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Now, bear with me here... could a paladin enter the Gray Gardener prestige class? Assuming, of course, that they never knowing executed an innocent(and probably came from somewhere other than Galt)?
The prestige class doesn't have any alignment restrictions or requirements, and Pathfinder allows for combinations like rogue/paladin now that the multi classing restriction has been lifted from paladins... is there a consensus?
Theoretically, they can. The problem seems to be that some DMs and people see the "judge, jury and executioner" types as evil. Also, going around Intimidating folks might not fit the Paladin's creed, depending on what deity he or she worships. If your character is a Paladin of Shelyn, it would not fly. However, if the character worships Torag or Iomedae, I can see it happening.
The lack of comments here is rather odd. I want to see more people discussing this, and I bet that the OP does as well.
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Now, bear with me here... could a paladin enter the Gray Gardener prestige class? Assuming, of course, that they never knowing executed an innocent(and probably came from somewhere other than Galt)?
The prestige class doesn't have any alignment restrictions or requirements, and Pathfinder allows for combinations like rogue/paladin now that the multi classing restriction has been lifted from paladins... is there a consensus?
Though the prestige class was obviously written to be used by an Inquisitor, I see no reason that a Paladin couldn't qualify, as long as they keep their code of conduct in mind. Personally, though, I wouldn't go Paladin for this because of the spellcasting. Gaining additional levels in spellcasting is going to be more useful for an Inquisitor, or even moreso a Cleric. What you COULD do, though, is get 3 levels of Cleric to get the 2nd-level spellcasting, then take a few levels of Paladin to get BAB and smite, and then go into Grey Gardener, increasing Cleric spellcasting instead.
If it were evil, then the Gray Gardener would require the "Any Non-Good" entry prerequisite, which they do NOT have. Paladins trapping the souls of fiends into their weapons (or Final Blades) also seems more effective when it comes to fighting fiends, especially if said fiend is a Rakshasa or Devil who will just respawn a few years later after being normally defeated. The class write-up actually seems rather setting neutral despite the fact that they are heavily tied to Galt as a location.
Galt is a Chaotic Neutral nation, not a Chaotic Evil one.
Also, RAW states that a Paladin that willfully commits an evil act loses his powers.
It says nothing about a Paladin having to go chaotic for the greater good every once in a while losing anything.
A Paladin who doesn't abandon his ethos and morality would most likely wind up as a victim of Galt's Final Blades than a wielder of them.
That's up for the DM to say. Paladins do have high Charisma, which is the main weapon that Galt's leaders use to keep the populace in check.
There are no Grey Gardeners outside of Galt.
How would this be rationalized outside of the country?
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Flavor-wise I don't think the Pallys and Gray Gardeners line up very well. A lot of people who up on the chopping blocks of Galt most likely may be there for political reasons which may conflict with the Paladin's code to help those in need and innocents.
The whole "for the greater good" argument is a slippery slope too. What if the execution of one otherwise innocent political rival could prevent a conflict that would result in the deaths of many? For me Paladins need to rise above a "the ends justify the means" mentality.
I think Paladins should not be lacking in common sense.
@BltzKrg22: Who said everyone is playing the game on Golarion?
So i was looking at this class as a future option for my inquisitor, am I correct in reading that since "harsh judgement" is named differently than "judgement" a Inq5/GG2 would get 2 judgement and 1 harsh judgement per day?
Im trying to figure out if there is just a lot of ability overlap to let other classes get Inquisitor abilities or if it gives my Inquisitor more of the same abilities (ie, is 2 levels of GG actually better for me than just staying with Inquisitor for those 2 levels)?
For example, the Inq5/GG2 above gets 2 judgements and 1 harsh judgement....but an Inq7 gets 3 judgements so its no different (and he can take Precise Strike free @ 6th to get the 1d6 sneeak damage).
thoughts?
Well if not on Golarian, why would there be Grey Gardeners?
The question still stands...
You can put them in your own setting, you know? The lack of imagination is almost frightening.
Even if it's in Golarion, the Gray Gardener could be out hunting criminals that escaped Galt justice. Or you know, out adventuring for the recreation time, because even they have lives outside of state-sanctioned work.
Another option would be that it's someone who learned the arts but decided he ain't gonna follow the Revolutionary Council's antics. You know, starts out as a Paladin, joins the Gray Gardeners for a time but then decides he'd rather make use of his skills elsewhere. I doubt the other members of the organization would take risks to chase him very far. Galt doesn't even bother to go kill the "traitors" in Gralton, a River Kingdom just north of Galt which is filled with people the folks at Galt want dead. He might need to atone once or twice in the process though.
You can put them in your own setting, you know? The lack of imagination is almost frightening.
Don't be a jackmonkey about it.
I'm all for reskinning a thing and I'm not saying you can't, I am asking why/how.
The point of the Prestige class is to be a Grey Gardener. Unless you have a Galt like country, the flavor of it makes no sense.
Another option would be that it's someone who learned the arts but decided he ain't gonna follow the Revolutionary Council's antics. You know, starts out as a Paladin, joins the Gray Gardeners for a time but then decides he'd rather make use of his skills elsewhere. I doubt the other members of the organization would take risks to chase him very far. Galt doesn't even bother to go kill the "traitors" in Gralton, a River Kingdom just north of Galt which is filled with people the folks at Galt want dead. He might need to atone once or twice in the process though.The only reason Galt hasn't made a concerted move against Gralton, is that they're too busy suspecting each other of treason. To have become a Gray Gardener is only a shade above the process of becoming an Assassin. You're required to kill someone you're told to execute without regard to their actual guilt or innocence. You've got to be pretty grey in your morality to do so, you're simply not Good enough to be a Paladin at that point.
It's not a bad route for Fallen Paladins to go though.
If you're going to use the Assassin as the example for someone evil, I can't say I would bother coming up with a counter for that. If you had said something like a "fiend-worshipping assassin" or "an evil inquisitor working for Galt" I might have taken your argument a bit more seriously. And like I said, character development could make the process legal. Paladin enters the gray area once he qualifies for the Prestige Class, realizes that he's been going against the code of conduct, atones and leaves off, retaining his skills as a Gray Gardener in the process.
You can put them in your own setting, you know? The lack of imagination is almost frightening.Don't be a jackmonkey about it.
I'm all for reskinning a thing and I'm not saying you can't, I am asking why/how.
The point of the Prestige class is to be a Grey Gardener. Unless you have a Galt like country, the flavor of it makes no sense.
Don't be so serious on the internet, it makes you look bad :3
How are cunning and slightly brutal executioners out of place in any setting? You don't have to have a carbon copy of Galt to include those, when they fit into Cheliax-esque tyrannies and other such places just as well, given the nature of their job and the attitude of the people they work for. Do I need to use the word imagination again to prove a point? Besides, limiting the prestige class to GALT ONLY really limits the amount of character concepts one could create, which also kinda defeats the purpose of having a prestige class made primarily for players (and the DM) to use.
I'm more inclined to believe Icyshadow's explanation, since I would expect most Gray Gardeners would be of the opinion that they have to keep at it, the end of the revolution and the start of a stable government is just around the corner. Unless they don't believe in the cause, then they'd stick around because they are literally getting away with murder.
There are no real alignment restrictions on the Gray Gardener class itself, so their own alignments most likely vary quite a bit.
And that's a rather interesting thing to mention, wolfman. Galt is not in a static, timeless state, and I'm pretty sure some people there wished for more stable time after all the chaos and bloodshed there. Who could want that more than the law enforcement of sorts that can still safely run around in the country at large while everyone else ends up beheaded, suspected of treachery or actually being treacherous?
You could phrase it like that, even though I just realized that the whole "Paladins cannot really be Hellknights" thing doesn't hold water upon closer analysis, considering Hellknights are strongly Lawful NEUTRAL and not Lawful EVIL. Paladins lose their powers for committing evil, which is not mandatory for a Hellknight. This does depend on the Order of the Hellknight, though. The easiest way to play a Paladin Hellknight is joining the Order of the Scourge, Godclaw, Nail, Scar or Pike. None of them require a person to do questionable things, unlike the Order of the Rack or the Chain.
Those unfamiliar with the Hellknight Orders can check them here.
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Yeah, HK Paladins are perfectly legal and confirmed in canon, BUT I believe that being part of organization that on the whole is seen as panzer fascist devil summoning judge dredd police might give Paladin a grievance or two, when people see him/her as a dreadful enforcer instead of a shining knight.
All the more opportunities for rp'ing material from that, alas.
Judge Dredd leans strongly to Lawful Good as a person. True story, bro.
My personal problem with Grey Gardner Paladins is that the Grey Gardeners (& the Final Blades) really seem to be the only other constant in Galt besides the perpetual chaos & blood shed. Which leads me to suspect the organization overall as having some manner of investment in the 'status quo', with in this case, the 'status quo' being perpetual chaos & bloodshed.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the Grey Gardeners have always seemed more 'part of the problem' in Galt rather than 'part of the solution' as-it-were.
edit: & I gotta agree with Gorbacz regarding Judge Dredd.
There are no Grey Gardeners outside of Galt.
How would this be rationalized outside of the country?
A campaign not set in Golarion, obviously.
You could easily say that Grey Gardeners are found in lots of different places, rather than just one city that doesn't exist in the setting anyway.
I know he is not the main thing of this thread, but I'd be willing to debate Dredd's alignment (since he is being used as the example of what a Hellknight is like), considering the setting (I recall it being a canon statement that the whole nation would fall if the Judges were not there to keep things running smoothly) as well as a few quotes found from the comic itself, this included as one that hit home for me.
"Dredd: When someone calls on the Law for help...be he mutie...alien...cyborg...or human...the Law cannot turn a blind eye! AND I AM THE LAW!"
That sounds pretty Lawful Good to me, what with being undiscriminating with the help. And Irnk, I can see that it's really a matter of interpretation. You have yours, I have mine. However, I do think that we might actually need to ask James Jacobs about the usefulness of the Gray Gardeners as a measure of keeping order in Galt now that you mentioned it. Personally, I'd rather keep them ambiguous or having their own motives as individuals, since that means they'd have at least some depth as people/characters and it doesn't bring with it any alignment restrictions that the prestige class itself really does not need, as I might have stated earlier.
I know he is not the main thing of this thread, but I'd be willing to debate Dredd's alignment (since he is being used as the example of what a Hellknight is like), considering the setting (I recall it being a canon statement that the whole nation would fall if the Judges were not there to keep things running smoothly) as well as a few quotes found from the comic itself, this included as one that hit home for me.
"Dredd: When someone calls on the Law for help...be he mutie...alien...cyborg...or human...the Law cannot turn a blind eye! AND I AM THE LAW!"
That sounds pretty Lawful Good to me...
Depends on Dredd's age I think.
io9 blog recently put up a list of the best Dredd storylines. In his younger days, like during times like the Demcracy storyline, where he's putting down protestors because that's his job as a Judge, he seems more LN.
When he's older he becomes even more jaded (I know, crazy) and feels that the Judge system isn't all that great and even took up the cause for mutant rights, it might go either way on LG (helping the little, oppressed guy) and LN (everyone gets rights, even if they are crappy).