberty's Edge

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

I seem to have been playing it wrong... my gunslinger player isn't going to be happy...

No more starting with a Battered Double Barrel that she can sell later on to get her Pepperbox. Though I like the crafting and upgrading method.

Hmm, Now how does their free gun work with advanced firearms?

double barreled pistol is probably the best gun you can get, just because every time you fire a shot you actually fire two. there could be some argument made for using a pepper box (or an advanced firearm for that matter-- I play pfs so never really think about them) and never getting rapid reload, but I dont think it would be a convincing one...

and glad you like my avatar :)

Sczarni

so I've not really seen anything that suggests a fighter does gunslinger better than a gunslinger, that about sum up everything so far?

Without gun training it just doesn't work as well. Specifically without a grit to remove misfires.


Well, technically with amateur gunslinger a fighter could get quick clear, additionally with extra grit he could have 2 grit points. No, a fighter would not be as effective as gunslinger, but I think overall more so than say...a SPELLSLINGER(thread sabotaging in order to get your own noticed will be dealt with in kind.)

Sczarni

well spell slinger is a lame duck of a archetype anyhow, despite the cool artwork with it!

the only advantage the fighter has is in weapon training really, I'd actually see a fighter out performing early, but falling quickly behind at lvl 5+

Liberty's Edge

lantzkev wrote:

well spell slinger is a lame duck of a archetype anyhow, despite the cool artwork with it!

the only advantage the fighter has is in weapon training really, I'd actually see a fighter out performing early, but falling quickly behind at lvl 5+

I love that picture too...


ossian666 wrote:

A smart Gunslinger is probably just wearing +1 Leather Armor (with the Dex getting higher its tough to stay safe).

Darkcloth armor raises your max dex up by 2, so you can easily have Studded leather with a +7 dex mod.


lantzkev wrote:

well spell slinger is a lame duck of a archetype anyhow, despite the cool artwork with it!

the only advantage the fighter has is in weapon training really, I'd actually see a fighter out performing early, but falling quickly behind at lvl 5+

Yes to both statements.


Kolfinna wrote:
ossian666 wrote:

A smart Gunslinger is probably just wearing +1 Leather Armor (with the Dex getting higher its tough to stay safe).

Darkcloth armor raises your max dex up by 2, so you can easily have Studded leather with a +7 dex mod.

was thinking about it and I am starting to think a gunslinger near end game would really do better with Bracers of armor +8, no max dex and shooting for a +10 or more dex bonus with items that works out better than any light or medium armor that I have noticed. Also, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor are also good for not hindering dex. So with a 10base+10 Dex +8 bracers +5 ring +5 amulet +4 nimble +1 dodge thats a 43 AC on a ranged character with plenty of room to spare for say a +5 buckler and combat expertise/fighting defensively enhanced by acrobatics.

Sczarni

That may kind of be true...but that is EXPENSIVE as heck.


Isn't it that way for all characters after a certain level? I mean to stay competitive. Throw in pistols of the infinite sky and then if you feel like it add the costs of that plus all the gear I listed and see where it falls on the WBL chart, I bet it's at the very LEAST 16th level.


Silk Ceremonial Armour/Haramaki can be good for lower levels.

Lantern Lodge

andersen wrote:
kaisc006:I am curious as to why you take rapid reload so early on.

Sorry I took so long to reply was at U Con today but looks like people explained it :) Some other considerations:

Movement: You mentioned that a gunslinger needs to get used to not moving, but a gunslinger actually moves a lot. You must move within that first range increment so movement becomes key. Also, you may not be able to afford alchemical charges so early in the game so sticking with normal bullets means you can fire every round. I envision the gunslinger like a melee reach fighter that doesn't threaten and in many ways handles like a whip fighter.

Double Pistol: I play pfs too so didn't begin with a double pistol. However, in society play you should get one at 2nd level. With rapid reload, you now can fire twice every standard action. This is the only time I use double shot unless in an emergency to avoid a potential explosion (plus rolling so many attacks gets obnoxious lol). Also you'll be dealing fantastic DPR so double shotting all the time isn't necessary.


I have learned to carry a bow/arrows or a crossbow/bolts for the earlier levels as a back up ranged weapon. Alongside some Melee weapon (usually usable with Weapon Finesse) for those cases where it is necessary.

Liberty's Edge

kaisc006 wrote:
andersen wrote:
kaisc006:I am curious as to why you take rapid reload so early on.

Sorry I took so long to reply was at U Con today but looks like people explained it :) Some other considerations:

Movement: You mentioned that a gunslinger needs to get used to not moving, but a gunslinger actually moves a lot. You must move within that first range increment so movement becomes key. Also, you may not be able to afford alchemical charges so early in the game so sticking with normal bullets means you can fire every round. I envision the gunslinger like a melee reach fighter that doesn't threaten and in many ways handles like a whip fighter.

Double Pistol: I play pfs too so didn't begin with a double pistol. However, in society play you should get one at 2nd level. With rapid reload, you now can fire twice every standard action. This is the only time I use double shot unless in an emergency to avoid a potential explosion (plus rolling so many attacks gets obnoxious lol). Also you'll be dealing fantastic DPR so double shotting all the time isn't necessary.

yeah, I guess I have been lucky thus far with encounters, moving into place in the that first round, and then reloading the beginning of each following round, the 5ft step being enough to do any repositioning. in one instance I stealthed into position before the melee started. it didnt quite work, I was busted at the last moment, so was in position, but rest of the party wasnt in the room when it all started. it was fun to try!

though with fame, it isn't until 1/3 into third level that you have the fame to make the double pistol purchase (and this is assuming you are getting 2 pp every game). in pfs you dont get the half cost craft firearms.


Hmm, I really need to read about PFS some more.

Liberty's Edge

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Hmm, I really need to read about PFS some more.

yeah, so many little rule variations to remember! and you have to be so RAW since the idea of pfs is that you can play anywhere and so need to maintain an objective as possible understanding of the rules. thus the annoying rapid reload for double pistol being different then the starter pistol. but it is fun and makes sense that as a pathfinder you would work/adventure with multiple different adventurers...


I can imagine it being fun. My problem is in my area we have very little RPG players. The few I have met only play 4e simply because of its availability and the fact that it has the D&D name.

On Topic: A Ranger could make a better gunslinger than a Fighter.

Lantern Lodge

andersen wrote:
though with fame, it isn't until 1/3 into third level that you have the fame to make the double pistol purchase (and this is assuming you are getting 2 pp every game). in pfs you dont get the half cost craft firearms.

Reread the section regarding fame. Double Pistols are always available so long as you have the cash, so is mithril or adamantium armor.

Silver Crusade

I have found that when I look at making a gunslinger I find a wall at level 5. I have the good ability, the last one I care about for several levels (level 13). The build I would use would be a Gunslinger (musket master) 5 / Fighter (weapon master) X, simply because I find more value in the abilities I get from fighter (weapon training and feats) than gunslinger (grit abilities of varying usefulness).

Of course that's in terms of being a character that uses a gun, not really a "gunslinger", which comes with a certain set of abilities. The fighter can't be a better gunslinger becasue he doesn't get the gunslinger's abilities, but he can be a better gun user, which is what I assume the real point is. Even then, a few levels in gunslinger help immensly and make a better gun user than either class seperately.

Liberty's Edge

kaisc006 wrote:
andersen wrote:
though with fame, it isn't until 1/3 into third level that you have the fame to make the double pistol purchase (and this is assuming you are getting 2 pp every game). in pfs you dont get the half cost craft firearms.
Reread the section regarding fame. Double Pistols are always available so long as you have the cash, so is mithril or adamantium armor.

omg, you are totally right, what was I thinking??? it must have gotten into my head somewhere that double pistols were outside of "always available"... though ironically, the whole impetus for my comments in this thread was to suggest not taking rapid reload, but now that I dont have it, I cant take full advantage of a double pistol! but thanks, glad I found this out..


@andersen: I am so glad I am not the only one who has moments like that.

Liberty's Edge

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
@andersen: I am so glad I am not the only one who has moments like that.

they happen all too often :)

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