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Toothy Beast Totem Half-Orc = broken build?


Advice


I've been toying with making a character that looks like this:

Half-Orc (Toothy) - natural primary bite attack
Barbarian (Beast Totem) - two natural primary claw attacks
20 point buy: strength 20, dexterity 14, constitution 14, intelligence 7, wisdom 11, charisma 7

Taking power attack as his first feat, at second level using PA while raging he gets 3 attacks all with +8 bonus that do 1d4+9 damage each. I'll take the Berserker of the Society trait to make sure I have enough rage per day, and this seems rather unstoppable.

Am I missing something, or is this build really that good? Add Weapon Focus (claws) at third level, Elemental Rage at fourth, maybe Improved Natural Attack at fifth, and once per rage you get two +12 attacks for 1d6+1d6(any energy)+9 and one +11 attack for 1d4+1d6(any energy)+9.

I'm new to optimizing, but this DPR seems almost too good to be true.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Feral Combat Training and Dragon Style will pump this.

Qadira

My samurai's horse gets 3 primary attacks on a hi strength body in addition to my samurai Two handed power attack.

I think it is definetly a power house, but not over done.

Suggestions: scent, super useful at finding concealed or invisible foes, and makes tracking super easy. And is fun to RP


Yes that sounds awesome.

It also sounds like a well placed dominate person or a ghost possesing this character means death to the rest of the party.

Go for it!


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Actually, you can just take the Tusked race trait for that bite.

You can do this as a Human, take the Racial Heritage(Kobold) feat, pick up the Tail Terror feat for a tail slap, the Adopted and Tusked traits for the Bite.

Qadira

Lochmonster wrote:

Yes that sounds awesome.

It also sounds like a well placed dominate person or a ghost possesing this character means death to the rest of the party.

Go for it!

That seems to be an unreasonable encounter for level 1 characters. Is it from a paizo scenario?


Doesn't the 1/2 orc count as human? Can't they take a human racial Heritage and be a 1/2 orc?

A player in a home game I am also in has done something akin to this but I don't know all the specifics. They are part orc, human and goblin and also a biter.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Actually, you can just take the Tusked race trait for that bite.

You can do this as a Human, take the Racial Heritage(Kobold) feat, pick up the Tail Terror feat for a tail slap, the Adopted and Tusked traits for the Bite.

Toothy is much better - Tusked is a secondary attack (-5 attack bonus and half strength mod) whereas Toothy is primary (full bonus and full strength.)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

No, half-orcs and half-elfs do not count as humans for the purposes of meeting prerequisites. Spells and effects only. Feats are not effects.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
RumpinRufus wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Actually, you can just take the Tusked race trait for that bite.

You can do this as a Human, take the Racial Heritage(Kobold) feat, pick up the Tail Terror feat for a tail slap, the Adopted and Tusked traits for the Bite.

Toothy is much better - Tusked is a secondary attack (-5 attack bonus and half strength mod) whereas Toothy is primary (full bonus and full strength.)

No, the bite from Tusked is only secondary when used in a full attack with manufactured weapons.

Bites are primary attacks.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Actually, you can just take the Tusked race trait for that bite.

You can do this as a Human, take the Racial Heritage(Kobold) feat, pick up the Tail Terror feat for a tail slap, the Adopted and Tusked traits for the Bite.

Toothy is much better - Tusked is a secondary attack (-5 attack bonus and half strength mod) whereas Toothy is primary (full bonus and full strength.)

No, the bite from Tusked is only secondary when used in a full attack with manufactured weapons.

Bites are primary attacks.

Hmmm, I can't find the actual source for Tusked but here's the text that I found:

Quote:
Tusked: Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.

So, it definitely gets a -5 on full attacks but maybe it still gets full strength mod?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It is just text assuming you are attacking with weapons as well. This is why they call out full attacks.
It is never referred to as a secondary attack, and by default, bites are primary.

I admit the language of the trait sucks.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Feral Combat Training and Dragon Style will pump this.

This would be a heavy feat sink for the already feat starved barbarian. Weapon Focus and IUS would be largely useless. You also have to go through the pain on enhancing your weapons with an amulet of mighty fists which is overpriced.

This build will be great in the lower levels but once you get to high level play i think you will find that Manufactured weapons will do better damage overall with cheaper enhancements and better crit ranges, and will have an easier time overcoming DR.


A 1st it's good. But doesn't level well since amulet of mighty fists is damn expensive


I was going to make a thread about this too, only I wasn't going to ask if it was broken, I was going to ask how to keep it strong at higher levels. The toothy half-orc beast totem barbarian I'm playing is also multi-classed into oracle so I think I might have problems pretty soon. But it's been great so far.


RumpinRufus wrote:

I've been toying with making a character that looks like this:

Half-Orc (Toothy) - natural primary bite attack
Barbarian (Beast Totem) - two natural primary claw attacks
20 point buy: strength 20, dexterity 14, constitution 14, intelligence 7, wisdom 11, charisma 7

Taking power attack as his first feat, at second level using PA while raging he gets 3 attacks all with +8 bonus that do 1d4+9 damage each. I'll take the Berserker of the Society trait to make sure I have enough rage per day, and this seems rather unstoppable.

Am I missing something, or is this build really that good? Add Weapon Focus (claws) at third level, Elemental Rage at fourth, maybe Improved Natural Attack at fifth, and once per rage you get two +12 attacks for 1d6+1d6(any energy)+9 and one +11 attack for 1d4+1d6(any energy)+9.

I'm new to optimizing, but this DPR seems almost too good to be true.

Wouldn't the claws actually be 1d6 instead of 1d4? Other than that... yup, looks good to me. :)

I don't want pop your balloon because I realize this is just for optimization... but just remember that those numbers are pretty situational and you sacrificing other areas to get there...

* You will have terrible AC while raging... even a commoner would have no trouble hitting you

* You will likely become the primary target of your party, and since you're already suffering from terrible AC, you should be very careful with your ~27 HP (even less when rage is over...)

* You only get this for 9 rounds per day (pretty good at level 2)

* You only get the full benefit if you are able to make a full attack (AKA you don't take more than a 5-foot step). Otherwise, you still only get 1 attack...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Isn't there a pounce-like rage power?


Sinatar wrote:

Wouldn't the claws actually be 1d6 instead of 1d4? Other than that... yup, looks good to me. :)

I don't want pop your balloon because I realize this is just for optimization... but just remember that those numbers are pretty situational and you sacrificing other areas to get there...

* You will have terrible AC while raging... even a commoner would have no trouble hitting you

* You will likely become the primary target of your party, and since you're already suffering from terrible AC, you should be very careful with your ~27 HP (even less when rage is over...)

* You only get this for 9 rounds per day (pretty good at level 2)

* You only get the full benefit if you are able to make a full attack (AKA you don't take more than a 5-foot step). Otherwise, you still only get 1 attack...

Good points. You're right about it being 1d6, I had originally built it as a ranger with Aspect of the Beast, that's probably where I got the 1d4.

AC will be a problem, but I can probably spare some attack bonus to fight defensively.

When not raging or making a full attack, I was thinking an earthbreaker might be a good option that doesn't lose too much flavor.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
SmiloDan wrote:
Isn't there a pounce-like rage power?

Yes but you have to be Barb 10 and take 2 rage powers beforehand to qualify for it.


SmiloDan wrote:
Isn't there a pounce-like rage power?

Yup, Greater Beast Totem (kicks in at level 10) which also increases claws to 1d8 and x3 crit.


SmiloDan wrote:
Isn't there a pounce-like rage power?

My beast-totem barb uses the oracle revelation surprising charge to move and get off a full-attack, but it's only once per day right now.

Andoran

I have had a Half-Orc Ranger/Barbarian with 4 primary natural attacks(3 when not raging) and never had any real issues with the build. The biggest limiting factor for the build is it requires an Amulet of Mighty Fists to really work out which is expensive and takes away the option for Amulet of Natural Armor.

Build details:

Half-orc with the Toothy racial trait for a bite attack
2 levels of Ranger to get natural weapons combat style for Aspect of the Beast which provides two claw attacks
x levels of barbarian and pick up fiend totem for a gore attack


Nipin wrote:
I have had a Half-Orc Ranger/Barbarian with 4 primary natural attacks(3 when not raging) and never had any real issues with the build. The biggest limiting factor for the build is it requires an Amulet of Mighty Fists to really work out which is expensive and takes away the option for Amulet of Natural Armor.

I considered this but was under the impression that gore doesn't stack with bite, because both are head-based attacks. But, I never found a citation...

Sinatar wrote:
* You will have terrible AC while raging... even a commoner would have no trouble hitting you

Coming back to this, maybe I should take the Armored Hulk archetype? And maybe the Linebreaker trait to add 20 ft. to my charges.


@ Nipin, Rumpin Rufus

I believe that the Gargoyle has all of those attacks and can use all of them in it's attack routine.

I'm currently playing a toothy 1/2 orc Urban totem warrior Barb 1/ Ninja 1. The plan is at 3rd level, take another barb level, snag the beast totem rage power, blow the 3rd lv. feat on extra rage power and pick up lesser fiend totem (1d8 gore attack yay!) and continue ninja forever after.

The thing that I'm seeing as a big strength on this concept seems to be generally seen as a weakness - the amulet of mighty fists vs. weapon enchants. Sure, the AoMF is pricey, but the character gets full str damage on all attacks, doesn't suffer from TWF penalties, and, while there are no iteratives, there also are no iterative penalties. to get 4 attacks regularly, you've got to have TWF, ITWF and BAB+6. you don't even get a 5th attack until +11 BAB, when you'd also qualify for a 6th attack with GTWF. However, all of those attacks are at -2, right off the bat. Further, you've got to have a decently high dex and double slice just to get the full damage and qualify for the feats. So, that attack routine is -2/-2/-7/-7 for the 4 manufactured weapons, as compared to the natural attacks. By the time one could purchase two +2 weapons, I could almost have that +2 AMOF. Certainly by the time +3 weapons are had. Even to mid-high levels, the attack bonus is comparable to a manufactured weapon fighter using his first attacks. Maybe at really high lv, he'll lag behind, but not by that much, and he's a real nasty killer from lv.1 on up.


Broken? No. Over-cheese? Ugh.... somewhat..

Silver Crusade

It's ok...Until you run into anything with DR, and then you are going to be worthless, have fun against a Golem. Also if you're kewel with having no participation outside of combat because you have the emotional intelligence of a 3 year old. Go for it!


You'll never know the sweetness of rolling the extra 2d6 from elf-bane.


Cool build idea.


Playing a very similar build for RotR campaign currently and having a blast, although I've gone the aforementioned Ranger-Aspect of the Beast route to have the claws available at all times and not just while raging.

It DOES seem very powerful (currently at third level) however as pointed out above the output quite likely will diminish in later levels and when facing DR and the like.

But...just because you have claws doesn't mean you don't know how to pick up a keen falchion and go to town. It's not an all or nothing build here - just pick the tools appropriate at the time.

I'd highly suggest the Invulnerable Rager archetype for this build though. I'm usually the focus of a lot of attention once I get going and as pointed out above our AC is hardly tank-worthy.

This is my plan:

1. Power Attack
3. Step Up
5. Raging Vitality
7. Extra Rage power – Strength Surge
9. Improved Overrun
11. Charge Through
13. Raging Brutality (add Con bonus to damage, costs 3 rnds of rage)
15. Dazing Assault

Barbarian 3
Barbarian 4 Rage Power - Lesser Beast Totem
Barbarian 5
Barb 6 Rage Power – Lesser Elemental Rage, DR/2-
Barb 7
Barb 8 Rage Power - Beast Totem
Barb 9
Barb 10 Rage Power – Elemental Rage, DR/4
Barb 11
Barb 12 Rage Power - Greater Beast Totem
Barb 13
Barb 14 Rage Power – Come & Get Me! or Greater Elemental Rage (for use with falchion)

Not the most optimised build. Sadly I wasn't especially familiar with the PF rules when we started it else I would've just went full Barb, but it's been a lot of fun and I am the Jekyll and Hyde of the party - broody yet playful as myself and murderous, lustful, beast while raging.

Looking forward to charging through opponents with full elemental rage attacks off the end of a pounce with a furious amulet of mighty fists. =)


Jaryn Wildmane wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Feral Combat Training and Dragon Style will pump this.

This would be a heavy feat sink for the already feat starved barbarian. Weapon Focus and IUS would be largely useless. You also have to go through the pain on enhancing your weapons with an amulet of mighty fists which is overpriced.

This build will be great in the lower levels but once you get to high level play i think you will find that Manufactured weapons will do better damage overall with cheaper enhancements and better crit ranges, and will have an easier time overcoming DR.

Yes, my experience is something like that. I'm at level 10 and I get out more from my greatsword (+ useless bite) than from claws+bite: still a very solid option but it will lag behind more and more in the future.

This is especially true when haste come into play.

Still, a build focusing on feral combat training would be unbelievably good (damage-wise) at mid level, but the feat cost is staggering, especially if you try to apply it also to your bite.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

It is just text assuming you are attacking with weapons as well. This is why they call out full attacks.

It is never referred to as a secondary attack, and by default, bites are primary.

I admit the language of the trait sucks.

Unfortunately this is incorrect, this trait has a correction on it stating it is ALWAYS going to be secondary and suffer the -5 penalty. The correction is from JJ but does not have his usual disclaimer on it here.

James Jacobs wrote:
In this trait's case, the bite attack granted is specifically weaker than a bite attack you might have as part of your race, since traits are supposed to be not all that powerful. So in this case, ANY additional attack you make, including 2 claw attacks, would reduce your chances to hit with the bite attack.

As for the DR, I've found it not to be that big of a deal honestly. Invest a feat into Eldritch Claws for Magic and Silver, you already have dr/slashing for the claws and DR/(B/P/S) from the bite. Carry the usual Cold Iron/Adamantine back up weapon and you're good for all of the DR encounters you run into.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I will take JJ's opinion under advisement, as I often do, but unless it is errata'd to call it out as secondary, RAW, it is not.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Feral Combat Training and Dragon Style will pump this.

I am running similar build why would you take feral combat training? if you dont have Flurry?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Feral Combat Training allows all feats, and effects to treat the Natural Attack as a unarmed strike.
Most builds that take advantage of the feat do not have flurry.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I will take JJ's opinion under advisement, as I often do, but unless it is errata'd to call it out as secondary, RAW, it is not.

I think RAW on Tusked is explicitly clear... "If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5." It says "part of a full attack", not "part of a full attack with manufactured weapons," you were just making that assumption based on other, more general rules about full attacks with nat weapons. It's NOT a secondary attack btw (so you still get full strength bonus), it's just at a -5.

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