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Gloves of Storing V.S. On-Command: Which has higher priority?


Rules Questions


5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

This may be a silly question (or it may not, it's up to you guys to decide regarding that), but I glanced over the Gloves of Storing description, and it raised a question that was kind of bothersome to me. (Yes, I know it's supposed to be only one glove as per its official title, but it seems silly that way.)

So let's begin by citing the Gloves of Storing description.

Gloves of Storing* wrote:
This device is a single leather glove*. On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. While stored, the item has negligible weight. With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the item is a free action. The item is shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Spell durations are not suppressed, but continue to expire. If the glove’s effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. A glove of storing uses up the wearer’s entire hands slot. The wearer may not use another item (even another glove of storing) that also uses the hands slot.

*:
Ironic, isn't it?

(Emphasis and other extras are mine)

Now then, let's look at the first two bolded parts, and the italicized part that I applied. Take note that when you store an item, it requires a command word to be spoken; when you try to retrieve an item stored in the gloves, you must perform a gesture with your hands.

Of course, both actions are listed as Free Actions, but you must also note the first part; it's an On-Command proc, usually requiring a word to activate, which means the person must speak.

When I ask this question, I don't do it out of cheese or anything, this is actually pure legit curiosity: Since speaking is a free action, but can be done outside your turn, could you actually store an item in your hand outside your turn since the action required to prompt the storage is classified as a Free action that can be done outside your turn (that is, speaking the Command Word)?

**Edit** If you have an official answer regarding this, please post it. If not, clicking the FAQ button on this post would be appreciated!


I never even noticed that. I will hit the FAQ button. Using a command word is a standard action, IIRC, so the rules seem to collide here.

Star Voter 2013

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The specific rules of the item (gloves of storing) override the general rules of item activation, but only that part of the general rules that they specifically address. You're still activating an item (an action that can only be done on your turn) but you're not paying a standard action to do it. If the glove had been intended to be used when it was not your turn, it would be specified as an immediate action or as a free action that can be done out of turn. Just because it uses speech does not make it the "speak out of turn" free action.


wraithstrike wrote:
I never even noticed that. I will hit the FAQ button. Using a command word is a standard action, IIRC, so the rules seem to collide here.

Not exactly. From p.184 from the CRB:

CRB Page 184: Actions in Combat wrote:

Many magic items don’t need to be activated. Certain magic items, however, do need to be activated, especially potions, scrolls, wands, rods, and staffs. Unless otherwise

noted, activating a magic item is a standard action.

Since the Gloves of Storing list storing or retrieving an item (i.e. the Command Word) as a Free Action, that overrides the Standard Action note.


SlimGauge wrote:
The specific rules of the item (gloves of storing) override the general rules of item activation, but only that part of the general rules that they specifically address. You're still activating an item (an action that can only be done on your turn) but you're not paying a standard action to do it. If the glove had been intended to be used when it was not your turn, it would be specified as an immediate action or as a free action that can be done out of turn. Just because it uses speech does not make it the "speak out of turn" free action.

RAI, it may not be that way (and chances are, they probably are not that way); at the same time, the RAW says storing a weapon is on-command. Generally, when an item activates on-command, it requires a word to be spoken by the bearer.

If that's all it takes to store a weapon, then I don't see the problem as to why it can't be done outside your turn when the RAW text allows it (that is, outside GM FIAT, of course).


It does not specifically says the command word is a free action. It says in one sentence it uses a command word. In another sentence it says use of the item is a free action. It never specifically says the gloves are allowed a rules exception*. I know that is a very pandemic reading, but it is what it is. I believe the intent is for the glove to work as a free action, but if someone were to argue otherwise they would have a valid point.

*Example:
"Unlike most other magic items the command word for the Gloves of Storing only takes a free action." <--That exception is not listed for this item.


If A leads to B, and B leads to C, what will A (eventually) lead to? The answer is C.

Now let's substitute variables.

If A (Using a command word) leads to B (Storing an item following the criteria), and B (Storing an item following the criteria) leads to C (Doing so as a Free Action), what will A (Using a command word) [eventually] lead to? The answer is C (Doing so as a Free Action).

If I am using a command word, using that command word stores an item in my hand that follows the proper criteria. If storing that item is a free action, then it backtracks to using the command word, meaning that using that command word is also a free action due to congruence.


No it doesn't not by a very literal reading. That is a case of reading into the rules that A leads to C which is a good way to do things since the rules are not perfect. As I said I agree that is RAI, but RAW does not give the command word a bypass in this case.

It could just as easily be a case there the dev wrote part of the item, went to lunch/sleep/etc, and then picked up where he left off. The item gets through editing, and here we are...


wraithstrike wrote:
No it doesn't not by a very literal reading. That is a case of reading into the rules that A leads to C which is a good way to do things since the rules are not perfect.

I'm glad you still agree with me regarding RAI, but I still don't see how I am wrong in terms of RAW.

It says the item in hand disappears on command. Unless you got telepathy (which is more-or-less the same as speaking, but wouldn't work since the Glove of Storing is not intelligent/sentient), you would have to speak something to get the item to activate. How else are you going to activate the item, especially considering there is no other methods to activate it?

It also says you can retrieve the item that was stored (through speaking the command) by snapping your fingers (while wearing the gloves, obviously). It goes on to say that storing an item (which requires a command word to be spoken), as well as retrieving an item (which requires a snapping of fingers, which can't be done outside your turn since it is not a form of speech), is classified as a free action, the same as speaking.

Speaking can be done outside your turn. Activating the item in question is a free action, but the first part requires a command word, which means speaking. Interesting; since standard speech is a free action and can be done outside your turn, and the item's activation is no more effort than a simple word (or two) of speech, I still don't see how speaking words other than the Command Word is allowable by the rules, yet when the activation of an item is of no different action consumption or effort to do than speaking outside your turn, it is not allowed.

Does that make any sense at all?

If I tell somebody to "Hide" or "Vanish" (which incidentally happens to be the command word of the weapon, and is all I have to do to activate the item), the DM is gonna step in and say "You can't say that outside your turn because you're wearing Gloves of Storing."?

What kind of logical call/ruling is that?


RAW you have to specifically be given permission to break a rule in order to do so.

Saying do X(which is normally a standard action), and then later saying you can _____ as a free action is not the same as saying X is now a free action. In short you need something specifically saying X is a free action.

The fact that we can read it and figure out intent does not make it RAW.

There is no sentence that says the command word is now allowed as a free action. There is a sentence saying the activation of one use of the item is a command word. There is another sentence saying the same use of the item is a free action. From those two sentences we can assume the intent is to use the command word as a free action, but nothing specifically says the command word is a free action in this case. That is why I used the example of a dev potentially walking off, and coming back to make the error.

RAW would have to make a direct connection between the command word itself and the free action.

As an example-->"You may use a command word to ____ as a free action."
That is the type of wording that allows you to break a rule because it is specifically saying the command word is a free action in this case.

In short if I have to extrapolate the meaning it is hard to say it is RAW.


I am feeling unusually stubborn with this. If somebody placed a Cursed Metagaming Artifact on me, can I get a Remove Curse scroll please?

Now then...I don't know if it's because I'm baffled (and/or ashamed) about it, or if I'm just not seeing it (or maybe I am and I may be ignorant about it; I don't think I am, but that's ignorance for you), but I still feel it's a little ridiculous that the ruling, by RAW, would go that way.

A command word requires you to do speak in order to activate it. Generally, an item's effort to activate its power is classified as a Standard Action, unless specified otherwise (as per the note regarding Magic Item Activation). However, the action for these Gloves to store an item (which requires you to speak a Command Word), and/or withdraw an item previously stored in it (which requires you to use a snapping of fingers), is classified in the Gloves' text as a free action.

Speaking can be done outside your turn. Any other item wouldn't activate outside your turn, since it takes a Standard Action for its power to take effect. This item is different, though. I still don't see how storing the item (which is done by speaking the proper word) can't be done outside the bearer's turn when the action it requires to activate (a Free Action) is done by Speaking, which can be done outside the turn.

Ironically enough, a better argument would be to say that the Free Action to speak isn't the same as the Item's Free Action it takes for its powers to function. I could also go ahead and say that the Free Action to speak is the Free Action needed to activate its power anyway, since that's all it takes for the item's power to work, but then we'd be getting nowhere.


It was never "otherwise specified" that the "command word" was a free action.

I had not even gotten to the argument of using the gloves outside of your turn yet, but I guess we should concentrate on that since we do agree on the RAI. :)

The command word is a free action, and it just happens to use speech. I don't think that is the same as speaking otherwise<----RAI

If you want to use the RAW argument though then you need a sentence that says explicitly the command word is now a free action. Once you do that the idea of using the gloves outside of our turn is in play by RAW. :)

In any event they need to specify that the free action to speak is only to be used on your turn if that is the RAI, which I think it is.


Nevermind, I think I get it now. You're saying that you must still spend a Standard Action to activate the Gloves since there is no statement saying the action to activate a Magic Item is changed, and that once you activate the gloves, you can either store an item or retrieve a previously stored item as a Free Action upon activation.

Makes perfect sense. Now I know these gloves are more useless than the Greater Bracers of Archery. 10,000 gold's worth of garbage I'm not spending my cash on.

Silver Crusade

Speaking a command word does not activate a (command word activated) magic item!

Sounds contradictory? Think it through!

Command Word wrote:-

'Activating a command word magic item is a standard action'

We should add, 'unless the item description defines a different action'.

Taking the normal, standard action activated magic item as an example, simply saying the magic word is not enough. You have to say the magic word and expend a standard action!

Don't believe me? Speaking is a free action which can be taken outside your turn. If the only thing you had to do is say the magic word then you could activate your scabbard of keen edges, move, draw your weapon as you move, attack, activate your Instant Fortress, unfold your Folding Boat, loose your Mask of the Skull, activate your armour's Glamour, trigger your wand of Fireball, etc. etc. etc. all in the same round!. You could even activate magic items outside your turn.

Expending the required action is just as integral to activating the item as speaking the command word!

In the case of command word activated magic items that only require a free action to activate (plus the magic word, of course), expending that free action is as integral to the activation as saying the magic word!

While saying a word is a free action that can be taken outside your own turn, the free action required to activate that kind of item is not an exception to the rule that free actions can only be taken on your own turn!

To break it down for you, activating Gloves of Storing requires two free actions; one to activate the item, and another to speak the command word. The free action to speak could be taken outside your turn, but the free item to activate the gloves could not.

For most command word activated items, it takes a free action to speak the magic word and a standard action to activate the item.

Looked at another way, the actual 'speaking the magic word' part is a non-action which is part of whatever action is used to activate the item.

If you still think just saying the word is enough, then Magic Mouth could activate these items. But they can't.


That was my RAW argument.

My RAI is that you can store or retrieve an item as a free action, but it has to be on your turn.

RAI breakdown-->Downgrading the command word to a free action does not mean it now counts as normal speech(usable outside of your turn). In other words all you did was reduce the time needed to use the command word to a free action instead of a standard action.

Silver Crusade

wraithstrike wrote:

That was my RAW argument.

My RAI is that you can store or retrieve an item as a free action, but it has to be on your turn.

RAI breakdown-->Downgrading the command word to a free action does not mean it now counts as normal speech(usable outside of your turn). In other words all you did was reduce the time needed to use the command word to a free action instead of a standard action.

Spot on!

Why couldn't I have stated it so succinctly?


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

That was my RAW argument.

My RAI is that you can store or retrieve an item as a free action, but it has to be on your turn.

RAI breakdown-->Downgrading the command word to a free action does not mean it now counts as normal speech(usable outside of your turn). In other words all you did was reduce the time needed to use the command word to a free action instead of a standard action.

Spot on!

Why couldn't I have stated it so succinctly?

I just don't like typing long post. :)


As I said in my previous post, I get it now. As it is, it's currently garbage. Best case scenario is that I get a free 5,000 gold for selling a piece of garbage.

Then again, this makes Metamagic Rods impossible to use as well as many others that I did not mention.

There are more holes in this system than I thought there were...

Silver Crusade

wraithstrike wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

That was my RAW argument.

My RAI is that you can store or retrieve an item as a free action, but it has to be on your turn.

RAI breakdown-->Downgrading the command word to a free action does not mean it now counts as normal speech(usable outside of your turn). In other words all you did was reduce the time needed to use the command word to a free action instead of a standard action.

Spot on!

Why couldn't I have stated it so succinctly?

I just don't like typing long post. :)

I must have the texting equivalent of 'verbal diarrhoea'.


Malachi I was just messing with you, but I do type posts that are too short at times, in my attempt to not type long posts. There have been too many times I could have ended a debate on the first page, and I did not due to my lack of words. Luckily this time it worked out. :)

Darksol, yeah the RAW is flawed at times, which is why I always urge people to use RAI instead. I would ask your GM to consider allowing you to use my RAI interpretation. Maybe he will let you trade in the greater gloves of archery for the gloves of storing, if he allows the RAI verison.


wraithstrike wrote:
Darksol, yeah the RAW is flawed at times, which is why I always urge people to use RAI instead. I would ask your GM to consider allowing you to use my RAI interpretation. Maybe he will let you trade in the greater gloves of archery for the gloves of storing, if he allows the RAI verison.

As noted in my opening post, I only made this thread out of curiosity. I don't have it planned with my character to use these gloves, and referenced the Greater Bracers of Archery in regards to how useless they are as per RAW, since many people claim the Greater Bracers of Archery are obsolete (and they have quite the case).

Silver Crusade

I don't see a dichotomy between RAI and RAW here!

Glove of Storing wrote:-

'...Storing or retrieving the item is a free action...'

The 'command word' part does not change this. These free actions can only be taken on your own turn, RAW and RAI.

Silver Crusade

BTW Darksol, when an item is shrunk to microscopic size in the glove, that hand is now free, at least until you snap your fingers!

That's why the item description says 'disappears', when later it says 'shrunk to microscopic size'.

In 3.0 a Glove of Storing cost 2200gp, and most of my characters had one. Since they were re-priced in 3.5 to 10,000gp, none of my characters has one! it's just too expensive; 2200 was about right.


I just realized "command word" is not anywhere in the instructions. I read the OP's paragraph and assumed the word "command word" was in the sentence.

Other items that require a command word use the specific term "command word"

Example:

Gem of Brightness wrote:

One command word causes the gem to shed light as a hooded lantern. This use of the gem does not expend any charges, and it continues to emit light until this command word is spoken a second time to extinguish the illumination.

Another command word causes the gem of brightness to send out a bright ray 1 foot in diameter and 50 feet long. This strikes as a ranged touch attack, and any creature struck by this beam is blinded for 1d4 rounds unless it makes a DC 14 Fortitude save. This use of the gem expends 1 charge.
The third command word causes the gem to flare in a blinding flash of light that fills a 30-foot cone. Although this glare lasts but a moment, any creature within the cone must make a DC 14 Fortitude save or be blinded for 1d4 rounds. This use expends 5 charges.
Mirror of Life Trapping wrote:

This crystal device is usually about 4 feet square and framed in metal or wood. The frame typically depicts dragons, demons, devils, genies, coiling nagas, or other powerful creatures that are well known for their magical powers. It can be hung or placed on a surface and then activated by giving a command word. The same command word deactivates the mirror. A mirror of life trapping has 15 extradimensional compartments within it. Any creature coming within 30 feet of the device and looking at its own reflection must make a DC 23 Will save or be trapped within the mirror in one of the cells. A creature not aware of the nature of the device always sees its own reflection. The probability of a creature seeing its reflection, and thus needing to make the saving throw, drops to 50% if the creature is aware that the mirror traps life and seeks to avoid looking at it (treat as a gaze attack).

When a creature is trapped, it is taken bodily into the mirror. Size is not a factor, but constructs and undead are not trapped, nor are inanimate objects and other nonliving matter. A victim's equipment (including clothing and anything being carried) remains behind. If the mirror's owner knows the right command word, he can call the reflection of any creature trapped within to its surface and engage his powerless prisoner in conversation. Another command word frees the trapped creature. Each pair of command words is specific to each prisoner.

Helm of Underwater Action wrote:
The wearer of this helmet can see underwater. Drawing the small lenses in compartments on either side into position before the wearer's eyes activates the visual properties of the helm, allowing her to see five times farther than water and light conditions would allow for normal human vision. (Weeds, obstructions, and the like block vision in the usual manner.) If the command word is spoken, the helm of underwater action gives the wearer a 30-foot swim speed and creates a globe of air around the wearer's head and maintains it until the command word is spoken again, enabling her to breathe freely.

RAW the gloves don't even use a command word and there is no general rule saying that a command is a command word. After all you can command constructs to do things, and they don't require a command word.

Quote:
A golem's creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet.

Well at least the RAW works with the RAI now. :)

Silver Crusade

Er...Wraithstrike...I hate to do this to you, but:-

' On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears.'

And Magic Items wrote:-

'Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it'

Still, no problem, because 'storing or retrieving the item is a free action', so there is no conflict between RAI and RAW.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Er...Wraithstrike...I hate to do this to you, but:-

' On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears.'

He's saying that "On command" is not the same as "When the Command Word is spoken," meaning that the command is the free action to snap your fingers, rather than a Command Word activation.

Given the large amount of items that say "On command" and use, by default, the Command Word standard action activation method, I'm not sure he's correct.

It still doesn't matter, because it's specifically a free action, and that action is not just speaking, so it can't be taken out of turn.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Er...Wraithstrike...I hate to do this to you, but:-

' On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears.'

And Magic Items wrote:-

'Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it'

Still, no problem, because 'storing or retrieving the item is a free action', so there is no conflict between RAI and RAW.

I am saying that "on command" does not equal "command word", not by RAW. If it does that book needs a lot of errata to maintain consistency.

"On command" does not require speech at all. If someone or something does something "at the snap of my fingers" it is on command.

After checking many items use the term "on command" while others use "command word" specifically.

Gloves of Storing wrote:
With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears.

The command in this case seems to be the "snap of the fingers", which is a very reasonable free action.

Even if command does equal command word then this applies.

Marathon Voter 2014

While you all argue over this, I'm going to go get one of these for my Alchemist and giggle while I make potions appear and disappear with delicious free actions.


We actually agree on what the rules intentions are. We are just debating RAW for the sake of debating now. There is just some friendly back and forth going on.

Our consensus is here.

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