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This isn't a rules question, as the rules are quite clear on this. But it may end up there anyways :)
Can a human with the Racial Heritage feat take levels in an archetype that requires you to be of a specific race?
Yes, the Racial Heritage feat allows you to qualify for archetypes that have the chosen race as a requirement, assuming you still meet all of the other requirements to take levels in the archetype.
—Jason Bulmahn, 07/27/12
Ok, so we can take racial archetypes. Great!
Edit: As rightly pointed out, originally this had the rules for 2nd level and above. Here are the rules for character creation: You can see Starbuck_II's post for the original content.
Rules for creating a character.
Step 3—Pick Your Class: A character's class represents a profession, such as fighter or wizard. If this is a new character, he starts at 1st level in his chosen class. As he gains experience points (XP) for defeating monsters, he goes up in level, granting him new powers and abilities.
Step 4—Pick Skills and Select Feats: Determine the number of skill ranks possessed by your character, based on his class and Intelligence modifier (and any other bonuses, such as the bonus received by humans). Then spend these ranks on skills, but remember that you cannot have more ranks than your level in any one skill (for a starting character, this is usually one). After skills, determine how many feats your character receives, based on his class and level, and select them from those presented in Feats.
So, you always pick your class first, and then your feats.
Archetypes are modifications of classes. You may choose an archetype so long as it hasn't altered/modified/glanced-knowingly-while-waggling-its-eyebrows-at any class features you possess.
Since Racial Heritage is a feat and you must select the class first, you will receive the first level abilities before you get the feat, meaning you cannot use Racial Heritage to acquire a racial archetype that isn't of your race that modifies a first level ability.
Just a heads up :)
That rule is for adding a class not character creation.
I do not have my book on hand but will look it up tonight.
This isn't a rules question, as the rules are quite clear on this. But it may end up there anyways :)
Can a human with the Racial Heritage feat take levels in an archetype that requires you to be of a specific race?
Yes, the Racial Heritage feat allows you to qualify for archetypes that have the chosen race as a requirement, assuming you still meet all of the other requirements to take levels in the archetype.
—Jason Bulmahn, 07/27/12
Ok, so we can take racial archetypes. Great!
Now the rules for adding levels.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.Emphasis mine.
So, you always pick your class first, and then your feats.
Archetypes are modifications of classes. You may choose an archetype so long as it hasn't altered/modified/glanced-knowingly-while-waggling-its-eyebrows-at any class features you possess.
Since Racial Heritage is a feat and you must select the class first, you will receive the first level abilities before you get the feat, meaning you cannot use Racial Heritage to acquire a racial archetype that isn't of your race that modifies a first level ability.
Just a heads up :)
I read it:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.So it sounds like this is only 2nd level and higher.
I thought you might be on to something, but then checked those rules.
Here are the rules for character creation:
Step 3—Pick Your Class: A character's class represents a profession, such as fighter or wizard. If this is a new character, he starts at 1st level in his chosen class. As he gains experience points (XP) for defeating monsters, he goes up in level, granting him new powers and abilities.
Step 4—Pick Skills and Select Feats: Determine the number of skill ranks possessed by your character, based on his class and Intelligence modifier (and any other bonuses, such as the bonus received by humans). Then spend these ranks on skills, but remember that you cannot have more ranks than your level in any one skill (for a starting character, this is usually one). After skills, determine how many feats your character receives, based on his class and level, and select them from those presented in Feats.
So you still select them in the same order, meaning you still can't use Racial Heritage to take archetypes which modify first level abilities.
So you still select them in the same order, meaning you still can't use Racial Heritage to take archetypes which modify first level abilities.
Maybe you can't, but I can.
So you still select them in the same order, meaning you still can't use Racial Heritage to take archetypes which modify first level abilities.Maybe you can't, but I can.
I was going to mention that this is mainly a problem for PFS, since I'd imagine this could be a fairly common house rule amongst people who know racial heritage lets you do that, but decided to let someone else make that point :)
I was going to mention that this is mainly a problem for PFS, since I'd imagine this could be a fairly common house rule amongst people who know racial heritage lets you do that, but decided to let someone else make that point :)So you still select them in the same order, meaning you still can't use Racial Heritage to take archetypes which modify first level abilities.Maybe you can't, but I can.
In that case, a player can make a fuss at the table by claiming the following:
Step 2 - Pick your race: "Next, pick your character's race, noting any modifiers to your ability scores and any other racial traits"
As the human bonus feat is a racial trait, we might choose it before choosing the class at step 3.
At step 4, the skill part specifically mention the human bonus skill point as a part thereof. The feat portion does not specify that feats from races are chosen at that step.
Now that's an interesting point that I hadn't thought through fully. Hmm.
However, that would mean that they couldn't take any feats that had Skill prerequisites, class prerequisites, class ability prerequisites, Base Attack Bonus prerequisites, or...anything but feats with Human as a prerequisite, ability scores, or nothing as a prerequisite, I think. You have nothing but ability scores and a race at this point.
That would severely reduce the usefulness of the human bonus feat, but I suppose it would allow you to use racial heritage to get an archetype that modifies a first level ability.
So, for that reason I think you still use the human bonus feat when you select the feats normally.
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I saw character creation as effectively happening all at once. The list of what you choose is just that, a list, not a sequential order of operations that must be followed and that has significant bearing upon the rest of the creation process. This whole concept that it is an order of operation seems like you're taking things a bit more literally than intended.
If you read the steps, it's clear they meant it to be a order of operations. Skills go before feats (so that you can qualify for feats the same level you get those ranks, if the feat requires ranks), class goes before equipment (so you determine your starting GP correctly), Class goes before skills (so you know which skills are class skills), etc.
To fix this to make the feat allow for that, although the concept of racial archetypes isn't even in the APG so it'd be a bit weird and Paizo doesn't really update older books to support newer books, they could just add a line that explicitly says you get to choose your racial heritage at the step 2 of the creation rules, or something to that effect.
Just an amusing bit of pedantry.
you can still do it, you just need to multi-class into this class whose racial archetype you like.
you take the racial heritage before, and thus you have it to qualify for the class later.
i don't really see a problem with that, if each and every option isn't maximally combinable for no pain.
that seems to be paizo's approach to alot of game design as well...
don't cry because you want what Johnny has, you already have your dose of Special.
Well, the concept of archetypes isn't in the steps either, so it's not clear where they get chosen. If you want to be truly pedantic, since you obviously can't choose an archetype until you've picked a class and once you've got a class you have the first level abilities before you pick the archetype, meaning you can never choose an archetype which replaces 1st level abilities.
It is an amusing bit of pedantry, as long as no one actually takes it seriously.
Actually, the rules specify that when you choose a class, you must choose either the standard version or the archetype's version. So that argument doesn't hold water. No clue how that interacts with selecting an archetype after first level, but perhaps that's not actually listed as a rule anywhere and is just a suggested houserule.
Still, by the rules as written, the premise of this thread still holds. I'd love to see more rules-based arguments for if it doesn't though.
Multiclassing exists, and see my above comment about that not being a rules-based statement, but rather a suggested houserule.
The feat was obviously useful enough to exist before racial archetypes existed. So no comments about "nerfing" Racial heritage or anything to that effect, thanks :)
That might qualify under Adapting Existing Players, might not.
This is much akin to taking Racial Heritage at 3rd level and not being able to take an archetype that replaces a 1st level class feature. In both cases, you got the feat after the class ability was set in stone.
The strict ordering of the way you create / level up a character is what allows for quite a few things though. What are the differences between those rules, like choosing class before skills and skills before feats, that make those rules valid, but these ones invalid? I'm not seeing any difference, but I think you do, so some illumination would be awesome
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This is absurd. Character Creation is just a outline.
I mean come on it's in list form for the aid of new players to the game.
Advancing a character, which is a process that is extremely close to character creation, explicitly states that you do it in order and says it's very similar to the character creation step-by-step process.
What the rules do say is that you use the steps, which the common language meaning is the sequential order. You get your ability scores first. Then you pick a race. Then a class. Then skills, using your class skill list. Then feats which may or may not require ranks in skills, certain class abilities that you now have thanks to choosing classes and skills before feats. Then you buy equipment, using your class-specific starting gold pieces. Then you do finishing details. Note that the language of the last step in the sequence says that you determine all those numbers based on previous steps. If there's no order, then "previous steps" is a stupid phrase to use.
If this is wrong, I highly, highly doubt it's for that reason.
A much more likely reason for this to be wrong is that the devs intended this new use of the feat to bypass the rule, but didn't write it into text.
Flagged to be moved to rules questions.
Advancing a character, which is a process that is extremely close to character creation, explicitly states that you do it in order and says it's very similar to the character creation step-by-step process.
What the rules do say is that you use the steps, which the common language meaning is the sequential order. You get your ability scores first. Then you pick a race. Then a class. Then skills, using your class skill list. Then feats which may or may not require ranks in skills, certain class abilities that you now have thanks to choosing classes and skills before feats. Then you buy equipment, using your class-specific starting gold pieces. Then you do finishing details. Note that the language of the last step in the sequence says that you determine all those numbers based on previous steps. If there's no order, then "previous steps" is a stupid phrase to use.
If this is wrong, I highly, highly doubt it's for that reason.
A much more likely reason for this to be wrong is that the devs intended this new use of the feat to bypass the rule, but didn't write it into text.
How is Advancing a Character being similar to Character Creation a basis for them to work exactly the same way?
That's like saying Power Attack and Deadly Aim are close enough, i guess i get a bonus for using Deadly Aim with a two-handed ranged weapon.
It either is or it isn't. Anything else is just an opinion.
Brain In A Jar:
The process of advancing a character works in much the same way as generating a character, except that your ability scores, race, and previous choices concerning class, skills, and feats cannot be changed.
Stepping back for the night to get a more clear head. Debates tend to polarize me.
Brain In A Jar:The process of advancing a character works in much the same way as generating a character, except that your ability scores, race, and previous choices concerning class, skills, and feats cannot be changed.Stepping back for the night to get a more clear head. Debates tend to polarize me.
"works in much the same way as generating a character"
All that means is that they are similar, not the same. Where in Character Creation does it mention the following?
"When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses."
That's not even the same order as you think it is. Skills and Feats are lumped into the same step.
The fact is Character Creation is a outline and doesn't mention that you have to follow any set steps. Advancing a Character does.
That doesn't make them work the same way just because they are similar.