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Rolling with Revan's suggestions from way back:
I'd go one step further and include some means for the mnnk to perform the enhancement himself, through an equivalent cost in incense, books/scrolls of martial/ascetic wisdom, and so forth to be used in enhancing rituals.
That way, when the monk is punching and kicking with fists and legs awash with holy flame, it's because of something the monk did through his own enlightenment rather than having to thank a wizard for being so awesome.
100% agree with this.
As a side note, it also moves the Vow of Poverty monk closer to viable.
I don't think it adds any complexity to the game, such abilities are already present (paladin divine bond, the magus arcane pool ability) and the ki pool right now gets viewed as a limited resource the monk has to spend frequently because they don't have enough accuracy. This fixes that issue, it isn't like handing every monk in existence thousands of gold, for them to really capitalize on the opportunity they will still need an AoMF, it just makes the cost of said amulet more in line with what it grants.
Rolling with Revan's suggestions from way back:
I'd go one step further and include some means for the mnnk to perform the enhancement himself, through an equivalent cost in incense, books/scrolls of martial/ascetic wisdom, and so forth to be used in enhancing rituals.
That way, when the monk is punching and kicking with fists and legs awash with holy flame, it's because of something the monk did through his own enlightenment rather than having to thank a wizard for being so awesome.
100% agree with this.
As a side note, it also moves the Vow of Poverty monk closer to viable.
I only have two problems with this one.
One, I get that spending gold for books/scrolls of esoteric knowledge, massive training regimens etc is a way to represent the cash outlay, but it feels more Dragon Ball Z less mystic enlightenment/ancient wisdom/inner power.
Also, by spending cash to enchant yourself, you will end up either 1) ignoring the crafting time requirement, thereby meaning as soon as you can get the money, BAM!!!! insta enchant, as compared to other classes who need to find a shop, get a drop etc or 2) be totally FUBARed in a campaign (AP anyone) where you get no significant downtime, especially at higher levels. Not to mention that going that way, any choices are permanent, so all of a sudden, instead of it being a useful addition that adds flavor and style to the class, it becomes something that mechanically, you could easily point to someone and say "thats far from optimal, your doing it wrong" There is enough of that in the game as is. Adding it as a core feature to a core class? Bad idea...
Ok, that was more like 3 problems. Meh...
Oh, and Ciretose, reread vow of poverty, going this route, that vow is still a handicap, you keeping a few thousand to tens of thousands of gp worth of stuff laying around to enchant yourself is just a little more than what the vow allows you to have.
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Oh, and Ciretose, reread vow of poverty, going this route, that vow is still a handicap, you keeping a few thousand to tens of thousands of gp worth of stuff laying around to enchant yourself is just a little more than what the vow allows you to have.
Depends on the mechanics of how they do the enchantment. It could be a monastic donation, and the journey/ceremony could be part of the costs.
I think the Ki option requires extra table math and "If I have this, then my new attack is this" calculation.
Either way, we are just taking different approaches to skinning the same cat.
The question of the thread is if any monk defenders can take this add on and make a "broken" monk.
Something I see stated often is "ki-based" and it is often criticized as being an unnecessary expenditure. Since I have, at one point, made a "ki-based" suggestion I would like to clarify a matter.
Ki-based does not necessarily mean ki expense.
At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike.
I actually prefer treating the static bonus alternatives in the same vein as ki strike. It does not expend ki, however you must have at least 1 ki point.
One of the problems I see with using enhancement bonuses the way that many do is that they cease to function when stacking. If an adventure path contains a +1 Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists, then any monk with a +2 enhancement bonus to their body has a very frustrating choice to make. Using the Holy item will effective shut down the +2 enhancement to themselves and downgrade it to the +1. However, the item is of a higher effective level and you would think more valuable.
The developers do not wish to make the AoMF obsolete, so I would suggest we continue to let it be the money sink that it is and simply help the Monk stand on it's feet with a little helping hand. A monk with a +10 bonus (+5 amulet and +5 body enhancement) I believe becomes slightly too powerful. When stacked alongside a bard you will see far too many flurry of misses become flurry of blows.
I prefer the bonus stated above but not to damage.
Starting a level 5, a monk adds a +1 divine bonus to their attack roll as long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels beyond fifth (ex. +2 at level 9, +3 at level 13, +4 at level 17).
What this will do is allow the monk to take AoMF +5 as well, get a +9 compared to their previously limited +5, but only receiving the same +5 to damage. Also, if you stack only enhancement on your AoMF, you are not receiving weapon properties, such as Keen or Bane. No overpowering there, but still allowing Stunning Fist a chance to actually hit.
That is to say, if we also allow Monk to receive DR, which I think is another topic that I haven't looked at the numbers with. Honestly, monk's need some help in this arena fairly badly. I was frustrated horribly with my Monk and even my natural attacking Dragon Disciple when DR came into play, but at least the DD had a massive strength to come out and still do damage.
To make this a practical exercise (one that I cannot do myself at work), those who are feeling up to the challenge should all endeavor to make a level 20 base monk, a level 20 monk with ciretose's suggestion, and if anybody has any faith in my idea you can feel free to make that as well. Throw all of them in a damage calculator and compare against the typical Fighter, Rogue, Druid, and Paladin builds.
I say level 20 because I am worried about overpowering. Honestly, this exercise should be done at multiple level intervals.
My instincts are leading me to believe ciretose's may come a bit too close to the Fighter for my liking, but I'd be very happy to be wrong (and proven so).
I designed a ritual for +1 ing a monk's limbs. Take another look at that topic.
I think scaling a monks stunning fist would make them better in their role. Like a spell they should stun for 1 round per level.
At third it could go up to full unconsciousness for one round per level, or one minute per level stunning. This would be a TKO.
At 5th level they can add a special condition thet won't be noticed till they wake up.
Go to New Ritual System.
Let's say that you change the monk to allow them to enhance the attack and damage bonus. Let's say enhancing them is equal to the cost of enhancing two weapons.
Let us further say that to avoid dip issues, this can starts at 4th Level, where you can add a +1 enhancement. Every three levels, you can increase this by +1 (+2 7th, +3 10th, +4 13th, +5 16th) capping at a maximum of +5. For fluff we will say this comes from intense meditation and focus, with special material needed for the ceremony.
Now, the AoMF does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability. So you could have any melee special abilities come from the AoMF, while the attack bonuses come from the monk special ability.
The question, in two parts.
1. Would this break the class (too powerful)
2. Would this fix the class (make it powerful enough)Discuss, preferably with math.
OK, looking at this, if the monk can enhance his unarmed strikes, it does get past some problems he has. He would still be paying more in total for +10 equivelant weapons, and his enhancement would still lag a little because he has to not just have the ability but the gold and the time. If he doesn't have these two luxuries (and I have been in games where they are luxuries) it doesn't happen, while other characters do not have to wait for enhancement, they can buy off-the-shelf or pick up common items as loot.
What you also have to bear in mind is that monk base unarmed damage is already scaling. It isn't as good as it looks, but it does already scale, and Paizo have stated, among other things, that they have no interest in boosting the monk's damage output further, and this would do that.
Personally I don't think it's brokenly good, but it has issues. One of them is that it doesn't address the probable loss of bonus to hit from MAD, and it only indirectly addresses the DR issue.
Further, if it is an inherent ability of the class, why does it cost gold and time to use?
To my mind, if the ability is inherent then you don't pay for it.
It's not a bad solution, but it's klunky and it's only a partial solution, to my mind. I prefer (but then I would) my three-point fix of the issue.
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The question is does this boost damage output to the point of it infringing on the martial classes?
This is kind of why I am looking for "Monk is fine" people to post "Broken" builds so we can look at it.
When they say they don't want to boost damage, are they actually looking a the DPR.
I don't think you can give it for free, and the MAD I view as a limit rather than an issue.
The scaling of unarmed damage is hardly overwhelming in the grand scheme of things, but my saying that and it being shown to be a problem in build are two separate things.
I am unsure. I would have to crunch some numbers on availability but basically think of the AoMF at any level, and double the bonus on it. That's the equivelant enhancement that is becoming available with this.
So at 10th level you could in theory have:
+3 to body enhancement
+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists
Monk's robe
That's 2d6+3+{properties to +2}+strength bonus in damage. I can see that making a lot of people leery of it.
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I am unsure. I would have to crunch some numbers on availability but basically think of the AoMF at any level, and double the bonus on it. That's the equivelant enhancement that is becoming available with this.
So at 10th level you could in theory have:
+3 to body enhancement
+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists
Monk's robeThat's 2d6+3+{properties to +2}+strength bonus in damage. I can see that making a lot of people leery of it.
But the question for me is how does it compare to what other 3/4 BaB classes can do now.
If it doesn't kick the power level past the other current classes, it shouldn't be an issue.
It would be cheaper for the monk to add enhancements to unarmed, but the monk also still has the MAD issue, if that needs to be compensated for as well.
Again, without seeing the full build, I don't know that having the monk robe, AoMF and 2d6+3 would equal a monk that is more powerful than, say a 10th level rogue with 5d6 sneak attack and 5 rogue talents, one of which may be advanced.
It may very well be too much, but without it being built out it is hard for me to say.
I appreciate that. To compare it, though, a bladebound magus at this level could have:
+3 weapon (scimitar or rapier would be best) +2 properties from arcane pool without paying a copper.
On the flip side the damage output is is:
1d6+3+{properties to +2}+strength on a higher threat range.
OK, looking at this another way, let me take the monk build for Icandu and adjust for this:
Icandu
Male Human (Vudrani) Monk 13
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 34, touch 30, flat-footed 25 (+4 armor, +8 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 81 (13d8+13)
Fort +12, Ref +19, Will +16
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison; SR 23
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Offense
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Speed 70 ft.
Melee +1 Mithral Kama +18/+13 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham +18/+13 (1d6+1/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +20/+15 (FoB +22/+22/+17/+17/+12) (2d6+4/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +18/+13 (1d8+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken +18/+13 (1d2+1/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
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Statistics
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Str 10/12, Dex 20/26, Con 10/12, Int 14, Wis 16/20, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +21 (+23 Grappling, +23 Tripping); CMD 40 (42 vs. Grapple, 42 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Traits Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device), Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb)
Skills Acrobatics +24, Appraise +3, Climb +20, Disable Device +32, Escape Artist +13, Heal +6, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +21, Ride +12, Sense Motive +21, Sleight of Hand +13, Stealth +24, Swim +8
Languages Common, Draconic, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ Abundant Step, AC Bonus +8, Astrolabe, Earplugs, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Map Maker's Kit, Purity of Body, Ram, portable, Slow Fall 60', Smoked Goggles, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Vow of Truth (+2 Ki), Wholeness of Body (13 HP/use)
Combat Gear +1 Crossbow, Light, +1 Mithral Kama, Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken (50), Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham, Self-Enhancement +3 (36,000gp); Other Gear Acid Flask (3), Alchemist's Fire Flask (3), Alkali Flask (3), Astrolabe, Bedroll, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +6, Bladeguard, Blanket, winter, Bracers of Armor, +4, Caltrops (2), Chalk, 1 piece, Climber's kit, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Crowbar, Earplugs, Everburning torch, Fishhook, Flint and steel, Goggles of Minute Seeing, Grappling hook, Hammer, Handy Haversack (67 @ 129.64 lbs), Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Heatstone, Holy Water Flask (3), Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism, Ioun Stone, Pale Blue Rhomboid, Ioun Stone, Pink Rhomboid, Liquid Ice (3), Map Maker's Kit, Mirror, small steel, Oil of Bless Weapon (2), Piton (10), Pole, 10-foot, Pot, iron, Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (2), Potion of Fly, Potion of Invisibility, Potion of Remove Curse, Potion of Resist Acid 10, Potion of Resist Fire 10, Powder (2), Ram, portable, Rations, trail (per day) (3), Ring of Protection, +2, Rope, silk (50 ft.) (2), Sack (empty), Sack (empty), Sewing needle, Smoked Goggles, Spade or shovel, Spyglass, Sunrod (3), Tanglefoot bag (3), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Twine (50'), Whetstone
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Special Abilities
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Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
AC Bonus +8 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Astrolabe +2 navigation
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) You may make up to 9 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Earplugs +2 save vs. hearing effects, -5 hearing-based Perception.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+40') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point) (Ex) +13 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Map Maker's Kit +2 Circumstance for Survival to avoid becoming lost.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Ram, portable +2 to STR checks to break open a door, and allows a second helper (+2).
Slow Fall 60' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Smoked Goggles +8 save vs. visual effects, -4 sight-based Perception and you treat all opponents as having 20% concealment.
Spell Resistance (23) You have Spell Resistance.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (13 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb) Climb becomes a Wisdom-based, class skill.
Now Icandu is +1 better off to hit and has 9,000gp to spend with a free amulet slot. His damage is worse off by 5, but he can pierce material DR. So looking at available options:
Now comparing this to my own ideas of a fix, they are not too different, but there are some differences:
The big difference between the two is my way with Icandu is that the AoMF is a bit more important, while the enhancement is incomplete but free.
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I think we agree. I am actually of the opinion looking at the numbers that the best fix may be to swap out the monk unarmed damage bonus for a straight enhancement bonus that include the overcoming DR stuff.
Damage wouldn't increase, AoMF wouldn't be obsolete (bonus wouldn't stack, but AoMF can add melee enhancements), monk weapons are still viable alternatives, unarmed can hit.
4th is +1
8th is +2
12th is +3
16th is +4
20th is +5
Clean and simple swap.
EDIT: Best part is we can plug this easily into existing monk builds and look to see what effect it has. Only real change would if you have an AoMF you would swapping any AoMF bonuses for melee weapon properties.
Otherwise we can just look at posted builds and see how they do.
You do realise that this is more or less what I did in my Mystic Monk, right?
Flat 1d6 damage, 3/4 BAB, weapon training with monk weapons to give a total +4 to hit and damage by level 20, enhancement to another +5 to hit and damage by level 20. You can increase dice or threat range as well, so a monk could have by level 20: 1d6 + 4 (training) + 5 (enhancement) 16-20/x2.
Respectable, but not OPed on 3/4 BAB.
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You do realise that this is more or less what I did in my Mystic Monk, right?
Flat 1d6 damage, 3/4 BAB, weapon training with monk weapons to give a total +4 to hit and damage by level 20, enhancement to another +5 to hit and damage by level 20. You can increase dice or threat range as well, so a monk could have by level 20: 1d6 + 4 (training) + 5 (enhancement) 16-20/x2.
Respectable, but not OPed on 3/4 BAB.
I always said you and I aren't far apart. I don't like your wisdom bonus, and you generally just go a touch farther than I do on rebalancing the class, but that is splitting hairs if we have some core we agree on that should be added.
This seems to be one that would improve without a major change.
I'd be interested to see if anyone could make this "broken" and if not maybe we can talk the Devs into it, since it meets all criteria they set.
I think it's too big a change for them to go for - they just want tweaks, unfortunately. A shame, because rising damage dice has been possibly the worst thing to happen to the monk and was used to justify all sorts of nerfs.
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I think it's too big a change for them to go for - they just want tweaks, unfortunately. A shame, because rising damage dice has been possibly the worst thing to happen to the monk and was used to justify all sorts of nerfs.
I think the other proposed changes are much more extreme.
Let's look at the list of concerns.
1. No increase in damage. DPR goes up because attack bonus goes up (as the consensus agrees needs to happen), but base damage doesn't. It actually goes down slightly, on average. However now it overcomes DR the same as a normal weapon.
2. AoMF can't be made obsolete. It isn't. It actually becomes viable and useful as an option and a choice. It remains best for the monk, but usable by others. Win/Win.
Looking at the things that need to be fixed.
1. Attack bonus. Check.
2. Overcoming DR. Check.
3. Unarmed strike viable. Check.
And on top of that, it doesn't obsolete other builds, it doesn't require a major overhaul, doesn't create a dip class (4 levels to get a +1 enhancement that doesn't stack) and could be a fix that fits into the existing core framework.
Hell it takes up less word space. The current has this text AND a chart.
"A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk. The unarmed damage values listed on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage on the table given below."
Win. Win. Win.
Can someone show this being broken, because if not I think we have our fix.
Part of it, certainly. We should work on presenting a suite of options, and this would certainly be good as one of them.
Hmm, let me re-ask. I think my proposal was buried and generally ignored, but at the very least I can pull out an important snippet from my post.
To look at it objectively we need data.
ciretose, would you please build a level 20 monk using your fix? We'll go with the rules used for the level 13 tests, particularly a 20 point buy. Try to make it as strong as you can. Please keep in mind that the drawback of having the automatic enhancement bonus means that you have much less need to invest in AoMF, particularly up to +5, and spend your WPL wisely.
Dabbler, would you please do the same? Also with your fix please remember that Wisdom to hit reduces the versatility of Dex for AC, and that Reflex saves can still be high without a high Dex focus.
Through this we should get different monks that we can compare to a variety of DPS scenarios.
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I'll start working on it when I get home this evening, but I think the fact that I am in the "Monk needs work" camp will negate any findings I make.
Functionally, it would have no effect until 4th level, so I will probably start there and work up to level 20, each level as a post.
Also, if someone wants to poke Brain, we could take his builds and apply the "fix".
Oh I understand what it does, but my point is simply this:
Would you spend 125,000 gp to get a Holy Keen Ghost Touch Dragon Bane amulet, or would you instead buy a Keen amulet for 5,000 gp and a Holy amulet for 20,000 gp and change them depending upon the theme of the dungeon?
The chances of somebody making a +5 amulet are lowered, primarily because weapon enhancements are often times game specific when you evaluate their usefulness. Ki-focus, Spell-storing, Wounding can be used in a strategy as required consistently, but some of these features can also be gotten other ways, like using Boots of Speed instead of a Speed weapon.
All I'm saying is, actually use your WPL wisely.
I'll tale a look at it when I can. Take your point about swapping amulets, in fact there are some options that encourage it in UE.
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Oh I understand what it does, but my point is simply this:
Would you spend 125,000 gp to get a Holy Keen Ghost Touch Dragon Bane amulet, or would you instead buy a Keen amulet for 5,000 gp and a Holy amulet for 20,000 gp and change them depending upon the theme of the dungeon?
The chances of somebody making a +5 amulet are lowered, primarily because weapon enhancements are often times game specific when you evaluate their usefulness. Ki-focus, Spell-storing, Wounding can be used in a strategy as required consistently, but some of these features can also be gotten other ways, like using Boots of Speed instead of a Speed weapon.
All I'm saying is, actually use your WPL wisely.
Hence the test.
I suspect I would make purchases as you describe, but keep in mind I am applying them all to a 1d6 weapon that does bludgeoning damage and only crits on a 20, sans any feats.
The holy AoMF for 20k is going to be a smart purchase, when I am at a level I can afford it. But is that going to break the monk or have them pull even.
This is why I want people to make builds with the intent of being broken, so we can compare them to other classes and see if it really is broken or just moving the monk closer to being on par.
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Ok, 4th level, 20 point buy Dwarf, sticking to core for now. Please feel free to check my math, I'm doing this quick and dirty since we are going up a lot of levels.
Str 18 (13) +1 4th
Dex 12 (2)
Con 12 (0) +2 Racial
Wis 16 (5) +2 Racial
Int 10 (0)
Cha 8 (0) -2 Racial
AC 18 (1 dex, 3 Wisdom, +1 dodge, +1 monk, +1 ring, +1 Bracers)
HP 29 (+1 per level)
Movement 30
Attack +8 (1d6+5 damage (4 str, 1 enhancement)
Flurry +7/+7 (1d6+5)
Stun DC 15
Fort:6 Ref:6 Will:8 (+2 enchantment)
Skills (16 to spend)
Feats
1st Toughness
Monk 1 (Dodge)
Monk 2 (Improved Grapple
3rd Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Equipment (6k gold)
Ring of protection +1 (2000)
Bracers of Armor +1 (1000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
1000 misc
Not much change at this level, damage is the same more or less, but hit bonus is higher and I don't need to buy a weapon. I was a bit lazy on the equipment, I have 1000 left to spend on various things and the handy haversack isn't "required"
5th shortly, after some feedback on this
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Str 18 (13) +1 4th
Dex 12 (2)
Con 12 (0) +2 Racial
Wis 16 (5) +2 Racial
Int 10 (0)
Cha 8 (0) -2 Racial
AC 18 (1 dex, 3 Wisdom, +1 dodge, +1 monk, +1 ring, +1 Bracers)
HP 35 (+1 per level)
Movement 30
Attack +8 (1d6+5 damage +1d6 flaming(4 str, 1 enhancement)
Flurry +8/+8 (1d6+5 +1d6 flaming)
Stun DC 15
Fort:6 Ref:6 Will:8 (+2 enchantment)
Skills (21 to spend)
Feats
1st Toughness
Monk 1 (Dodge)
Monk 2 (Improved Grapple
3rd Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Equipment (6k gold)
Ring of protection +1 (2000)
Bracers of Armor +1 (1000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
Amulet of Mighty Fists (flaming)
Immune to all diseases.
Ki Pool of 5
This is the first time I can afford AoMF. I selected flaming, which gives me another D6 of damage. That takes up the WBL for 5th when added to the rest (I'm actually a bit over, but I can lose the haversack and be under)
So I am doing decent damage at this point. Defenses are ok, although hit points are low.
Thoughts before I move on?
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Str 18 (13) +1 4th
Dex 12 (2)
Con 12 (0) +2 Racial
Wis 18 (5) +2 Racial +2 Headband
Int 10 (0)
Cha 8 (0) -2 Racial
AC 19 (1 dex, 3 Wisdom, +1 dodge, +1 monk, +1 ring, +1 Bracers)
HP 43 (+1 per level)
Movement 40
Attack +9 (1d6+5 damage +1d6 flaming(4 str, 1 enhancement)
Flurry +9/+9/+4 (1d6+5 +1d6 flaming)
Stun DC 17
Fort:7 Ref:7 Will:10 (+2 enchantment)
Skills (25 to spend)
Feats
1st Toughness
Monk 1 (Dodge)
Monk 2 (Improved Grapple
3rd Weapon Focus (unarmed)
5th Power attack
Monk 6 Improved Disarm
Equipment (16k gold)
Ring of protection +1 (2000)
Bracers of Armor +1 (1000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
Amulet of Mighty Fists (flaming) (5000)
Headband of inspired Wisdom (4000)
Immune to all diseases.
Ki Pool of 6
So my damage is basically the same, which is pretty good. I got the Wisdom boosting item so my AC and Save DC go up a touch.
Still have a bit of gold to spare for misc, but not enough to get anything substantial. So far, so good I think on both ends. I can hit and do damage, and I don't seem to be overpowered.
** spoiler omitted **
This is the first time I can afford AoMF. I selected flaming, which gives me another D6 of damage. That takes up the WBL for 5th when added to the rest (I'm actually a bit over, but I can lose the haversack and be under)
So I am doing decent damage at this point. Defenses are ok, although hit points are low.
Thoughts before I move on?
Flaming is good.
It stops regeneration and lights flammables.A potion of fire resistance might come in handy.
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** spoiler omitted **
This is the first time I can afford AoMF. I selected flaming, which gives me another D6 of damage. That takes up the WBL for 5th when added to the rest (I'm actually a bit over, but I can lose the haversack and be under)
So I am doing decent damage at this point. Defenses are ok, although hit points are low.
Thoughts before I move on?
Flaming is good.
It stops regeneration and lights flammables.
A potion of fire resistance might come in handy.
That was my thought as well. I think the extra d6 of damage combined with the +1 to attack is pretty helpful in bringing the monk up to a useful level, for this level.
I'll work on Level 7 soon, but I was kind of waiting to see if I got more feedback before I went on.
I would also be more than open to a counter build of another class at the same level to compare it to, or discussion of encounters at that level.
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By the way, someone in another thread made a good point about how this would interact with the Monk Robe. For the purposes of this experiment I am going to assume the monk robe increases unarmed damage to 1d8, which is basically the adjustment it would give from 1d6, and frankly the adjustment I think makes the most sense if you make the change.
I think if it is worded as "One size category larger" that would basically make this adjustment without messing with word count.
If anyone else can think of items that would be impacted, let me know. The only one I can think of is the Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes, which is an item with no history that created more problems than it solved.
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On to 7
Str 20 (13) +1 4th +2 Belt
Dex 14 (2) +2 Belt
Con 12 (0) +2 Racial
Wis 18 (5) +2 Racial +2 Headband
Int 10 (0)
Cha 8 (0) -2 Racial
AC 20 (2 dex, 4 Wisdom, +1 dodge, +1 monk, +1 ring, +1 Bracers)
HP 50 (+1 per level)
Movement 40
Attack +11 (1d6+5 damage +1d6 flaming(4 str, 1 enhancement)
Flurry +11/+11/+6 (1d6+6 +1d6 flaming)
Stun DC 17
Fort:7 Ref:8 Will:10 (+2 enchantment)
Skills (30 to spend)
Feats
1st Toughness
Monk 1 (Dodge)
Monk 2 (Improved Grapple
3rd Weapon Focus (unarmed)
5th Power attack
Monk 6 Improved Disarm
Equipment (16k gold)
Ring of protection +1 (2000)
Bracers of Armor +1 (1000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
Amulet of Mighty Fists (flaming) (5000)
Headband of inspired Wisdom (4000)
Belt of Physical Might (Dex/Str) +2 (10000)
500 Misc
Immune to all diseases.
Wholeness of Body
Ki Pool of 7
Had to give up the haversack to afford the belt of physical might, which to me is actually a good thing, as it shows I am still making cost choices. My AC is up to 20, my damage is up a touch, but by no means scary or overpowered.
Comments, math checking. Again, this is all quick and dirty, but I am pleased so far. I would play this character.
This week is crazy because of Halloween, but hopefully I can find a moment to figure out your DPR and stunning percentile at each level. These low levels I'd expect to be on par and not shining as it will later.
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This week is crazy because of Halloween, but hopefully I can find a moment to figure out your DPR and stunning percentile at each level. These low levels I'd expect to be on par and not shining as it will later.
And feel free to call me out if you feel I'm under playing things.
So far, I can't afford the next level of AoMF, or multiple AoMF to trade out, so it is more a moot point.
Basically we have added 1d6 flaming (as otherwise it would be a +1 AoMF which gives the bonus I have inherently for the same price). I don't think that causes power issues, but I do think it is pretty spot on for the right amount of boost at these levels the monk needs to be a threat.
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Number 8
Str 20 (13) +1 4th +2 Belt
Dex 14 (2) +2 Belt
Con 12 (0) +2 Racial
Wis 19 (5) +2 Racial +2 Headband +1 8th
Int 10 (0)
Cha 8 (0) -2 Racial
AC 23 (2 dex, 4 Wisdom, +1 dodge, +2 monk, +2 ring, +2 Bracers)
HP 56 (+1 per level)
Movement 40
Attack +13 (1d6+7 damage +1d6 flaming(5 str, +2 enhancement)
Flurry +13/+13/+8/+8 (1d6+7 +1d6 flaming)
Stun DC 18
Fort:9 Ref:10 Will:12 (+2 enchantment)
Skills (40 to spend)
Feats
1st Toughness
Monk 1 (Dodge)
Monk 2 (Improved Grapple
3rd Weapon Focus (unarmed)
5th Power attack
Monk 6 Improved Disarm
7th Extra Ki
Equipment (16k gold)
Ring of protection +1 (2000)
Bracers of Armor +1 (1000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
Amulet of Mighty Fists (flaming) (5000)
Headband of inspired Wisdom (4000)
Belt of Physical Might (Dex/Str) +2 (10000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
500 Misc
Immune to all diseases.
Wholeness of Body
Ki Pool of 10
So basically another 10k in gold. I can't afford a higher AoMF since they cost 20k without giving up something else I need. I could get a swap out, but I don't think I would at this level. I also can't afford to add more wis without losing something (12k bump) so I just went with bumping defense to the cloak and bracers, repurchased my haversack and will leave 2k for misc potions, alternate weapons, etc...
Ciretose, are you paying for your enhancement bonus to the fists or is it inherent?
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Ciretose, are you paying for your enhancement bonus to the fists or is it inherent?
Sorry, it probably isn't clear since the solution changed from the OP.
At this point the proposal is to replace increasing unarmed damage with a straight enhancement bonus.
So at 4th level rather than going form 1d6 to 1d8, you just get a +1 enhancement bonus.
We are looking to see if this is enough of a boost, or if it would cause issues. The main concern so far seems to be if that makes the melee bonuses from AoMF overpowered.
So far, it seems fine, but I'm open to examples where problems might emerge (like the monk belt issue).
Ciretose, are you paying for your enhancement bonus to the fists or is it inherent?Sorry, it probably isn't clear since the solution changed from the OP.
At this point the proposal is to replace increasing unarmed damage with a straight enhancement bonus.
So at 4th level rather than going form 1d6 to 1d8, you just get a +1 enhancement bonus.
We are looking to see if this is enough of a boost, or if it would cause issues. The main concern so far seems to be if that makes the melee bonuses from AoMF overpowered.
So far, it seems fine, but I'm open to examples where problems might emerge (like the monk belt issue).
That...would kinda underpower the monk. As things stand with the rules now, they can get a +5 enhancement bonus and special weapon abilities now, between an AoMF, other magic items, and spell buffs. So by dropping their unarmed damage, they end up hitting more, but for far, far less than before. So while it helps them land more hits, and go through more DR, overall it is a very minor increase.
On a side note, you want me to see about building and statting up a monk using the ki pool idea I had?
The other thing mentioned was dropping to 3/4 BAB and using weapon training. With this as well as enhancement I think the monk's accuracy will go up and damage output will not be too bad.
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Ciretose, are you paying for your enhancement bonus to the fists or is it inherent?Sorry, it probably isn't clear since the solution changed from the OP.
At this point the proposal is to replace increasing unarmed damage with a straight enhancement bonus.
So at 4th level rather than going form 1d6 to 1d8, you just get a +1 enhancement bonus.
We are looking to see if this is enough of a boost, or if it would cause issues. The main concern so far seems to be if that makes the melee bonuses from AoMF overpowered.
So far, it seems fine, but I'm open to examples where problems might emerge (like the monk belt issue).
That...would kinda underpower the monk. As things stand with the rules now, they can get a +5 enhancement bonus and special weapon abilities now, between an AoMF, other magic items, and spell buffs. So by dropping their unarmed damage, they end up hitting more, but for far, far less than before. So while it helps them land more hits, and go through more DR, overall it is a very minor increase.
On a side note, you want me to see about building and statting up a monk using the ki pool idea I had?
Not so far. Keep in mind the damage will basically remain the same, as the dice increase on average is only 1.5.
On the other hand, AoMF doesn't require a +1 before you add enhancements. So as I'm showing in my build, I have a +1 and add 1d6 fire damage from the AoMF.
Feel free to post build outs of your ideas. I want this to be a thread where we discuss changes as being under or over powered. Kind of a testing ground for the Devs to look at rather than the derail the other threads became.
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The other thing mentioned was dropping to 3/4 BAB and using weapon training. With this as well as enhancement I think the monk's accuracy will go up and damage output will not be too bad.
Feel free to build it out, but I don't like it because it would then stack with enhancement bonus, which would stack with AoMF or Bodywraps and potentially open loopholes and exploits with multiclass.
But that is just my fear. Seeing it built out and if people can break it is a better test than my opinion :)
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Level 9 is so fine, it's so fine it'll blow your mind (not really, but want to mix it up...)
Str 20 (13) +1 4th +2 Belt
Dex 14 (2) +2 Belt
Con 12 (0) +2 Racial
Wis 19 (5) +2 Racial +2 Headband +1 8th
Int 10 (0)
Cha 8 (0) -2 Racial
AC 23 (2 dex, 4 Wisdom, +1 dodge, +2 monk, +2 ring, +2 Bracers)
HP 56 (+1 per level)
Init +6
Movement 50
Attack +13 (1d6+7 damage +2d6 Holy(5 str, +2 enhancement)
Flurry +14/+14/+9/+9 (1d6+7 +2d6 Holy)
Stun DC 18
Fort:9 Ref:10 Will:12 (+2 enchantment)
Skills (40 to spend)
Feats
1st Toughness
Monk 1 (Dodge)
Monk 2 (Improved Grapple
3rd Weapon Focus (unarmed)
5th Power attack
Monk 6 Improved Disarm
7th Extra Ki
9th Improved Initiative
Equipment (46k gold)
Ring of protection +1 (2000)
Bracers of Armor +2 (4000)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000)
Amulet of Mighty Fists (flaming) (20000)
Headband of inspired Wisdom (4000)
Belt of Physical Might (Dex/Str) +2 (10000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
500 Misc
Immune to all diseases.
Wholeness of Body
Improved evasion
Slow Fall 40
Ki Pool of 10
I have exactly enough gold to upgrade my AoMF to +2. I considered adding acid or ice, but I settled on Holy. So now my hands are +2 holy weapons.
Too much...we'll see.
The other thing mentioned was dropping to 3/4 BAB and using weapon training. With this as well as enhancement I think the monk's accuracy will go up and damage output will not be too bad.Feel free to build it out, but I don't like it because it would then stack with enhancement bonus, which would stack with AoMF or Bodywraps and potentially open loopholes and exploits with multiclass.
But that is just my fear. Seeing it built out and if people can break it is a better test than my opinion :)
Well look at it this way...at 20th level:
Attack bonus:
Monk in old system: max +18 to hit, +5 enhancement (AoMF), + ability mod.
Monk in proposed system: max +15 to hit, +4 weapon training, +5 enhancement (innate), + ability mod.
Difference, +1 to hit on the new system when flurrying, more in standard attacks (+4).
Damage output:
Monk in old system: 2d10 + 5 enhancement, + ability mod. Average = 16 + mod
Monk in proposed system: 1d6 +5 enhancement +4 weapon training, + ability mod. Average = 12.5 + mod.
Difference +3.5 in the old system.
So in my system for the mystic monk I allowed an increase in the threat range in order to compensate for LESS damage on average.
Want me to make some comparison builds?
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I was just thinking about the guidelines and wondering if we could come to consensus on a few benchmarks, relative to equal CR creatures in the bestiary for a “fixed” but not “broken” monk
1.Should be able to hit with a primary attack more than 50% but less than 75%
2.Stunning fist should work more than 10% but less that 25%
3.AC should be greater than the Bestiary averages (it is a melee class)
4.DPR should be greater than the average ¾ caster class wading into melee but less than the average Martial Class (we can discuss what these exact numbers are, but again, just looking for consensus)
5.All of this should be able to be accomplished unarmored and unarmed.
Agree on these guidelines? And are there any that need to be added. Emphasis on “Need” rather than “want.”
To me that looks reasonable, yes. We are looking at just combat in a fairly narrow focus for this. Certain aspects of fixes won't come into it.
I think 1 and 2 are needlessly restrictive.
Being able to hit more than 50% is good, capping it at 75% though..why? Being able to hit is only one small function of things, and an arbitrary cap on that won't tell you if a fix is broken or not enough, just that it has a certain hit %.
Same with #2, while stunning fists DC doesn't need to get out of hand, putting a cap on its DC seems wrong. It has limited uses per day, requires you to hit, and requires you to do damage, in addition to them failing a saving throw. Lets not penalize a concept just because it might make stunning fist better.
3 makes good sense, as a get in there and not hang back type, AC needs to be able to measure up without sacrificing to much offense/utility.
4 seems ok as long as we use an average fighter =) They being considered the gold standard and all.
5 is kinda the point I thought lol.
I could maybe see the point in adding something about leaving feat slots open. Depending on level, just to show what a non optimized build would do on average. If we are comparing them to averages, and standard anything, optimized examples won't illustrate as well any potential flaws or any potential brokenness.
As a side thing, do we want a stock, average fighter build at the various levels to use as a benchmark? And likewise, maybe pick a select few monsters of the appropriate CR so we have set benchmarks vs various critters and DR's?
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I think 1 and 2 are needlessly restrictive.
Being able to hit more than 50% is good, capping it at 75% though..why? Being able to hit is only one small function of things, and an arbitrary cap on that won't tell you if a fix is broken or not enough, just that it has a certain hit %.
Same with #2, while stunning fists DC doesn't need to get out of hand, putting a cap on its DC seems wrong. It has limited uses per day, requires you to hit, and requires you to do damage, in addition to them failing a saving throw. Lets not penalize a concept just because it might make stunning fist better.
3 makes good sense, as a get in there and not hang back type, AC needs to be able to measure up without sacrificing to much offense/utility.
4 seems ok as long as we use an average fighter =) They being considered the gold standard and all.
5 is kinda the point I thought lol.
I could maybe see the point in adding something about leaving feat slots open. Depending on level, just to show what a non optimized build would do on average. If we are comparing them to averages, and standard anything, optimized examples won't illustrate as well any potential flaws or any potential brokenness.
As a side thing, do we want a stock, average fighter build at the various levels to use as a benchmark? And likewise, maybe pick a select few monsters of the appropriate CR so we have set benchmarks vs various critters and DR's?
Remember the goal is to get above a certain level, but not so far above it becomes broken. I'm open to moving the 75% higher if the consensus is that number is too low, but if we start stepping on the toes of the martial with regards to attack bonus, we will be asking for more than we can get.
Similarly for #2 if you can stun more than 1 out of every 4 times you use it for an average opponent (it can be higher against low fort save and lower against high fort save), it becomes a bit overpowered when you consider it does damage on top of that, and at higher levels it is a death attack.
I'm open to discussion of where the cap should be, but having a bottom without a cap won't sell the Devs on taking the fixes seriously.
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As to the fighter, one thing I would like to see is people posting non-monk builds as markers of comparison.
Using reasonable rules, obviously. I think we all know what I am talking about when I say reasonable, so I am going assume no genie binding under "misc" expenses.
To make it simple, If in ain't in a Paizo published book, it ain't on the characters. Period, full stop.
Remember the goal is to get above a certain level, but not so far above it becomes broken. I'm open to moving the 75% higher if the consensus is that number is too low, but if we start stepping on the toes of the martial with regards to attack bonus, we will be asking for more than we can get.
At what point did the Monk stop being a martial class?
That alone is broken and needs fixing.|
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Remember the goal is to get above a certain level, but not so far above it becomes broken. I'm open to moving the 75% higher if the consensus is that number is too low, but if we start stepping on the toes of the martial with regards to attack bonus, we will be asking for more than we can get.
At what point did the Monk stop being a martial class?
That alone is broken and needs fixing.
When it didn't have full bab or d10 hit dice. Please, let's stay focused on looking at the proposed solutions and discussing them rather than derailing. Any comment on the power or lack of power in the suggestions or builds proposed.